Racing and Tax Implications

JBlain619
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For my friends here on Vital that may be deducting their MX racing. This is the most recent case. My wife just shared this with me. (She is a15+ CPA and has her Masters in tax) Although it is car racing, it still applies. There was a case in the last couple of years that was related to motocross with the same outcome. Make sure you have a great CPA!

http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20TCO%2020170614C88/STETTNER%20v.%20C…
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kkawboy14
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6/22/2017 6:34am Edited Date/Time 6/22/2017 8:38am
I right off my own racing and riding as a "marketing tool" not as a racing sponsorship.
mx_563
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6/22/2017 6:35am
Interesting. I bet there are some people in the MX industry that are anxiously awaiting the statute of limitations to run out on their past endeavors. heh heh.
JBlain619
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6/22/2017 6:37am
kkawboy14 wrote:
I right off my own racing and riding as a "marketing tool" not as a racing sponsorship.
A lot do...refer to my last sentence! Laughing

The Shop

JBlain619
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6/22/2017 6:42am
Panic_Rev wrote:
May I have the cliff note version?
Basically the court determined that this entity was not "racing for profit" and thus it is a hobby and the taxpayer was not allowed to deduct expenses incurred from the racing to offset income from another source.
kkawboy14
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6/22/2017 6:45am
kkawboy14 wrote:
I right off my own racing and riding as a "marketing tool" not as a racing sponsorship.
JBlain619 wrote:
A lot do...refer to my last sentence! Laughing
Yeah my CPA was like that's the best way to do it!
SPYGUY
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6/22/2017 7:08am
kkawboy14 wrote:
I right off my own racing and riding as a "marketing tool" not as a racing sponsorship.
JBlain619 wrote:
A lot do...refer to my last sentence! Laughing
kkawboy14 wrote:
Yeah my CPA was like that's the best way to do it!
What you code expenses as doesn't matter to the IRS. What does matter is what the expenses consist of and if they're necessary to the business.
lostboy819
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6/22/2017 8:04am
kkawboy14 wrote:
I right off my own racing and riding as a "marketing tool" not as a racing sponsorship.
And the IRS would disallow it if you were audited, but I can guarantee that you don't make enough money for the IRS to even audit you or give you a second thought and you are not even on their radar.
huck
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6/22/2017 8:09am
JBlain619 wrote:
A lot do...refer to my last sentence! Laughing
kkawboy14 wrote:
Yeah my CPA was like that's the best way to do it!
SPYGUY wrote:
What you code expenses as doesn't matter to the IRS. What does matter is what the expenses consist of and if they're necessary to the business.
Yep, and they can decide if they deem it 'advertising' or not... Gotta love the Federal Government.
K-dubbb
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6/22/2017 8:12am Edited Date/Time 6/22/2017 8:13am
Eventually, if you aren't realizing a profit CRA/IRS will no longer let you deduct those losses because it is not realistically an attempt to generate a profit - running at a foreseeable loss and using the deductions as an advantage to lower taxable income.

Although sponsoring a race team for marketing purposes is allowable - that is expected to be a financial loss (with hopes of generating a return through exposure and community involvement.)

I am a CPA.
APLMAN99
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6/22/2017 8:20am
K-dubbb wrote:
Eventually, if you aren't realizing a profit CRA/IRS will no longer let you deduct those losses because it is not realistically an attempt to generate a...
Eventually, if you aren't realizing a profit CRA/IRS will no longer let you deduct those losses because it is not realistically an attempt to generate a profit - running at a foreseeable loss and using the deductions as an advantage to lower taxable income.

Although sponsoring a race team for marketing purposes is allowable - that is expected to be a financial loss (with hopes of generating a return through exposure and community involvement.)

I am a CPA.
So from another direction.......

Amazon operated at a loss nearly forever. What did they do to be allowed to continue to deduct expenses?
JoJmoto
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6/22/2017 8:34am
Yeah I was told more then 3 years of righting it off and the IRS considers it a hobby even if its "Advertising".
K-dubbb
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6/22/2017 8:37am
K-dubbb wrote:
Eventually, if you aren't realizing a profit CRA/IRS will no longer let you deduct those losses because it is not realistically an attempt to generate a...
Eventually, if you aren't realizing a profit CRA/IRS will no longer let you deduct those losses because it is not realistically an attempt to generate a profit - running at a foreseeable loss and using the deductions as an advantage to lower taxable income.

Although sponsoring a race team for marketing purposes is allowable - that is expected to be a financial loss (with hopes of generating a return through exposure and community involvement.)

I am a CPA.
APLMAN99 wrote:
So from another direction.......

Amazon operated at a loss nearly forever. What did they do to be allowed to continue to deduct expenses?
Good question, and you're right. I am an entrepreneur and am on a few projects that are 5-8 years old that have yet to drive any revenue - arriving at a loss each year.

With these businesses, the time, money and development spent is building value for a future revenue or information that has financial value, reward or potential.

The businesses I was referring too:
"Eventually, if you aren't realizing a profit CRA/IRS will no longer let you deduct those losses because it is not realistically an attempt to generate a profit - running at a foreseeable loss and using the deductions as an advantage to lower taxable income."

When IRS comes to verify that the losses incurred are in-fact building value for the future - your "motocross business" that has nothing that can be converted to future revenues, is proven to be realizing losses with no intentions of converting these expenditures into a future profit.

Hopefully that helps.

kkawboy14
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6/22/2017 8:39am
JBlain619 wrote:
A lot do...refer to my last sentence! Laughing
kkawboy14 wrote:
Yeah my CPA was like that's the best way to do it!
SPYGUY wrote:
What you code expenses as doesn't matter to the IRS. What does matter is what the expenses consist of and if they're necessary to the business.
Your wrong
kkawboy14
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6/22/2017 8:40am
kkawboy14 wrote:
I right off my own racing and riding as a "marketing tool" not as a racing sponsorship.
lostboy819 wrote:
And the IRS would disallow it if you were audited, but I can guarantee that you don't make enough money for the IRS to even audit...
And the IRS would disallow it if you were audited, but I can guarantee that you don't make enough money for the IRS to even audit you or give you a second thought and you are not even on their radar.
I have been audited twice, I make 2.5 million a year
K-dubbb
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6/22/2017 8:41am
JoJmoto wrote:
Yeah I was told more then 3 years of righting it off and the IRS considers it a hobby even if its "Advertising".
Sure, and as most professionals say "it depends"

But, I would argue that sponsoring an MX team is the same as buying jerseys for a soft ball team - which is community sponsorship.

On the flip side, everything also comes at an extent - if the sponsoring business is nearin a loss because of this "sponsorship" then this expenditure clearly isn't aimed at leveraging exposure through advertising.....but pay for an outside hobby.

If you have more than one sponsor (a number of businesses) this also builds the case for rightfully intended sponsorship.
kkawboy14
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6/22/2017 8:42am Edited Date/Time 6/22/2017 8:47am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Yeah my CPA was like that's the best way to do it!
SPYGUY wrote:
What you code expenses as doesn't matter to the IRS. What does matter is what the expenses consist of and if they're necessary to the business.
huck wrote:
Yep, and they can decide if they deem it 'advertising' or not... Gotta love the Federal Government.
It is either advertising or it isn't! A rapper can purchase things for a video shoot and right it off, bling and so forth.

I have both of my companies names on my bike and Trailors and have proof of work completed thru MX contacts.

I dont write a check to myself and call it advertising, I write a check or credit card to others and post it as advertising. In an audit they don't ask you every line item but checks written to yourself they would pick it apart.
SPYGUY
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6/22/2017 8:51am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Yeah my CPA was like that's the best way to do it!
SPYGUY wrote:
What you code expenses as doesn't matter to the IRS. What does matter is what the expenses consist of and if they're necessary to the business.
kkawboy14 wrote:
Your wrong
So if I buy myself a boat through my company as long as I code it as "marketing", everything will be hunky dory?

Get real.
SPYGUY
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6/22/2017 8:53am
kkawboy14 wrote:
It is either advertising or it isn't! A rapper can purchase things for a video shoot and right it off, bling and so forth. I have...
It is either advertising or it isn't! A rapper can purchase things for a video shoot and right it off, bling and so forth.

I have both of my companies names on my bike and Trailors and have proof of work completed thru MX contacts.

I dont write a check to myself and call it advertising, I write a check or credit card to others and post it as advertising. In an audit they don't ask you every line item but checks written to yourself they would pick it apart.
Roughly how much are you spending on your personal racing that the company is paying for?

A few hundred here and there won't raise any flags but I know people personally that are buying bikes and toy haulers through their business and think that it's okay because they stick a decal on it that has their company name.
K-dubbb
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6/22/2017 8:59am
SPYGUY wrote:
What you code expenses as doesn't matter to the IRS. What does matter is what the expenses consist of and if they're necessary to the business.
kkawboy14 wrote:
Your wrong
SPYGUY wrote:
So if I buy myself a boat through my company as long as I code it as "marketing", everything will be hunky dory?

Get real.
Sorry, but you're out of context and just being spiteful.

Is that boat in a community of racers, sponsors and taking part in competition? NO

If a company sponsors a sailing team to get a boat and compete in an environment of others, then yes the expenditures of the boat can be written off.

And also, you need to own a business to sponsor anything. If you work for someone else - this conversation doesn't apply to you.
TeamGreen
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6/22/2017 9:01am
SPYGUY wrote:
What you code expenses as doesn't matter to the IRS. What does matter is what the expenses consist of and if they're necessary to the business.
kkawboy14 wrote:
Your wrong
SPYGUY wrote:
So if I buy myself a boat through my company as long as I code it as "marketing", everything will be hunky dory?

Get real.
They DO NOT LIKE Boats &/or Aircraft. What they really don't like is when you have any of these things LEGITIMATELY.

Laughing
SPYGUY
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6/22/2017 9:14am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Your wrong
SPYGUY wrote:
So if I buy myself a boat through my company as long as I code it as "marketing", everything will be hunky dory?

Get real.
K-dubbb wrote:
Sorry, but you're out of context and just being spiteful. Is that boat in a community of racers, sponsors and taking part in competition? NO If...
Sorry, but you're out of context and just being spiteful.

Is that boat in a community of racers, sponsors and taking part in competition? NO

If a company sponsors a sailing team to get a boat and compete in an environment of others, then yes the expenditures of the boat can be written off.

And also, you need to own a business to sponsor anything. If you work for someone else - this conversation doesn't apply to you.
Thank you for the primer.

Obviously I understand that each scenario must be looked at on a case by case basis. My point, however, was that how something is coded doesn't legitimize an expenditure that would have been disallowed otherwise, as was alluded to in kkawboy14's original post.
K-dubbb
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6/22/2017 9:30am
Certainly, case by case and within reason.....I hope I left enough information that you can make guided decisions....

Otherwise, when you're blasting the lake on your boat or giving a podium speech at the track - stay away from the babes, if you're married - that will crush your wealth and make all of this irrelevant Grinning

Cheers guys.
huck
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6/22/2017 10:12am
kkawboy14 wrote:
I right off my own racing and riding as a "marketing tool" not as a racing sponsorship.
lostboy819 wrote:
And the IRS would disallow it if you were audited, but I can guarantee that you don't make enough money for the IRS to even audit...
And the IRS would disallow it if you were audited, but I can guarantee that you don't make enough money for the IRS to even audit you or give you a second thought and you are not even on their radar.
kkawboy14 wrote:
I have been audited twice, I make 2.5 million a year
Do you take naps and order pizzas? Or does it even matter?
Akira
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6/22/2017 10:19am
Say hello to the IRS they gotta be already here sniffing for future victims /:
steveada
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6/22/2017 10:33am
APLMAN99 wrote:
So from another direction.......

Amazon operated at a loss nearly forever. What did they do to be allowed to continue to deduct expenses?
These same rules do not apply to corporations.
lostboy819
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6/22/2017 10:36am
kkawboy14 wrote:
I right off my own racing and riding as a "marketing tool" not as a racing sponsorship.
lostboy819 wrote:
And the IRS would disallow it if you were audited, but I can guarantee that you don't make enough money for the IRS to even audit...
And the IRS would disallow it if you were audited, but I can guarantee that you don't make enough money for the IRS to even audit you or give you a second thought and you are not even on their radar.
kkawboy14 wrote:
I have been audited twice, I make 2.5 million a year
I take it back then because you defiantly make enough for the IRS to pay attention. What business are you in and do you need a business partner ? Wink
TeamGreen
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6/22/2017 10:52am
K-dubbb wrote:
Certainly, case by case and within reason.....I hope I left enough information that you can make guided decisions.... Otherwise, when you're blasting the lake on your...
Certainly, case by case and within reason.....I hope I left enough information that you can make guided decisions....

Otherwise, when you're blasting the lake on your boat or giving a podium speech at the track - stay away from the babes, if you're married - that will crush your wealth and make all of this irrelevant Grinning

Cheers guys.
Best Post in the thread
steveada
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6/22/2017 10:55am
Personally, I think the majority of the people who ride or have kids that ride, and try to write it off as a business expense, are being dishonest. Really, other than local mx shops, people who sell gear or mx parts etc., is there really any value there? How does Joes Plumbing in Crackerville,FL benefit from having its company name plastered on a toy hauler at a race 300 miles away? Does anyone even pay any attention to what businesses are listed on the fender of someones dirtbike at an amateur race when most of them are just whatever the graphics company decided to stick on their stock graphics? If you are just there to race or let your kid race, and you are not actively trying to sell something, handing out flyers to promote something etc, then you are there for a hobby or recreation and have no business writing it off.
kkawboy14
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6/22/2017 10:59am Edited Date/Time 6/22/2017 11:05am
SPYGUY wrote:
What you code expenses as doesn't matter to the IRS. What does matter is what the expenses consist of and if they're necessary to the business.
kkawboy14 wrote:
Your wrong
SPYGUY wrote:
So if I buy myself a boat through my company as long as I code it as "marketing", everything will be hunky dory?

Get real.
talk to your CPA about it!

Many companies have boats "to entertain their customers" as part of their companies marketing plan that they write off!

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