RV doing all the right things

peelout
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9/2/2014 10:41am Edited Date/Time 9/2/2014 10:41am
pilotdude wrote:
I don't recall people saying Dungey was in "a different league" based on the Colorado MXdN. As to 2009, I guess since you want to discount...
I don't recall people saying Dungey was in "a different league" based on the Colorado MXdN. As to 2009, I guess since you want to discount crashes now, I'm sure you will gladly discount Tomac's crash last year when he was clearly faster than Roczen in Germany.

No? Then you are guilty of a double standard.
RY4N37 wrote:
I have said before that Tomac's ride in the first moto last year was one of the most impressive things I've ever seen, it was awesome...
I have said before that Tomac's ride in the first moto last year was one of the most impressive things I've ever seen, it was awesome to be there and witness it and I have a great deal of respect for him for going for the win when he could've settled for solid points.

I do also remember though he couldn't beat Roczen when they raced throughout the whole second moto.
pilotdude wrote:
Wow, really? Second moto? Roczen must be in a "different league" than Tomac.
one of them did win the multiple SX races, the most outdoor moto's and overalls, and the 450 outdoor title this year....

just sayin

Wink
philG
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9/2/2014 10:50am
No they're not. The GP field isn't as deep as the AMA field. Take your top and our top five and they are not on the...
No they're not. The GP field isn't as deep as the AMA field. Take your top and our top five and they are not on the same level. Guys like RV, Dungey, Canard, and Tomac (probably Barcia as well) would finish ahead of all your top five most of the time (with the exception of AC).

And our MX2 field is much deeper as well.
RY4N37 wrote:
Never heard so much BS in my entire life. The fact that you can say that the AMA has a deeper field when guys can qualify...
Never heard so much BS in my entire life. The fact that you can say that the AMA has a deeper field when guys can qualify 25th and be 16 seconds off the ace is frankly embarrassing. At a number of GP's this year the top 20 were split by the same time difference as the top 4 in the AMA. Riders in the top 10 are getting lapped when it's not muddy or sandy or anything other than normal. Barcia was slower than Shaun Simpson at the MXoN last year. Hes not even the fastest man in Britain! In fact just looking again he was also slower than Charlier who had never ridden a 450 in his life before then
MotoMo165 wrote:
The AMA field is deeper... You guys don't even have full gates, right? Imagine the lappers if there were full gates.. I looked at a few...
The AMA field is deeper... You guys don't even have full gates, right? Imagine the lappers if there were full gates.. I looked at a few lap times for a few nats and the 25th rider isn't 16 seconds off the leaders fastest lap, I noticed it dropped dramatically with the 30-40 place riders, but they are all privateers. And even some privateers were within 14 seconds of the top guys lap times on some tracks.
Why else would Roczen, Musquin (and probably Herlings in the future) come here? Our top Five in the 450's (Stewart?, Villo, Dunngey, Barcia, Canard, Tomac, Roczen) Those are 7 guys that could potentially get top five and most have won a race. Do you guys have 5-7 riders that could possibly win in the GP's?
The AMA field is weak as ... pick a moto... any race, that aint a mudder and look at the times... first 4 are gone , then there is a 3, 4 or even 5 second gap to the rest..

Thats 5th or 6th... see where 5 seconds off gets you in a GP. At most rounds thats 20th .

Albertson was 15 seconds off at Unadilla.. thats not even in the same zip code.



9/2/2014 12:20pm
RY4N37 wrote:
Never heard so much BS in my entire life. The fact that you can say that the AMA has a deeper field when guys can qualify...
Never heard so much BS in my entire life. The fact that you can say that the AMA has a deeper field when guys can qualify 25th and be 16 seconds off the ace is frankly embarrassing. At a number of GP's this year the top 20 were split by the same time difference as the top 4 in the AMA. Riders in the top 10 are getting lapped when it's not muddy or sandy or anything other than normal. Barcia was slower than Shaun Simpson at the MXoN last year. Hes not even the fastest man in Britain! In fact just looking again he was also slower than Charlier who had never ridden a 450 in his life before then
MotoMo165 wrote:
The AMA field is deeper... You guys don't even have full gates, right? Imagine the lappers if there were full gates.. I looked at a few...
The AMA field is deeper... You guys don't even have full gates, right? Imagine the lappers if there were full gates.. I looked at a few lap times for a few nats and the 25th rider isn't 16 seconds off the leaders fastest lap, I noticed it dropped dramatically with the 30-40 place riders, but they are all privateers. And even some privateers were within 14 seconds of the top guys lap times on some tracks.
Why else would Roczen, Musquin (and probably Herlings in the future) come here? Our top Five in the 450's (Stewart?, Villo, Dunngey, Barcia, Canard, Tomac, Roczen) Those are 7 guys that could potentially get top five and most have won a race. Do you guys have 5-7 riders that could possibly win in the GP's?
philG wrote:
The AMA field is weak as ... pick a moto... any race, that aint a mudder and look at the times... first 4 are gone...
The AMA field is weak as ... pick a moto... any race, that aint a mudder and look at the times... first 4 are gone , then there is a 3, 4 or even 5 second gap to the rest..

Thats 5th or 6th... see where 5 seconds off gets you in a GP. At most rounds thats 20th .

Albertson was 15 seconds off at Unadilla.. thats not even in the same zip code.



You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the exception of Cairoli. All you're saying is that the GP guys are collectively slower, not that you have a deeper field. That's just insane and we won't even get into the MX2 class where your leader has such a big points lead that even with a broken leg he's still leading. That sure is a DEEP field. GrinningGrinningGrinningDry
tprice07
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9/2/2014 12:26pm
MotoMo165 wrote:
The AMA field is deeper... You guys don't even have full gates, right? Imagine the lappers if there were full gates.. I looked at a few...
The AMA field is deeper... You guys don't even have full gates, right? Imagine the lappers if there were full gates.. I looked at a few lap times for a few nats and the 25th rider isn't 16 seconds off the leaders fastest lap, I noticed it dropped dramatically with the 30-40 place riders, but they are all privateers. And even some privateers were within 14 seconds of the top guys lap times on some tracks.
Why else would Roczen, Musquin (and probably Herlings in the future) come here? Our top Five in the 450's (Stewart?, Villo, Dunngey, Barcia, Canard, Tomac, Roczen) Those are 7 guys that could potentially get top five and most have won a race. Do you guys have 5-7 riders that could possibly win in the GP's?
philG wrote:
The AMA field is weak as ... pick a moto... any race, that aint a mudder and look at the times... first 4 are gone...
The AMA field is weak as ... pick a moto... any race, that aint a mudder and look at the times... first 4 are gone , then there is a 3, 4 or even 5 second gap to the rest..

Thats 5th or 6th... see where 5 seconds off gets you in a GP. At most rounds thats 20th .

Albertson was 15 seconds off at Unadilla.. thats not even in the same zip code.



You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the...
You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the exception of Cairoli. All you're saying is that the GP guys are collectively slower, not that you have a deeper field. That's just insane and we won't even get into the MX2 class where your leader has such a big points lead that even with a broken leg he's still leading. That sure is a DEEP field. GrinningGrinningGrinningDry
It's too bad they don't have a big race to settle this all once and for all.....

The Shop

RY4N37
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9/2/2014 12:26pm
You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the...
You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the exception of Cairoli. All you're saying is that the GP guys are collectively slower, not that you have a deeper field. That's just insane and we won't even get into the MX2 class where your leader has such a big points lead that even with a broken leg he's still leading. That sure is a DEEP field. GrinningGrinningGrinningDry
Jeez do you even watch the GP's. Milsaps? Is this some kind of joke?

Herlings is on a different level to any other 250 rider on the planet. A bloke who can hardly walk wins the Oakley Bomb every week in your 250 class ffs
9/2/2014 12:31pm Edited Date/Time 9/2/2014 12:31pm
You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the...
You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the exception of Cairoli. All you're saying is that the GP guys are collectively slower, not that you have a deeper field. That's just insane and we won't even get into the MX2 class where your leader has such a big points lead that even with a broken leg he's still leading. That sure is a DEEP field. GrinningGrinningGrinningDry
RY4N37 wrote:
Jeez do you even watch the GP's. Milsaps? Is this some kind of joke? Herlings is on a different level to any other 250 rider on...
Jeez do you even watch the GP's. Milsaps? Is this some kind of joke?

Herlings is on a different level to any other 250 rider on the planet. A bloke who can hardly walk wins the Oakley Bomb every week in your 250 class ffs
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put him in there.

Herlings has not proved that he can cut it here against our guys. He went out and broke his leg while losing a race to some minicycle racer before we could find out. And with that broken leg and missing numerous races, he still has a lead in the series and may win the title. You call that field deep? GrinningGrinningGrinningGrinningDry
Barrett57
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9/2/2014 12:31pm Edited Date/Time 9/2/2014 12:31pm
You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the...
You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the exception of Cairoli. All you're saying is that the GP guys are collectively slower, not that you have a deeper field. That's just insane and we won't even get into the MX2 class where your leader has such a big points lead that even with a broken leg he's still leading. That sure is a DEEP field. GrinningGrinningGrinningDry
Do you watch the GPs?
mx836
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9/2/2014 12:39pm Edited Date/Time 9/2/2014 12:40pm
You bitches haven't found anything better to argue over yet? It's only been like 15 years that the same crying has been going back and forth. Anyone ever notice how it's the blokes from Britain that get their panties in a bunch the most? I have. Cool Good day kids.
zook11
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9/2/2014 12:47pm Edited Date/Time 9/2/2014 12:55pm
philG wrote:
The AMA field is weak as ... pick a moto... any race, that aint a mudder and look at the times... first 4 are gone...
The AMA field is weak as ... pick a moto... any race, that aint a mudder and look at the times... first 4 are gone , then there is a 3, 4 or even 5 second gap to the rest..

Thats 5th or 6th... see where 5 seconds off gets you in a GP. At most rounds thats 20th .

Albertson was 15 seconds off at Unadilla.. thats not even in the same zip code.



You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the...
You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the exception of Cairoli. All you're saying is that the GP guys are collectively slower, not that you have a deeper field. That's just insane and we won't even get into the MX2 class where your leader has such a big points lead that even with a broken leg he's still leading. That sure is a DEEP field. GrinningGrinningGrinningDry
tprice07 wrote:
It's too bad they don't have a big race to settle this all once and for all.....
You mean the one where the US hasn't sent it's best rider the last few years?


All I remember last year was Tomac on a 250 coming from way back. Also putting in laptimes way faster than Cairoli on his 400, on his home turf.
philG
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9/2/2014 12:47pm
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put...
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put him in there.

Herlings has not proved that he can cut it here against our guys. He went out and broke his leg while losing a race to some minicycle racer before we could find out. And with that broken leg and missing numerous races, he still has a lead in the series and may win the title. You call that field deep? GrinningGrinningGrinningGrinningDry
Millsaps???

Jeez..

The more i get to see your 'top guys' , the more ordinary they all look. Tomac was on it in Germany , the other two were just ordinary , seeing Dungey getting passed by Valentin Guillod , and haveing to explain the 'merican next to me that he just did european champs and wasnt a GP rider yet... and Nicolletti, who is supposed to be good , looked plain ordinary , i've yet to see Baggett not get lapped on a sunday , and Barcia looks fast , but cant run the times..

RV is a class act , Tomac is good , the rest are no better than our guys .

zook11
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9/2/2014 12:50pm Edited Date/Time 9/2/2014 1:07pm
You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the...
You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the exception of Cairoli. All you're saying is that the GP guys are collectively slower, not that you have a deeper field. That's just insane and we won't even get into the MX2 class where your leader has such a big points lead that even with a broken leg he's still leading. That sure is a DEEP field. GrinningGrinningGrinningDry
Barrett57 wrote:
Do you watch the GPs?
I do, I almost make it halfway before I pass out.
Outsider
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9/2/2014 12:51pm
zook11 wrote:
I do, I almost make it halfway before I pass out.
Laughing
mx836
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9/2/2014 12:52pm
Amazing how everyone thinks the opposing series' riders are inferior. Ever think you are both wrong? God forbid you morans meet in the middle and quit your bickering.
9/2/2014 12:53pm Edited Date/Time 9/28/2014 5:28am
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put...
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put him in there.

Herlings has not proved that he can cut it here against our guys. He went out and broke his leg while losing a race to some minicycle racer before we could find out. And with that broken leg and missing numerous races, he still has a lead in the series and may win the title. You call that field deep? GrinningGrinningGrinningGrinningDry
philG wrote:
Millsaps??? Jeez.. The more i get to see your 'top guys' , the more ordinary they all look. Tomac was on it in Germany , the...
Millsaps???

Jeez..

The more i get to see your 'top guys' , the more ordinary they all look. Tomac was on it in Germany , the other two were just ordinary , seeing Dungey getting passed by Valentin Guillod , and haveing to explain the 'merican next to me that he just did european champs and wasnt a GP rider yet... and Nicolletti, who is supposed to be good , looked plain ordinary , i've yet to see Baggett not get lapped on a sunday , and Barcia looks fast , but cant run the times..

RV is a class act , Tomac is good , the rest are no better than our guys .

.
Barrett57
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9/2/2014 12:54pm
zook11 wrote:
I do, I almost make it halfway before I pass out.
Yeah, of course you do.
RY4N37
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9/2/2014 12:56pm
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put...
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put him in there.

Herlings has not proved that he can cut it here against our guys. He went out and broke his leg while losing a race to some minicycle racer before we could find out. And with that broken leg and missing numerous races, he still has a lead in the series and may win the title. You call that field deep? GrinningGrinningGrinningGrinningDry
Here we go then, here's the proof. Last 5 rounds from each series. Gap back to 5th and how far 5th was off on lap time:

Utah:
Moto 1- Grant was 5th, 1min 19 behind the leader, 3.4 off on laptime
Moto 2- Metclfe 5th, 1min 8 behind the leader, 3.6 off on laptime

Lommel:
Moto 1- Strijbos 5th, 21.2 secs behind the leader, 0.1 off on laptime
Moto 2- De Reuver 5th, 32.9 behind leader, 0.7 off on laptime

Indiana: (muddy i know)
Moto 1- Metcalfe 5th, 1:58 behind, 6.9 off
Moto 2- Grant 5th, 58.9 behind, 5.1 off

Loket:
Moto 1- Simpson 23.8 behind, 1.5 off
Moto 2- Frossard 58.1 behind, 2.4 off

Unadilla:
Moto 1- Short 1:22 behind, 3.8 off
Moto 2- Peick 1:36 behind, 4.1 off

Hyvinkaa:
Moto 1- Strijbos 24.1 behind, 0.5 off
Moto 2- Ferris 31.0 behind, 3.2 off

Washougal:
Moto 1- Metcalfe 59.5 behind, 4.1 off
Moto 2- Short 1:2 behind, 5.4 off

Uddevalla:
Moto 1- Frossard 15.0 behind, 0.01 off
Moto 2- Searle 22.6 behind, 1.3 off

Millville:
Moto 1- Grant 1:00 behind, 3.8 off
Moto 2- Grant 1:35 behind, 5.5 off

Teutschenthal:
Moto 1- Cairoli 11.6 behind, 0.2 faster than the winner
Moto 2- Simpson 26.6 behind, 1.5 off

In the last 5 rounds 8 0f the 10 races in the AMA have finished with 5th over a minute behind the leader. Compared to 0 in the GP's. Also, 7 different people have finished 5th in the last 10 GP motos compared to 5 in the AMA, which would indicate a deeper field. I don't know how much more comprehensively beaten you wanna get!

TDeath21
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9/2/2014 1:20pm Edited Date/Time 9/2/2014 1:22pm
RY4N37 wrote:
Here we go then, here's the proof. Last 5 rounds from each series. Gap back to 5th and how far 5th was off on lap time...
Here we go then, here's the proof. Last 5 rounds from each series. Gap back to 5th and how far 5th was off on lap time:

Utah:
Moto 1- Grant was 5th, 1min 19 behind the leader, 3.4 off on laptime
Moto 2- Metclfe 5th, 1min 8 behind the leader, 3.6 off on laptime

Lommel:
Moto 1- Strijbos 5th, 21.2 secs behind the leader, 0.1 off on laptime
Moto 2- De Reuver 5th, 32.9 behind leader, 0.7 off on laptime

Indiana: (muddy i know)
Moto 1- Metcalfe 5th, 1:58 behind, 6.9 off
Moto 2- Grant 5th, 58.9 behind, 5.1 off

Loket:
Moto 1- Simpson 23.8 behind, 1.5 off
Moto 2- Frossard 58.1 behind, 2.4 off

Unadilla:
Moto 1- Short 1:22 behind, 3.8 off
Moto 2- Peick 1:36 behind, 4.1 off

Hyvinkaa:
Moto 1- Strijbos 24.1 behind, 0.5 off
Moto 2- Ferris 31.0 behind, 3.2 off

Washougal:
Moto 1- Metcalfe 59.5 behind, 4.1 off
Moto 2- Short 1:2 behind, 5.4 off

Uddevalla:
Moto 1- Frossard 15.0 behind, 0.01 off
Moto 2- Searle 22.6 behind, 1.3 off

Millville:
Moto 1- Grant 1:00 behind, 3.8 off
Moto 2- Grant 1:35 behind, 5.5 off

Teutschenthal:
Moto 1- Cairoli 11.6 behind, 0.2 faster than the winner
Moto 2- Simpson 26.6 behind, 1.5 off

In the last 5 rounds 8 0f the 10 races in the AMA have finished with 5th over a minute behind the leader. Compared to 0 in the GP's. Also, 7 different people have finished 5th in the last 10 GP motos compared to 5 in the AMA, which would indicate a deeper field. I don't know how much more comprehensively beaten you wanna get!

It's easy to confuse a deeper field with dominant riders. For instance if you take the top five guys out of the AMA Nationals, we have an extremely deep field with Metcalfe leading the way. Do you think maybe the style of the tracks have something to do with it as well? Or the style of the riders in the series? The AMA Nationals have a pace from the drop of the gate that is extremely fast. The GP style is to settle in and let the track develop before pushing. There are several factors that add to the discrepancy.

What is undeniable is that most of the top guys in the world want to come to the US to race. When most top guys come to the US to race, that gives the AMA Nationals series a slight edge over the GPs if we are asking each other which series is more competitive. Which series is better? That has many other factors that go into it.

Cairoli and Herlings would be winning anywhere. If you look at a lot of our recent champions, a decent number of them aren't from the US and/or raced the GPs first. Reed, Wilson, Roczen, and Pourcel to name a few. It really sucks that our sport is one of the few where not all of the top guys in that particular sport consistently compete against each other.
philG
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9/2/2014 1:42pm
Deep field doesnt mean lots of riders.... you are either on the pace , or off it , and right now , apart from a 4 or 5 guys, everyone else is just making up the numbers, they just dont have the speed. Metcalfe coulndt even get a ride last year .. now he's the best of the rest ....

A deep field is one where any number of riders can , and do win , everyone marvels at how fast the guys can come through the field when the fall early , but how hard is it when they are 10 seconds a lap slower.

RV will be a great addition to the grid, but lets see how he fairs in a 30 rider field that are all with 5 seconds a lap... in fact with the riders coming up from MX2, i doubt it will be that far back.

It will be a great season , whatever , i hope everyone stays fit , and it turns out to be what could be a classic year




PressPassP
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9/2/2014 1:59pm
You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the...
You put your guys against RV, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Canard, Millspaps, and Barcia and see where they finish. They would all be well behind with the exception of Cairoli. All you're saying is that the GP guys are collectively slower, not that you have a deeper field. That's just insane and we won't even get into the MX2 class where your leader has such a big points lead that even with a broken leg he's still leading. That sure is a DEEP field. GrinningGrinningGrinningDry
RY4N37 wrote:
Jeez do you even watch the GP's. Milsaps? Is this some kind of joke? Herlings is on a different level to any other 250 rider on...
Jeez do you even watch the GP's. Milsaps? Is this some kind of joke?

Herlings is on a different level to any other 250 rider on the planet. A bloke who can hardly walk wins the Oakley Bomb every week in your 250 class ffs
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put...
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put him in there.

Herlings has not proved that he can cut it here against our guys. He went out and broke his leg while losing a race to some minicycle racer before we could find out. And with that broken leg and missing numerous races, he still has a lead in the series and may win the title. You call that field deep? GrinningGrinningGrinningGrinningDry
Dungey went 5-7 at Teuchenthal last year,that could easily happen in a GP,not all of the Euros were there either,after the top 5 the AMA 450's,it drops off and the depth isn't there like the GP's where they're bunched much tighter down the feild,with due respect,I really don't think a guy like Noren would regularly do the same in Europe

Herlings is faster than MX1 most weekends,he's so much better than the other MX2 guys but it's hard to guess how some of the AMA boys would do against them as the top 3 won't be at the MXdN

Herlings nearly lapped the current 450 champion last time they met if you want to play silly fuckers too SmileSmile
PressPassP
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9/2/2014 2:21pm Edited Date/Time 9/2/2014 2:31pm
RY4N37 wrote:
Here we go then, here's the proof. Last 5 rounds from each series. Gap back to 5th and how far 5th was off on lap time...
Here we go then, here's the proof. Last 5 rounds from each series. Gap back to 5th and how far 5th was off on lap time:

Utah:
Moto 1- Grant was 5th, 1min 19 behind the leader, 3.4 off on laptime
Moto 2- Metclfe 5th, 1min 8 behind the leader, 3.6 off on laptime

Lommel:
Moto 1- Strijbos 5th, 21.2 secs behind the leader, 0.1 off on laptime
Moto 2- De Reuver 5th, 32.9 behind leader, 0.7 off on laptime

Indiana: (muddy i know)
Moto 1- Metcalfe 5th, 1:58 behind, 6.9 off
Moto 2- Grant 5th, 58.9 behind, 5.1 off

Loket:
Moto 1- Simpson 23.8 behind, 1.5 off
Moto 2- Frossard 58.1 behind, 2.4 off

Unadilla:
Moto 1- Short 1:22 behind, 3.8 off
Moto 2- Peick 1:36 behind, 4.1 off

Hyvinkaa:
Moto 1- Strijbos 24.1 behind, 0.5 off
Moto 2- Ferris 31.0 behind, 3.2 off

Washougal:
Moto 1- Metcalfe 59.5 behind, 4.1 off
Moto 2- Short 1:2 behind, 5.4 off

Uddevalla:
Moto 1- Frossard 15.0 behind, 0.01 off
Moto 2- Searle 22.6 behind, 1.3 off

Millville:
Moto 1- Grant 1:00 behind, 3.8 off
Moto 2- Grant 1:35 behind, 5.5 off

Teutschenthal:
Moto 1- Cairoli 11.6 behind, 0.2 faster than the winner
Moto 2- Simpson 26.6 behind, 1.5 off

In the last 5 rounds 8 0f the 10 races in the AMA have finished with 5th over a minute behind the leader. Compared to 0 in the GP's. Also, 7 different people have finished 5th in the last 10 GP motos compared to 5 in the AMA, which would indicate a deeper field. I don't know how much more comprehensively beaten you wanna get!

TDeath21 wrote:
It's easy to confuse a deeper field with dominant riders. For instance if you take the top five guys out of the AMA Nationals, we have...
It's easy to confuse a deeper field with dominant riders. For instance if you take the top five guys out of the AMA Nationals, we have an extremely deep field with Metcalfe leading the way. Do you think maybe the style of the tracks have something to do with it as well? Or the style of the riders in the series? The AMA Nationals have a pace from the drop of the gate that is extremely fast. The GP style is to settle in and let the track develop before pushing. There are several factors that add to the discrepancy.

What is undeniable is that most of the top guys in the world want to come to the US to race. When most top guys come to the US to race, that gives the AMA Nationals series a slight edge over the GPs if we are asking each other which series is more competitive. Which series is better? That has many other factors that go into it.

Cairoli and Herlings would be winning anywhere. If you look at a lot of our recent champions, a decent number of them aren't from the US and/or raced the GPs first. Reed, Wilson, Roczen, and Pourcel to name a few. It really sucks that our sport is one of the few where not all of the top guys in that particular sport consistently compete against each other.
Your tracks in the US definately stretch things out,5th place well over a minute down doesn't happen at the GP tracks,guys finishing that far behind are usually somewhere around 10-15 place,and that's often from Cairoli's time

MXdN last year

Race 1 19th 11 Coldenhoff, Glenn NED KNMV KTM 35:10.628 19 1:13.086

Race 2 8 th 14 Lupino, Alessandro ITA FMI Kawasaki 34:49.543 19 1:16.624

Race3 17th 21 Leok, Tanel EST EMF TM 35:54.506 19 1:12.513
RY4N37
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9/2/2014 2:28pm
PressPassP wrote:
Your tracks in the US definately stretch things out,5th place well over a minute down doesn't happen at the GP tracks,guys finishing that far behind are...
Your tracks in the US definately stretch things out,5th place well over a minute down doesn't happen at the GP tracks,guys finishing that far behind are usually somewhere around 10-15 place,and that's often from Cairoli's time

MXdN last year

Race 1 19th 11 Coldenhoff, Glenn NED KNMV KTM 35:10.628 19 1:13.086

Race 2 8 th 14 Lupino, Alessandro ITA FMI Kawasaki 34:49.543 19 1:16.624

Race3 17th 21 Leok, Tanel EST EMF TM 35:54.506 19 1:12.513
I don't get what it is about US tracks that stretches the field out so much though. They're no more technical than the GP tracks. Not even the sand tracks at GP's stretch the field out so much. The only observation I've made about american tracks is that they seem to be a lot faster with more jumps, but you wouldn't have thought that would cause them to spread out so much
Outsider
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9/2/2014 2:33pm
I think it has to do with the aggressive pace early on in the nationals, but I would love to know what Desalle, Roczen or Pourcel thinks.
zook11
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9/2/2014 2:35pm
RY4N37 wrote:
Jeez do you even watch the GP's. Milsaps? Is this some kind of joke? Herlings is on a different level to any other 250 rider on...
Jeez do you even watch the GP's. Milsaps? Is this some kind of joke?

Herlings is on a different level to any other 250 rider on the planet. A bloke who can hardly walk wins the Oakley Bomb every week in your 250 class ffs
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put...
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put him in there.

Herlings has not proved that he can cut it here against our guys. He went out and broke his leg while losing a race to some minicycle racer before we could find out. And with that broken leg and missing numerous races, he still has a lead in the series and may win the title. You call that field deep? GrinningGrinningGrinningGrinningDry
PressPassP wrote:
Dungey went 5-7 at Teuchenthal last year,that could easily happen in a GP,not all of the Euros were there either,after the top 5 the AMA 450's,it...
Dungey went 5-7 at Teuchenthal last year,that could easily happen in a GP,not all of the Euros were there either,after the top 5 the AMA 450's,it drops off and the depth isn't there like the GP's where they're bunched much tighter down the feild,with due respect,I really don't think a guy like Noren would regularly do the same in Europe

Herlings is faster than MX1 most weekends,he's so much better than the other MX2 guys but it's hard to guess how some of the AMA boys would do against them as the top 3 won't be at the MXdN

Herlings nearly lapped the current 450 champion last time they met if you want to play silly fuckers too SmileSmile
Our best rider was not there if you want to play that gameWink . There's a reason we won the most mxons!
9/2/2014 3:01pm
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put...
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put him in there.

Herlings has not proved that he can cut it here against our guys. He went out and broke his leg while losing a race to some minicycle racer before we could find out. And with that broken leg and missing numerous races, he still has a lead in the series and may win the title. You call that field deep? GrinningGrinningGrinningGrinningDry
PressPassP wrote:
Dungey went 5-7 at Teuchenthal last year,that could easily happen in a GP,not all of the Euros were there either,after the top 5 the AMA 450's,it...
Dungey went 5-7 at Teuchenthal last year,that could easily happen in a GP,not all of the Euros were there either,after the top 5 the AMA 450's,it drops off and the depth isn't there like the GP's where they're bunched much tighter down the feild,with due respect,I really don't think a guy like Noren would regularly do the same in Europe

Herlings is faster than MX1 most weekends,he's so much better than the other MX2 guys but it's hard to guess how some of the AMA boys would do against them as the top 3 won't be at the MXdN

Herlings nearly lapped the current 450 champion last time they met if you want to play silly fuckers too SmileSmile
zook11 wrote:
Our best rider was not there if you want to play that gameWink . There's a reason we won the most mxons!
He could've been,but wasn't at Lommel either,shame because he'd have got his ass kicked by those 2 KTM's Wink
9/2/2014 3:06pm
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put...
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put him in there.

Herlings has not proved that he can cut it here against our guys. He went out and broke his leg while losing a race to some minicycle racer before we could find out. And with that broken leg and missing numerous races, he still has a lead in the series and may win the title. You call that field deep? GrinningGrinningGrinningGrinningDry
RY4N37 wrote:
Here we go then, here's the proof. Last 5 rounds from each series. Gap back to 5th and how far 5th was off on lap time...
Here we go then, here's the proof. Last 5 rounds from each series. Gap back to 5th and how far 5th was off on lap time:

Utah:
Moto 1- Grant was 5th, 1min 19 behind the leader, 3.4 off on laptime
Moto 2- Metclfe 5th, 1min 8 behind the leader, 3.6 off on laptime

Lommel:
Moto 1- Strijbos 5th, 21.2 secs behind the leader, 0.1 off on laptime
Moto 2- De Reuver 5th, 32.9 behind leader, 0.7 off on laptime

Indiana: (muddy i know)
Moto 1- Metcalfe 5th, 1:58 behind, 6.9 off
Moto 2- Grant 5th, 58.9 behind, 5.1 off

Loket:
Moto 1- Simpson 23.8 behind, 1.5 off
Moto 2- Frossard 58.1 behind, 2.4 off

Unadilla:
Moto 1- Short 1:22 behind, 3.8 off
Moto 2- Peick 1:36 behind, 4.1 off

Hyvinkaa:
Moto 1- Strijbos 24.1 behind, 0.5 off
Moto 2- Ferris 31.0 behind, 3.2 off

Washougal:
Moto 1- Metcalfe 59.5 behind, 4.1 off
Moto 2- Short 1:2 behind, 5.4 off

Uddevalla:
Moto 1- Frossard 15.0 behind, 0.01 off
Moto 2- Searle 22.6 behind, 1.3 off

Millville:
Moto 1- Grant 1:00 behind, 3.8 off
Moto 2- Grant 1:35 behind, 5.5 off

Teutschenthal:
Moto 1- Cairoli 11.6 behind, 0.2 faster than the winner
Moto 2- Simpson 26.6 behind, 1.5 off

In the last 5 rounds 8 0f the 10 races in the AMA have finished with 5th over a minute behind the leader. Compared to 0 in the GP's. Also, 7 different people have finished 5th in the last 10 GP motos compared to 5 in the AMA, which would indicate a deeper field. I don't know how much more comprehensively beaten you wanna get!

Sorry but this year DeSalle, Paulin would both fall into that 5th place range in the ama, which means they too would be 1 minute back. Add in Barcia and Millsaps and it only gets worse. TC may step it up and run with the leaders every once in a while.
RY4N37
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9/2/2014 3:14pm
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put...
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put him in there.

Herlings has not proved that he can cut it here against our guys. He went out and broke his leg while losing a race to some minicycle racer before we could find out. And with that broken leg and missing numerous races, he still has a lead in the series and may win the title. You call that field deep? GrinningGrinningGrinningGrinningDry
RY4N37 wrote:
Here we go then, here's the proof. Last 5 rounds from each series. Gap back to 5th and how far 5th was off on lap time...
Here we go then, here's the proof. Last 5 rounds from each series. Gap back to 5th and how far 5th was off on lap time:

Utah:
Moto 1- Grant was 5th, 1min 19 behind the leader, 3.4 off on laptime
Moto 2- Metclfe 5th, 1min 8 behind the leader, 3.6 off on laptime

Lommel:
Moto 1- Strijbos 5th, 21.2 secs behind the leader, 0.1 off on laptime
Moto 2- De Reuver 5th, 32.9 behind leader, 0.7 off on laptime

Indiana: (muddy i know)
Moto 1- Metcalfe 5th, 1:58 behind, 6.9 off
Moto 2- Grant 5th, 58.9 behind, 5.1 off

Loket:
Moto 1- Simpson 23.8 behind, 1.5 off
Moto 2- Frossard 58.1 behind, 2.4 off

Unadilla:
Moto 1- Short 1:22 behind, 3.8 off
Moto 2- Peick 1:36 behind, 4.1 off

Hyvinkaa:
Moto 1- Strijbos 24.1 behind, 0.5 off
Moto 2- Ferris 31.0 behind, 3.2 off

Washougal:
Moto 1- Metcalfe 59.5 behind, 4.1 off
Moto 2- Short 1:2 behind, 5.4 off

Uddevalla:
Moto 1- Frossard 15.0 behind, 0.01 off
Moto 2- Searle 22.6 behind, 1.3 off

Millville:
Moto 1- Grant 1:00 behind, 3.8 off
Moto 2- Grant 1:35 behind, 5.5 off

Teutschenthal:
Moto 1- Cairoli 11.6 behind, 0.2 faster than the winner
Moto 2- Simpson 26.6 behind, 1.5 off

In the last 5 rounds 8 0f the 10 races in the AMA have finished with 5th over a minute behind the leader. Compared to 0 in the GP's. Also, 7 different people have finished 5th in the last 10 GP motos compared to 5 in the AMA, which would indicate a deeper field. I don't know how much more comprehensively beaten you wanna get!

Sorry but this year DeSalle, Paulin would both fall into that 5th place range in the ama, which means they too would be 1 minute back...
Sorry but this year DeSalle, Paulin would both fall into that 5th place range in the ama, which means they too would be 1 minute back. Add in Barcia and Millsaps and it only gets worse. TC may step it up and run with the leaders every once in a while.
Based on what? Both Paulin and Desalle fought with Cairoli this season before they got injured. There was a period of about 5 GP's where Desalle had the beating of Cairoli.
PressPassP
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9/2/2014 3:33pm
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put...
Yes, Millsaps. The others are a given that they would beat your top five, but Millsaps is an excellent outdoor rider as well so I'd put him in there.

Herlings has not proved that he can cut it here against our guys. He went out and broke his leg while losing a race to some minicycle racer before we could find out. And with that broken leg and missing numerous races, he still has a lead in the series and may win the title. You call that field deep? GrinningGrinningGrinningGrinningDry
PressPassP wrote:
Dungey went 5-7 at Teuchenthal last year,that could easily happen in a GP,not all of the Euros were there either,after the top 5 the AMA 450's,it...
Dungey went 5-7 at Teuchenthal last year,that could easily happen in a GP,not all of the Euros were there either,after the top 5 the AMA 450's,it drops off and the depth isn't there like the GP's where they're bunched much tighter down the feild,with due respect,I really don't think a guy like Noren would regularly do the same in Europe

Herlings is faster than MX1 most weekends,he's so much better than the other MX2 guys but it's hard to guess how some of the AMA boys would do against them as the top 3 won't be at the MXdN

Herlings nearly lapped the current 450 champion last time they met if you want to play silly fuckers too SmileSmile
zook11 wrote:
Our best rider was not there if you want to play that gameWink . There's a reason we won the most mxons!

The AMA series is huge compared to every other single country that contests the MXdN,being able to pick 3 riders from virtually the whole series does have an advantage of always having a great team,the GP series is basically Europe (same size as the US) divided up into 10-15 countries,when a country loses a decent rider like many have this year,they struggle for another of simiar talent

It's just the way it is,since it's origins when a few Euros went over to race,it's grown into an incredible industry really,both Amateur and pro,the sheer size of the place allows great expansion both trackwise and riders.It's great,all the better for our sport Smile
9/2/2014 3:35pm
RY4N37 wrote:
Based on what? Both Paulin and Desalle fought with Cairoli this season before they got injured. There was a period of about 5 GP's where Desalle...
Based on what? Both Paulin and Desalle fought with Cairoli this season before they got injured. There was a period of about 5 GP's where Desalle had the beating of Cairoli.
I think Cairoli has that extra level he uses when he needs to. He has previously said that he will settle for second if its in the best interest of the championship. I don't think Cairoli would be with Roczen, Canard, Tomac, Dungey's level here every race because of heat, sprint speed, depth of the field. He can get up there a few times though. Also, If he crashes in europe he is what, 20th? 25th? And only the top 7ish are solid. Here you are 40th and the top 15-20 is solid. He could get up there a few times though.

If our riders went to Europe I think they would be in the top group winning races, not leaving them behind. At least for the first season.

Bottom line is we are comparing apples to oranges, they're different series.

It's safe to say that most top riders want to come to the US as they move up. Those who don't stay for the big contracts. Looking at the top 3 from mx2 over the years, and a few really good guys who moved up to mx1 for only a season or two, you can say that the majority of the big name prospects came over to race the best with only a few exceptions. That's what I base my theory on depth compared to depth in the GPs. The best riders generally want to race the best unless they find their money and niche in europe.

Tortelli
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Pichon
Langston
Townley
Rattray
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Searle
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rrjr
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9/2/2014 3:45pm
bvm111 wrote:
Why do people still make a big deal out of the food in Europe, he isn't going on vacation in 1975 and trying to find something...
Why do people still make a big deal out of the food in Europe, he isn't going on vacation in 1975 and trying to find something to eat In a hotel restaurant. If you think he won't have his meals prepared for him just like another athlete does you are kidding yourself. There is plenty of Aldon Baker approved food in the normal markets there he won't even notice a difference.

Aldon Baker is no longer training Villapoto.
Villapoto fired him about the same time as he sold his house in Florida.
rrjr
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9/2/2014 3:48pm
Barrett57 wrote:
If he's moving to Lommel then good luck, it's one of the bleakest places in Europe. And that's coming from someone who lives in North Wales.

philG wrote:
i genuinely LOL'ed at that.... I would give anything to see his face the first time he has a night out in Eindhoven ... And North...
i genuinely LOL'ed at that....

I would give anything to see his face the first time he has a night out in Eindhoven ...

And North Wales is a beautiful place...

Olson wrote:
His girlfriend will absolutley love it. So will his wallet. No hunting, some lakes for fishing, close to France though, get some carps.
I don't think Villapoto's wife will be happy to hear that he's taking his girlfriend to Europe.

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