Reed & Stewarts Take

Ctrefz787
Posts
121
Joined
3/5/2013
Location
Bakersfield, CA US
2/13/2014 5:52pm Edited Date/Time 2/14/2014 10:23pm
Both Reed and Stewart say the tracks have gotten easier and the bikes have gotten better. There was some words about the two stroke days taking more talent to ride. What's everyone take on the interviews and statements by these two great riders posted on racerx?
|
IceMan446
Posts
4671
Joined
1/10/2010
Location
Sacramento, CA US
2/13/2014 5:59pm
They are both 100% correct.
GuyB
Posts
35693
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
1274th
2/13/2014 6:12pm
I think all of that is true, and people will use all of it to make their own arguments about what should or shouldn't happen in pro racing.
BAMX
Posts
2840
Joined
1/22/2012
Location
Fallbrook, CA US
2/13/2014 6:12pm
I would say that the new bikes make the tracks easier. They have way more motor and better suspension. Now, the 250's can seat bounce the triples right out of a corner. Back then, the 125's couldn't always do them. It wasn't that uncommon to have the guys in the back of the 125 class not doing the triple, at least not consistently.
GuyB
Posts
35693
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
1274th
2/13/2014 6:26pm
The technique is a lot better in both classes. After the first turn last week, the primary technique was for guys to bring the front wheel up high over the first jump, wheel-tap the next double, hit the following triple, then do the quad. Years ago? One or two guys might do that. Now, quite a few of them would do it.

I wonder how much harder those guys would think the current tracks would be if they were on a two-stroke.

The Shop

sargeant
Posts
72
Joined
1/22/2014
Location
CA
2/13/2014 6:30pm
GuyB wrote:
The technique is a lot better in both classes. After the first turn last week, the primary technique was for guys to bring the front wheel...
The technique is a lot better in both classes. After the first turn last week, the primary technique was for guys to bring the front wheel up high over the first jump, wheel-tap the next double, hit the following triple, then do the quad. Years ago? One or two guys might do that. Now, quite a few of them would do it.

I wonder how much harder those guys would think the current tracks would be if they were on a two-stroke.
good point boss!
Outsider
Posts
10637
Joined
1/29/2009
Location
Huntington Beach, CA US
2/13/2014 6:32pm
If that is the case, and it probably is, shouldn't those two guys be absolutely waxing the competition due their higher skill level and additional experience?
bama205
Posts
1487
Joined
10/7/2010
Location
Williamson County, TN US
2/13/2014 6:35pm
no, its sort an equalizer. like tax brackets, total bullshit.
lostboy819
Posts
11493
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Somewhere, CO US
Fantasy
1568th
2/13/2014 6:38pm
Coming up sort on a double or triple was a common occurrence, you hardly ever see it now. Remember the panic rev.
2/13/2014 6:45pm
Outsider not neceasarly. But four strokes are the big equalizer. I'm pretty confident if everyone in the 450 _main had to ride smokers, you would c alot bigger gaps between the top10.the way I look at it, at my level which is vet expert, u get guys who completely suck on a smoker, but can do pretty decent on a 450, which u can pretty much leave in 1 gear on the whole track. Smokers u actually have to know how to ride to go fast.I love both. I have a sic 13.5 dungey bike but miss my 12 300 sx.
Ctrefz787
Posts
121
Joined
3/5/2013
Location
Bakersfield, CA US
2/13/2014 6:50pm
BAMX wrote:
I would say that the new bikes make the tracks easier. They have way more motor and better suspension. Now, the 250's can seat bounce the...
I would say that the new bikes make the tracks easier. They have way more motor and better suspension. Now, the 250's can seat bounce the triples right out of a corner. Back then, the 125's couldn't always do them. It wasn't that uncommon to have the guys in the back of the 125 class not doing the triple, at least not consistently.
Do you think the same riders would be up front on two strokes? Aside from Stewart and Reed they've already proved they can.
stangkag
Posts
1399
Joined
9/28/2011
Location
Maybell, CO US
2/13/2014 6:58pm
Barcia is nasty on a smoker...
shredder22
Posts
793
Joined
12/18/2013
Location
HI US
2/13/2014 7:01pm Edited Date/Time 2/13/2014 7:02pm
BAMX wrote:
I would say that the new bikes make the tracks easier. They have way more motor and better suspension. Now, the 250's can seat bounce the...
I would say that the new bikes make the tracks easier. They have way more motor and better suspension. Now, the 250's can seat bounce the triples right out of a corner. Back then, the 125's couldn't always do them. It wasn't that uncommon to have the guys in the back of the 125 class not doing the triple, at least not consistently.
Ctrefz787 wrote:
Do you think the same riders would be up front on two strokes? Aside from Stewart and Reed they've already proved they can.
I think the top guys would. RV, RD, etc. I think it's the mid tier guys like Weimer, Tickle, etc who are clearly not as elite as RV/JS but are able to have pretty close lap times.

2 stroke is all about the power band
IWreckALot
Posts
8676
Joined
3/12/2011
Location
Fort Worth, TX US
2/13/2014 7:02pm
There is something about a champion that makes me think they would be equally dominant on any bike you give them. The cream always finds it's way to the top. Heard that many times I know. But it's the way I believe.
Crush
Posts
20957
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney AU
2/13/2014 7:38pm
I don't see how anyone can watch a vid of now and then and not see how much steeper a lot of the jumps were and how much more dirt there was... Obviously the bikes are better, but just like JT/Reed said in the pods the other week, there's no way it's just 10 seconds a lap of bike improvement. That's lower, faster obstacles and more open track designs.
TannerMxer
Posts
1474
Joined
1/5/2010
Location
McKinney, TX US
2/13/2014 8:24pm Edited Date/Time 2/13/2014 8:25pm
Outsider not neceasarly. But four strokes are the big equalizer. I'm pretty confident if everyone in the 450 _main had to ride smokers, you would c...
Outsider not neceasarly. But four strokes are the big equalizer. I'm pretty confident if everyone in the 450 _main had to ride smokers, you would c alot bigger gaps between the top10.the way I look at it, at my level which is vet expert, u get guys who completely suck on a smoker, but can do pretty decent on a 450, which u can pretty much leave in 1 gear on the whole track. Smokers u actually have to know how to ride to go fast.I love both. I have a sic 13.5 dungey bike but miss my 12 300 sx.
I really think that if 4-strokes never came around, James Stewart could have rode 100% in 2006 to battle for the title and probably would have won; 85% in 2007-2013 and won everything. RV2, RD5, CR22, JB51, TC41, etc, etc are really, really freakin' good... JS7 was just exponentially better than EVERYONE on a 2-stroke. James' talent level on a 2-stroke from 2002 - ? would have been like MC when he burst into 250's... it just wasn't even close and probably never would have been.


Then again, if JS7 won SX titles in '06, '07, '08', '09, '10, etc... he'd probably already be retired. If 2-strokes stayed, I think JS7 has 90+ SX wins and has numerous undefeated outdoor titles.
josh8811
Posts
502
Joined
11/13/2011
Location
Kaysville, UT US
2/13/2014 8:53pm
GuyB wrote:
The technique is a lot better in both classes. After the first turn last week, the primary technique was for guys to bring the front wheel...
The technique is a lot better in both classes. After the first turn last week, the primary technique was for guys to bring the front wheel up high over the first jump, wheel-tap the next double, hit the following triple, then do the quad. Years ago? One or two guys might do that. Now, quite a few of them would do it.

I wonder how much harder those guys would think the current tracks would be if they were on a two-stroke.
sargeant wrote:
good point boss!
What he said!
shredder22
Posts
793
Joined
12/18/2013
Location
HI US
2/13/2014 8:56pm Edited Date/Time 2/13/2014 8:56pm
TannerMxer wrote:
I really think that if 4-strokes never came around, James Stewart could have rode 100% in 2006 to battle for the title and probably would have...
I really think that if 4-strokes never came around, James Stewart could have rode 100% in 2006 to battle for the title and probably would have won; 85% in 2007-2013 and won everything. RV2, RD5, CR22, JB51, TC41, etc, etc are really, really freakin' good... JS7 was just exponentially better than EVERYONE on a 2-stroke. James' talent level on a 2-stroke from 2002 - ? would have been like MC when he burst into 250's... it just wasn't even close and probably never would have been.


Then again, if JS7 won SX titles in '06, '07, '08', '09, '10, etc... he'd probably already be retired. If 2-strokes stayed, I think JS7 has 90+ SX wins and has numerous undefeated outdoor titles.
I know James was unheard of on his 125 but I don't think he beats RC outdoors 06. You're talking like James was God.
malachi177
Posts
2281
Joined
12/18/2010
Location
B.C., BC CA
2/13/2014 9:03pm
Crush wrote:
I don't see how anyone can watch a vid of now and then and not see how much steeper a lot of the jumps were and...
I don't see how anyone can watch a vid of now and then and not see how much steeper a lot of the jumps were and how much more dirt there was... Obviously the bikes are better, but just like JT/Reed said in the pods the other week, there's no way it's just 10 seconds a lap of bike improvement. That's lower, faster obstacles and more open track designs.
Also, jumps are a lot closer to the corners now then they used to be back in the smoker days.
munsch121
Posts
814
Joined
2/7/2009
Location
Middletown, NY US
2/13/2014 9:07pm
I definitely think the tracks were more technical and bikes more difficult to ride back in the day, ESPECIALLY on a slick track. HOWEVER....I think when a mistake is made NOW the price you pay is more severe. I also think the tracks and bikes have closed the gap between the privateer and the factory guy.
TannerMxer
Posts
1474
Joined
1/5/2010
Location
McKinney, TX US
2/13/2014 9:08pm
TannerMxer wrote:
I really think that if 4-strokes never came around, James Stewart could have rode 100% in 2006 to battle for the title and probably would have...
I really think that if 4-strokes never came around, James Stewart could have rode 100% in 2006 to battle for the title and probably would have won; 85% in 2007-2013 and won everything. RV2, RD5, CR22, JB51, TC41, etc, etc are really, really freakin' good... JS7 was just exponentially better than EVERYONE on a 2-stroke. James' talent level on a 2-stroke from 2002 - ? would have been like MC when he burst into 250's... it just wasn't even close and probably never would have been.


Then again, if JS7 won SX titles in '06, '07, '08', '09, '10, etc... he'd probably already be retired. If 2-strokes stayed, I think JS7 has 90+ SX wins and has numerous undefeated outdoor titles.
shredder22 wrote:
I know James was unheard of on his 125 but I don't think he beats RC outdoors 06. You're talking like James was God.
James was faster than Ricky on 2-strokes; the moment James entered the class he was more than a half second faster in SX and he hadn't even harnessed all of that talent on a 250 yet. In 2005, he won half the races he raced against Chad and Ricky. He would have for sure challenged Ricky in 2006 outdoors. Did you forget the part where James was 28/31 for wins in 125 outdoors? That's a ridiculous statistic. Sorry, but James REALLY was that much better than EVERYONE when he was on a 2-stroke. He had to make the switch to a 4-stroke right when we probably would have started to see an absolutely destructive tear on the class.


2007-???? wouldn't have been a contest at all.
shredder22
Posts
793
Joined
12/18/2013
Location
HI US
2/13/2014 9:16pm
TannerMxer wrote:
James was faster than Ricky on 2-strokes; the moment James entered the class he was more than a half second faster in SX and he hadn't...
James was faster than Ricky on 2-strokes; the moment James entered the class he was more than a half second faster in SX and he hadn't even harnessed all of that talent on a 250 yet. In 2005, he won half the races he raced against Chad and Ricky. He would have for sure challenged Ricky in 2006 outdoors. Did you forget the part where James was 28/31 for wins in 125 outdoors? That's a ridiculous statistic. Sorry, but James REALLY was that much better than EVERYONE when he was on a 2-stroke. He had to make the switch to a 4-stroke right when we probably would have started to see an absolutely destructive tear on the class.


2007-???? wouldn't have been a contest at all.
I didn't say anything about SX. And I know James was unbelievable on his 125. I just think RIcky would have found some way to win or at least contend outdoors 06 with James. That's just my opinion, And do I think any of these newer guys would be as good as James on a 2 stroke? Maybe not, but you can't say guaranteed, because the fact is EVERYBODY rides 4 strokes now. You don't know how RV would do against James on 2 stroke 250's
CR250Rider
Posts
6706
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Moses Lake, WA US
2/13/2014 10:06pm
Bubba on a 125 was like nothing we see today.
Uncleof2
Posts
1276
Joined
5/10/2008
Location
Silverdale, WA US
2/13/2014 10:10pm
Outsider not neceasarly. But four strokes are the big equalizer. I'm pretty confident if everyone in the 450 _main had to ride smokers, you would c...
Outsider not neceasarly. But four strokes are the big equalizer. I'm pretty confident if everyone in the 450 _main had to ride smokers, you would c alot bigger gaps between the top10.the way I look at it, at my level which is vet expert, u get guys who completely suck on a smoker, but can do pretty decent on a 450, which u can pretty much leave in 1 gear on the whole track. Smokers u actually have to know how to ride to go fast.I love both. I have a sic 13.5 dungey bike but miss my 12 300 sx.
TannerMxer wrote:
I really think that if 4-strokes never came around, James Stewart could have rode 100% in 2006 to battle for the title and probably would have...
I really think that if 4-strokes never came around, James Stewart could have rode 100% in 2006 to battle for the title and probably would have won; 85% in 2007-2013 and won everything. RV2, RD5, CR22, JB51, TC41, etc, etc are really, really freakin' good... JS7 was just exponentially better than EVERYONE on a 2-stroke. James' talent level on a 2-stroke from 2002 - ? would have been like MC when he burst into 250's... it just wasn't even close and probably never would have been.


Then again, if JS7 won SX titles in '06, '07, '08', '09, '10, etc... he'd probably already be retired. If 2-strokes stayed, I think JS7 has 90+ SX wins and has numerous undefeated outdoor titles.
I don't think James Stewart would have won any more on the 2 strokes than he would have on the 4-strokes
because we would have still had to beat RC, CR, and RV during all those years and I don't think he would have.
He would probably have about 48 wins and only 2 championships. RC and CR were awesome on 2 strokes and'
I watched RV ride a two stroke like it wasn't going to last a moto. Champions are champions and they all have to
deal with the changing times, tracks, and bikes. MC won 72 races on a smoker and nobody would have beat that
record. In my opinion.
lostboy819
Posts
11493
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Somewhere, CO US
Fantasy
1568th
2/13/2014 10:15pm
CR250Rider wrote:
Bubba on a 125 was like nothing we see today.
Bubba use to crash on a 125 like nothing we see today, remember Las Vegas, we felt the ground shake 40 rows up
theToothPerry
Posts
538
Joined
11/23/2010
Location
Santa Clarita, CA US
2/13/2014 10:59pm
Remember in 05 when Stewart had to race against Carmichael who was on a 450 for outdoors? He was pretty damn close. If RC wouldve been on an RM250 i think Stew wouldve won convincingly. He was that much better of a 2 stroke rider. Hands down.
Juss
Posts
1102
Joined
4/14/2011
Location
Bakersfield, CA US
2/13/2014 11:36pm
Outsider not neceasarly. But four strokes are the big equalizer. I'm pretty confident if everyone in the 450 _main had to ride smokers, you would c...
Outsider not neceasarly. But four strokes are the big equalizer. I'm pretty confident if everyone in the 450 _main had to ride smokers, you would c alot bigger gaps between the top10.the way I look at it, at my level which is vet expert, u get guys who completely suck on a smoker, but can do pretty decent on a 450, which u can pretty much leave in 1 gear on the whole track. Smokers u actually have to know how to ride to go fast.I love both. I have a sic 13.5 dungey bike but miss my 12 300 sx.
TannerMxer wrote:
I really think that if 4-strokes never came around, James Stewart could have rode 100% in 2006 to battle for the title and probably would have...
I really think that if 4-strokes never came around, James Stewart could have rode 100% in 2006 to battle for the title and probably would have won; 85% in 2007-2013 and won everything. RV2, RD5, CR22, JB51, TC41, etc, etc are really, really freakin' good... JS7 was just exponentially better than EVERYONE on a 2-stroke. James' talent level on a 2-stroke from 2002 - ? would have been like MC when he burst into 250's... it just wasn't even close and probably never would have been.


Then again, if JS7 won SX titles in '06, '07, '08', '09, '10, etc... he'd probably already be retired. If 2-strokes stayed, I think JS7 has 90+ SX wins and has numerous undefeated outdoor titles.
Uncleof2 wrote:
I don't think James Stewart would have won any more on the 2 strokes than he would have on the 4-strokes because we would have still...
I don't think James Stewart would have won any more on the 2 strokes than he would have on the 4-strokes
because we would have still had to beat RC, CR, and RV during all those years and I don't think he would have.
He would probably have about 48 wins and only 2 championships. RC and CR were awesome on 2 strokes and'
I watched RV ride a two stroke like it wasn't going to last a moto. Champions are champions and they all have to
deal with the changing times, tracks, and bikes. MC won 72 races on a smoker and nobody would have beat that
record. In my opinion.
Ive seen some vids of RV on a 2 stroke 80 and he was flying. Im sure he would of been just as fast on a 250 2 stroke. I don't agree with you on JS. IMO had he not had to switch to the 4 pig he would of had a lot more wins & at least another title. RV would for sure, be just a tough on a 2 stroke, but I don't feel the same about a lot of the younger guys.
rcm406
Posts
3639
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Atlanta, GA US
2/14/2014 4:11am
TannerMxer wrote:
I really think that if 4-strokes never came around, James Stewart could have rode 100% in 2006 to battle for the title and probably would have...
I really think that if 4-strokes never came around, James Stewart could have rode 100% in 2006 to battle for the title and probably would have won; 85% in 2007-2013 and won everything. RV2, RD5, CR22, JB51, TC41, etc, etc are really, really freakin' good... JS7 was just exponentially better than EVERYONE on a 2-stroke. James' talent level on a 2-stroke from 2002 - ? would have been like MC when he burst into 250's... it just wasn't even close and probably never would have been.


Then again, if JS7 won SX titles in '06, '07, '08', '09, '10, etc... he'd probably already be retired. If 2-strokes stayed, I think JS7 has 90+ SX wins and has numerous undefeated outdoor titles.
Uncleof2 wrote:
I don't think James Stewart would have won any more on the 2 strokes than he would have on the 4-strokes because we would have still...
I don't think James Stewart would have won any more on the 2 strokes than he would have on the 4-strokes
because we would have still had to beat RC, CR, and RV during all those years and I don't think he would have.
He would probably have about 48 wins and only 2 championships. RC and CR were awesome on 2 strokes and'
I watched RV ride a two stroke like it wasn't going to last a moto. Champions are champions and they all have to
deal with the changing times, tracks, and bikes. MC won 72 races on a smoker and nobody would have beat that
record. In my opinion.
Juss wrote:
Ive seen some vids of RV on a 2 stroke 80 and he was flying. Im sure he would of been just as fast on a...
Ive seen some vids of RV on a 2 stroke 80 and he was flying. Im sure he would of been just as fast on a 250 2 stroke. I don't agree with you on JS. IMO had he not had to switch to the 4 pig he would of had a lot more wins & at least another title. RV would for sure, be just a tough on a 2 stroke, but I don't feel the same about a lot of the younger guys.
Then why did RV used to get waxed by Alessi when they were on 2 strokes? I think if there is one rider who has benefited the most by going 4 stroke, it's RV. I don't know what it was, but something just clicked for RV once he got on a 4 stroke.
Crush
Posts
20957
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney AU
2/14/2014 4:53am
rcm406 wrote:
Then why did RV used to get waxed by Alessi when they were on 2 strokes? I think if there is one rider who has benefited...
Then why did RV used to get waxed by Alessi when they were on 2 strokes? I think if there is one rider who has benefited the most by going 4 stroke, it's RV. I don't know what it was, but something just clicked for RV once he got on a 4 stroke.
Something clicked for RV when he got on a big bike. The engine wasn't the issue.
2/14/2014 5:19am
Crush wrote:
I don't see how anyone can watch a vid of now and then and not see how much steeper a lot of the jumps were and...
I don't see how anyone can watch a vid of now and then and not see how much steeper a lot of the jumps were and how much more dirt there was... Obviously the bikes are better, but just like JT/Reed said in the pods the other week, there's no way it's just 10 seconds a lap of bike improvement. That's lower, faster obstacles and more open track designs.
But hasn't Reed been vocal on several occasions since the "newer style" tracks have been in use about them not having any flow to it?

Seems to me that they are all about flow now compared to the tracks of old.
Crush
Posts
20957
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney AU
2/14/2014 5:50am
Flow can be the up and down rhythm but also lap in general... the I'd say he's more referencing the dumb walls and weird face bump dragon's backs that they've been using in an effort to increase the lap times.

Fact is, 450 or not, make the faces and lips steeper and slower and the guys are only gonna jump what is ok. The 3-4 they were doing was what, 7 jumps all the same, perfect angle etc. If that was back in the day, a couple might be small, tall, different angles etc

Post a reply to: Reed & Stewarts Take

The Latest