RV's hole card

WhKnuckle
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Edited Date/Time 4/13/2013 9:48am
So, how is it that the most competitive SX season in decades is becoming a Ryan Villopoto romp? That's what I wondered before the Houston SX. And now I know why that is.

Watching the race, I started thinking about the running legend Steve Prefontaine. Pre was a bit of an enigma, in the sense that he didn't have the fast, leg-blur cadence of a Jim Ryun, the feather-soft stride of Frank Shorter or the pure endurance of Kenny Moore. If the race was about those things, he wasn't going to win. When Pre ran, there was no doubt that it was hard work, and there was no doubt that other men had talents that Pre didn't. But when he died in a car crash in 1975, Pre owned every American record from 2 miles through 10,000 meters. He did that because, as he said, "Some people race to see who's fastest. I race to see who has the most guts."

Well, if this SX series was about pure riding artistry coupled with a limitless capacity for risk acceptance, nobody would be able to touch James Stewart. If it was about passion and energy, Trey Canard or Justin Barcia would be walking away with it right now. If it was about cool, calm, analytical racing that capitalizes on smart decisions and endless physical fitness, Ryan Dungey would be your guy. But somehow Villo has made it a series about who has the most guts, and nobody - NOBODY - has more guts than he does. You can watch him ride and he looks like Pre; it doesn't look easy, it doesn't look pretty, and sometimes it doesn't look like a work of art, but one thing is easy to see...it doesn't look like anyone can beat him. Nobody has the guts that he does. I'm sure Pre would approve.
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Cigaro
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4/10/2013 9:17pm
RV has the best avg. starting position out there right now. Tough to beat him when the few riders that can run with him keep getting beat off the line.
TDeath21
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4/10/2013 9:20pm
What he's done the past 7 weeks has truly amazed me. Assuming he wins this SX championship, in my opinion that puts him as the 3rd best SX rider of all time. I was at St Louis and the way he just carved through the pack in one of the most stacked fields we've ever seen was a sight to see. Fan or not, everyone should respect what we're witnessing him do right now, because the last 5 weeks, we've seen one of the best at his best.
RM127
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4/10/2013 9:27pm
TDeath21 wrote:
What he's done the past 7 weeks has truly amazed me. Assuming he wins this SX championship, in my opinion that puts him as the 3rd...
What he's done the past 7 weeks has truly amazed me. Assuming he wins this SX championship, in my opinion that puts him as the 3rd best SX rider of all time. I was at St Louis and the way he just carved through the pack in one of the most stacked fields we've ever seen was a sight to see. Fan or not, everyone should respect what we're witnessing him do right now, because the last 5 weeks, we've seen one of the best at his best.
in front of reed?.....
TDeath21
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4/10/2013 9:31pm Edited Date/Time 4/10/2013 9:36pm
TDeath21 wrote:
What he's done the past 7 weeks has truly amazed me. Assuming he wins this SX championship, in my opinion that puts him as the 3rd...
What he's done the past 7 weeks has truly amazed me. Assuming he wins this SX championship, in my opinion that puts him as the 3rd best SX rider of all time. I was at St Louis and the way he just carved through the pack in one of the most stacked fields we've ever seen was a sight to see. Fan or not, everyone should respect what we're witnessing him do right now, because the last 5 weeks, we've seen one of the best at his best.
RM127 wrote:
in front of reed?.....
Absolutely. 3 championships to 2.

Edit: On second thought, absolutely is the wrong word. I think it's really hard to compare riders at completely different points in their career. I think that comparison should wait until both are retired.

The Shop

WhKnuckle
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4/10/2013 9:46pm
TDeath21 wrote:
What he's done the past 7 weeks has truly amazed me. Assuming he wins this SX championship, in my opinion that puts him as the 3rd...
What he's done the past 7 weeks has truly amazed me. Assuming he wins this SX championship, in my opinion that puts him as the 3rd best SX rider of all time. I was at St Louis and the way he just carved through the pack in one of the most stacked fields we've ever seen was a sight to see. Fan or not, everyone should respect what we're witnessing him do right now, because the last 5 weeks, we've seen one of the best at his best.
RM127 wrote:
in front of reed?.....
TDeath21 wrote:
Absolutely. 3 championships to 2. Edit: On second thought, absolutely is the wrong word. I think it's really hard to compare riders at completely different points...
Absolutely. 3 championships to 2.

Edit: On second thought, absolutely is the wrong word. I think it's really hard to compare riders at completely different points in their career. I think that comparison should wait until both are retired.
IMO, greatness doesn't have to wait for retirement, because greatness isn't an objective analysis of the record. Greatness is a subjective, visceral thing, which is why we can enjoy arguing about it. IMO, the greatest SX rider ever was MC; second was RC. I think Villo is third, edging out Stewart.
TDeath21
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4/10/2013 9:53pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
IMO, greatness doesn't have to wait for retirement, because greatness isn't an objective analysis of the record. Greatness is a subjective, visceral thing, which is why...
IMO, greatness doesn't have to wait for retirement, because greatness isn't an objective analysis of the record. Greatness is a subjective, visceral thing, which is why we can enjoy arguing about it. IMO, the greatest SX rider ever was MC; second was RC. I think Villo is third, edging out Stewart.
Yeah that is a good point. 3-8 is highly debatable right now between Hannah, Stewart, Villopoto, Reed, Stanton, and Johnson. 1-2 are clear cut, but I have a feeling when Villopoto's career is done, 1-3 will be clear cut.
WhKnuckle
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4/10/2013 10:01pm
Another Pre quote that you could imagine Villo thinking: "The best pace is a suicide pace. And today is a good day to die."
Crush
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4/10/2013 10:04pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
IMO, greatness doesn't have to wait for retirement, because greatness isn't an objective analysis of the record. Greatness is a subjective, visceral thing, which is why...
IMO, greatness doesn't have to wait for retirement, because greatness isn't an objective analysis of the record. Greatness is a subjective, visceral thing, which is why we can enjoy arguing about it. IMO, the greatest SX rider ever was MC; second was RC. I think Villo is third, edging out Stewart.
TDeath21 wrote:
Yeah that is a good point. 3-8 is highly debatable right now between Hannah, Stewart, Villopoto, Reed, Stanton, and Johnson. 1-2 are clear cut, but I...
Yeah that is a good point. 3-8 is highly debatable right now between Hannah, Stewart, Villopoto, Reed, Stanton, and Johnson. 1-2 are clear cut, but I have a feeling when Villopoto's career is done, 1-3 will be clear cut.
Yeah it's difficult really...

Especially when you look at phases of careers and overall wins etc...

James definitely had times where he was whooping on Reedy, 07 was horrible to watch, but Reedy was the only guy to consecutively beat down on RC more than once or twice...

Stanton was 3 time champ but not as many wins etc...

Hannah was so dominant but SX was basically MX then, even if it might have been more jumpy than MX at the time...

Also, Ricky had 48 sx wins I think? RV will track that down I believe... he's at 30-32 now and carving em out. And RV is gonna be a 3 peat Champ, which neither Chad nor James have done or will do. RV will probably be the 2nd best SXer of all time, and MX i'd put him top 3... Maybe 2... Kid's an animal
Husqerdo
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4/10/2013 10:38pm
Cigaro wrote:
RV has the best avg. starting position out there right now. Tough to beat him when the few riders that can run with him keep getting...
RV has the best avg. starting position out there right now. Tough to beat him when the few riders that can run with him keep getting beat off the line.
Cig, to you and I, that is the main difference right now, to the RV extremists not important. What I can't figure out is how does RV get the starts consistently? Then once in front, he does what he has too, no surprise there he is that good. But, the starts, whats up with that?
Outsider
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4/10/2013 11:14pm Edited Date/Time 4/11/2013 12:15am
Cigaro wrote:
RV has the best avg. starting position out there right now. Tough to beat him when the few riders that can run with him keep getting...
RV has the best avg. starting position out there right now. Tough to beat him when the few riders that can run with him keep getting beat off the line.
Husqerdo wrote:
Cig, to you and I, that is the main difference right now, to the RV extremists not important. What I can't figure out is how does...
Cig, to you and I, that is the main difference right now, to the RV extremists not important. What I can't figure out is how does RV get the starts consistently? Then once in front, he does what he has too, no surprise there he is that good. But, the starts, whats up with that?
You guys make a cute coupleLaughing

If you listen to "winners circle" on the homepage, he talks about the start. Basically, it's a separate race, and he will go all out to get that position.

IMO, RD isn't willing to do that, he just isn't that guy, and what's funny to me, is when I would race, I was a whole lot more RD than RV. If the other guy wants to kill himself in the first turn, or first couple laps, go ahead.. you'll see me later on in the race. (hopefully)
mx757
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4/10/2013 11:35pm
RVs secret to success? Millsaps getting hurt. Plain and simple. Millsaps went from being what, 18 points up, to 3 points behind in 1 week? Never finishing outside of the top 4, to suddenly finishing midpack. at Daytona, and 5th-9th since then. Cryan is going to luck into a championship this year.
mxpappy711
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4/11/2013 3:51am
You guys with the good start argument kill me. Does the gate drop for all riders at the same time? Have any of you been behind a gate on a bike? It should not bother you that one guy is finishing better than the others right now, just enjoy the races. Someone faster will be here before you know it. Luck has nothing to do with it. Its a race someone is going to win. DM was not lucky when he was winning, neither is RV.
yota
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4/11/2013 6:27am
Prefontaine was from my home town, Coos Bay Oregon. I remember seeing him running thru town all the time when I was young. tragic auto accident stopped him short of greatness.
Tumblin
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4/11/2013 6:55am
Great analogy whknuckle, if you go to the post "Great Watch" highlighting the MXDN with "60 years and a day" you'll see that under displaced 250F holeshot from the inside, parking Sharkey and a few others in route to not one but two holies. All by a great combination of planning, preperation, Pro Circuit, timing & technic. But also trumping the field at Budds Creek and many other starts and beat downs throughout his pro career is RV's determination and certainly guts.
WhKnuckle
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4/11/2013 7:49am
yota wrote:
Prefontaine was from my home town, Coos Bay Oregon. I remember seeing him running thru town all the time when I was young. tragic auto accident...
Prefontaine was from my home town, Coos Bay Oregon. I remember seeing him running thru town all the time when I was young. tragic auto accident stopped him short of greatness.
I was on the starting line for the Houston half marathon, and it was about 40 degrees and raining hard, and I started shivering a little because I was dressed pretty light for those conditions and we were standing there for a long time. The guy standing next to me said, "No problem. For Pre, this is just a normal day."
Uncleof2
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4/11/2013 7:50am
mx757 wrote:
RVs secret to success? Millsaps getting hurt. Plain and simple. Millsaps went from being what, 18 points up, to 3 points behind in 1 week? Never...
RVs secret to success? Millsaps getting hurt. Plain and simple. Millsaps went from being what, 18 points up, to 3 points behind in 1 week? Never finishing outside of the top 4, to suddenly finishing midpack. at Daytona, and 5th-9th since then. Cryan is going to luck into a championship this year.
Plain and simple you just make things up. RV beat Davi 5 out the first 8 races and all 7 times since the injury. RV's 2 bad
races accounted for most of Davi's lead. You got the midpack right at Daytona as he finished 10th and since then has
finished 4th, 2nd, 5th. Davi had a great first half of the season and still could win the championship, but luck has nothing to
do with RV1 winning the championship if he does. Sounds like your the one who is Cryan, and your term should just about
be up as Commander of chief.
JeepnMike
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4/11/2013 8:07am Edited Date/Time 4/11/2013 8:09am
mxpappy711 wrote:
You guys with the good start argument kill me. Does the gate drop for all riders at the same time? Have any of you been behind...
You guys with the good start argument kill me. Does the gate drop for all riders at the same time? Have any of you been behind a gate on a bike? It should not bother you that one guy is finishing better than the others right now, just enjoy the races. Someone faster will be here before you know it. Luck has nothing to do with it. Its a race someone is going to win. DM was not lucky when he was winning, neither is RV.
Saying RV is an expert at starts in this thread is killing me too. I forget if it was round 2 and 3 or not, but both times he lined up in gate one, and both times his starts were freaking horrid. I understand gate 1 can be favorable, but for the first turns he was picking the first gate for were not good tracks to be starting that far in. He definitely figured out anything that was holding him back though and has his starts a heck of a lot better. He hasn't been perfect this season off the gate is all I am saying. He has been borderline robotic since.

Has anybody noticed that his corner technique looks a little different? Maybe my weekend warrior armchair SX racing skills need glasses, but to me it looks like he isn't "rounding" the corners, he is knifing them and getting the bike back to vertical and straight and on the meat of the rear tire as fast as he can an on the gas harder. Definitely using the throttle to steer a bit more and get the bike going straight faster. Maybe this is a natural progression with the way folks are having a hard time with their front ends in corners. Either way and even if I am partially nuts, it is working.
peelout
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4/11/2013 8:13am
Cigaro wrote:
RV has the best avg. starting position out there right now. Tough to beat him when the few riders that can run with him keep getting...
RV has the best avg. starting position out there right now. Tough to beat him when the few riders that can run with him keep getting beat off the line.
average starting position or not, RV has passed every guy on the line to win. when have RD, DM, JS, CR, etc. passed RV to win this year?

no shit RV get's good starts, he isn't willing to get a mid-pack start and it shows. he also isn't willing to sit behind a guy for multiple laps when he knows he can pass (alessi in the first lap this weekend). there are two races every main event, the race to the first corner and the race to the finish.

have you ever raced before? i'm thinking not
Cigaro
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4/11/2013 10:32am
Cigaro wrote:
RV has the best avg. starting position out there right now. Tough to beat him when the few riders that can run with him keep getting...
RV has the best avg. starting position out there right now. Tough to beat him when the few riders that can run with him keep getting beat off the line.
peelout wrote:
average starting position or not, RV has passed every guy on the line to win. when have RD, DM, JS, CR, etc. passed RV to win...
average starting position or not, RV has passed every guy on the line to win. when have RD, DM, JS, CR, etc. passed RV to win this year?

no shit RV get's good starts, he isn't willing to get a mid-pack start and it shows. he also isn't willing to sit behind a guy for multiple laps when he knows he can pass (alessi in the first lap this weekend). there are two races every main event, the race to the first corner and the race to the finish.

have you ever raced before? i'm thinking not
The classic "I bet you never raced before" line... It doesn't take a genius to know that when certain guys are running basically the same lap times you're not gonna catch someone getting poor starts in a 15 min race. RV started right behind James at Atlanta, explain why he couldn't get around him since he's a guy who can make passes so easy.
Husqerdo
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4/11/2013 10:43am
Outsider wrote:
You guys make a cute couple:laugh: If you listen to "winners circle" on the homepage, he talks about the start. Basically, it's a separate race, and...
You guys make a cute coupleLaughing

If you listen to "winners circle" on the homepage, he talks about the start. Basically, it's a separate race, and he will go all out to get that position.

IMO, RD isn't willing to do that, he just isn't that guy, and what's funny to me, is when I would race, I was a whole lot more RD than RV. If the other guy wants to kill himself in the first turn, or first couple laps, go ahead.. you'll see me later on in the race. (hopefully)
So " It's a separate race", thanks for that earth shattering info! The mentality of "see me later" doesn't work in SX, and you think RD doesn't know this but you do? To top it off, comparing your lack of aggressiveness to Dungey is absolutely hilarious,....IMO.
Derpin' DJ
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4/11/2013 10:46am
peelout wrote:
average starting position or not, RV has passed every guy on the line to win. when have RD, DM, JS, CR, etc. passed RV to win...
average starting position or not, RV has passed every guy on the line to win. when have RD, DM, JS, CR, etc. passed RV to win this year?

no shit RV get's good starts, he isn't willing to get a mid-pack start and it shows. he also isn't willing to sit behind a guy for multiple laps when he knows he can pass (alessi in the first lap this weekend). there are two races every main event, the race to the first corner and the race to the finish.

have you ever raced before? i'm thinking not
Ya say that, but has he actually passed Dungey in any of the mains this year? Serious question, I don't know the answer. But I have a feeling he hasn't
Husqerdo
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4/11/2013 10:53am
Derpin' DJ wrote:
Ya say that, but has he actually passed Dungey in any of the mains this year? Serious question, I don't know the answer. But I have...
Ya say that, but has he actually passed Dungey in any of the mains this year? Serious question, I don't know the answer. But I have a feeling he hasn't
No, RV has not passed RD after the first corner, same true about RD not passing RV. They both have passed DM though.
pilotdude
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4/11/2013 11:03am Edited Date/Time 4/11/2013 11:07am
mx757 wrote:
RVs secret to success? Millsaps getting hurt. Plain and simple. Millsaps went from being what, 18 points up, to 3 points behind in 1 week? Never...
RVs secret to success? Millsaps getting hurt. Plain and simple. Millsaps went from being what, 18 points up, to 3 points behind in 1 week? Never finishing outside of the top 4, to suddenly finishing midpack. at Daytona, and 5th-9th since then. Cryan is going to luck into a championship this year.
Why'd you change your signature line to disguise the Anybody But Villopoto (A.B.V) club? Afraid of people seeing you for the chickenshit little hater that you are?

EDIT: Not only are you chickenshit little hater, but you are fucking gutless coward as well.
Cigaro
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4/11/2013 11:05am
Derpin' DJ wrote:
Ya say that, but has he actually passed Dungey in any of the mains this year? Serious question, I don't know the answer. But I have...
Ya say that, but has he actually passed Dungey in any of the mains this year? Serious question, I don't know the answer. But I have a feeling he hasn't


Oh wait! My bad... That was the race RV started right behind JS and RD... Cool
TriRacer27
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4/11/2013 12:07pm
Cigaro wrote:
RV has the best avg. starting position out there right now. Tough to beat him when the few riders that can run with him keep getting...
RV has the best avg. starting position out there right now. Tough to beat him when the few riders that can run with him keep getting beat off the line.
Sadly that's as simple of an explanation as is needed. He gets better starts than most everyone except Alessi and with this much speed parity, that's all it takes. If Dungey had started ahead of RV in the last 5 races it could just as well be RD with 5 straight wins.

Did you see how RV's Kawi just shot out ahead of everyone else in Houston? He also seems to be smarter and more aggressive about his first turn. Several times this year RD has had the jump on him to the first turn and then RV somehow sneaks past while RD gets stuck behind other riders.
Cigaro
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4/11/2013 12:17pm
TriRacer27 wrote:
Sadly that's as simple of an explanation as is needed. He gets better starts than most everyone except Alessi and with this much speed parity, that's...
Sadly that's as simple of an explanation as is needed. He gets better starts than most everyone except Alessi and with this much speed parity, that's all it takes. If Dungey had started ahead of RV in the last 5 races it could just as well be RD with 5 straight wins.

Did you see how RV's Kawi just shot out ahead of everyone else in Houston? He also seems to be smarter and more aggressive about his first turn. Several times this year RD has had the jump on him to the first turn and then RV somehow sneaks past while RD gets stuck behind other riders.
Apparently my explanation was invalid to the pro's since I have never raced before. It's because RV doesn't sit multiple laps behind other guys. Well except for the time when he sat behind Goerke at SD and James at Atlanta for multiple laps.


And yes RV and the Kawi are dialed in at the starts. Houston no different. His reaction time and technique is great and he's probably hitting his shift points flawlessly.
Outsider
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4/11/2013 12:28pm
Husqerdo wrote:
So " It's a separate race", thanks for that earth shattering info! The mentality of "see me later" doesn't work in SX, and you think RD...
So " It's a separate race", thanks for that earth shattering info! The mentality of "see me later" doesn't work in SX, and you think RD doesn't know this but you do? To top it off, comparing your lack of aggressiveness to Dungey is absolutely hilarious,....IMO.
I was paraphrasing what he said in the interview that I referenced.

And, actually, Dungey is slightly less agressive than me...LOL

No, I was trying to make a point, but, I knew you would jump on that one... you're welcome for the slow pitch!
4/11/2013 12:56pm
mx757 wrote:
RVs secret to success? Millsaps getting hurt. Plain and simple. Millsaps went from being what, 18 points up, to 3 points behind in 1 week? Never...
RVs secret to success? Millsaps getting hurt. Plain and simple. Millsaps went from being what, 18 points up, to 3 points behind in 1 week? Never finishing outside of the top 4, to suddenly finishing midpack. at Daytona, and 5th-9th since then. Cryan is going to luck into a championship this year.
pilotdude wrote:
Why'd you change your signature line to disguise the Anybody But Villopoto (A.B.V) club? Afraid of people seeing you for the chickenshit little hater that you...
Why'd you change your signature line to disguise the Anybody But Villopoto (A.B.V) club? Afraid of people seeing you for the chickenshit little hater that you are?

EDIT: Not only are you chickenshit little hater, but you are fucking gutless coward as well.
From behind a keyboard. LOL
pilotdude
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4/11/2013 1:31pm
mx757 wrote:
RVs secret to success? Millsaps getting hurt. Plain and simple. Millsaps went from being what, 18 points up, to 3 points behind in 1 week? Never...
RVs secret to success? Millsaps getting hurt. Plain and simple. Millsaps went from being what, 18 points up, to 3 points behind in 1 week? Never finishing outside of the top 4, to suddenly finishing midpack. at Daytona, and 5th-9th since then. Cryan is going to luck into a championship this year.
pilotdude wrote:
Why'd you change your signature line to disguise the Anybody But Villopoto (A.B.V) club? Afraid of people seeing you for the chickenshit little hater that you...
Why'd you change your signature line to disguise the Anybody But Villopoto (A.B.V) club? Afraid of people seeing you for the chickenshit little hater that you are?

EDIT: Not only are you chickenshit little hater, but you are fucking gutless coward as well.
From behind a keyboard. LOL
I'd say it right to his face and yours too little man.

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