Question about cornering technique

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5/14/2020 8:26 PM

So I just got done watching one of Catanzaro’s training videos and he mentioned that sticking the inside foot up in a corner is strictly an insurance policy basically to help save a fall. I always thought you stuck the inside foot up near the front fender as a way to weight the front tire to make it stick more. Is this not the case?

Is it really only necessary to stick your foot up in super rutted corners so they don’t get caught up in the rut?

I often hear trainers telling people to practice keeping their feet on the pegs going through corners. What’s the reasoning behind this?

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5/14/2020 8:38 PM

I would defer this question to Jason Thomas. Jeff Stanton used to scoot way up on the tank in corners, some guys kinda lean back like Decoster. Not sure if that’s the method to weight the front or the leg out. I feel like the leg is more of a counter balance? But maybe your right

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5/15/2020 12:00 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/15/2020 12:04 AM

kawi_guy07 wrote:

So I just got done watching one of Catanzaro’s training videos and he mentioned that sticking the inside foot up in a corner is strictly an insurance policy basically to help save a fall. I always thought you stuck the inside foot up near the front fender as a way to weight the front tire to make it stick more. Is this not the case?

Is it really only necessary to stick your foot up in super rutted corners so they don’t get caught up in the rut?

I often hear trainers telling people to practice keeping their feet on the pegs going through corners. What’s the reasoning behind this?

#1. The best PRACTICE technique and the best RIDING technique are NOT always the same. For people that learn to ride with their leg up from day 1, it results in your automatic reflex reactions becoming incorrectly trained. You teach yourself THE WRONG TECHNIQUE to catch yourself when you lose grip and start to low side. If you force yourself to ride with your feet on the pegs, you will train your brain and nervous system to control the bike differently. You will use throttle and body position adjustment to control the bike. YOU WILL GET MUCH FASTER. But your have to be willing to go down without trying to save yourself by dabbing your inside foot. This is very hard to do. Stopping yourself from falling by using your feet is about the strongest human reflex there is.

#2. If you have trained your nervous system to maintain bike control using body position and throttle, and NOT putting your leg down, then counter intuitively, there is real benefit to putting your leg up. It will allow you to change your center of mass more quickly...you can bend your leg (bringing your lower leg back) faster than you can shift your whole upper body. You can do both in fact. Having the outside peg weighted is not about "changing your center of mass". That is nonsense. If is about taking your weight OFF the seat so you can move around more. The more you can move around, and move fast, the better you can control the bike with subtle body english. Having your leg up AND the peg weighted allows you to maximize this ability, AS LONG AS YOU CAN RESIST THE INCORRECT TEMPTATION TO PUT YOUR LEG DOWN.

So if you have an incorrect automatic reflex to put your inside foot down to save yourself, practice keeping your feet on the pegs and be willing to fall without putting your foot down. This will help to "re-program" your nervous system. Do circle drills, alternating between feet on pegs (75% of the time), and inside let up (25% of the time). Learn to use throttle and body position to maintain grip. When you think you have unlearned your bad habit of putting your foot down...THEN put your leg up, and see if you really can do it.

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5/15/2020 5:27 AM

Fast forward to 1:25. That there is a perfect corner.

It's a good way to save mileage on your knees and hips. its hard to find a top level pro that doesn't rely on the good old leg paddle. Herlings is a master at in in the sand though.

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5/15/2020 6:39 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/15/2020 8:35 AM

FIREfish148 wrote:

Fast forward to 1:25. That there is a perfect corner.

It's a good way to save mileage on your knees and hips. its hard to find a top level pro that doesn't rely on the good old leg paddle. Herlings is a master at in in the sand though.

And then at 1:40, he kind of dangles his leg!!!

Still..... it's like playing guitar, I think. Some guys are "oh... keep your fingers curled!!!" "Oh.... keep your fingers down and posted!!!" "Ohhhh......" Fact is, if you're good enough, you can do it however you want and make it work just fine. A lot of times, I have a lot of wasted motion _specifically_ to keep myself loose. Kind of like when RC would automatically adjust his helmet on jumps and said he did that to make himself stay loose.

I'm a horrible leg positioner... I tend to drag it or dangle it.... and I have to work hard at keeping it up and out. The other day, we were riding our loose moon dust track and I was pissed because I kept dragging my leg and then it would throw my body weight back and I'd totally squirrel out of the corners. So, I got pissed at my bad habit and started throwing my leg high up on the shroud and _clamping_ that MOFO up there. My son waved me down and said "That looks pretty good!" Go figure.

When I'm riding good, though, I almost never put my leg down. I stand up to where I want to turn and then sit down smoothly and gas it out smoothly. It's something I do when we we're racing enduros and putting a leg down means you're gonna snag it on a log, sooner or later. As noted above, it's a real knee-saver and at 58, I like that.

I also spend time trying to slide feet up on loose surfaces just to get used to the feel and it does pay off on the track.

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2015 Kawasaki KX 250F
2015 GasGas TXT Racing 125
2015 Husqvarna TC 125
2018 KTM 150 XC-W

5/15/2020 7:51 AM

Everts did alot of feet on the pegs in corners. I think he did alot of jet ski training.

&t=740s
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5/15/2020 8:42 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/15/2020 8:44 AM

Paging Gary Semics... paging Gary Semics...

I'll bet that Gary (like the rest of us old coots who grew up in an era when riders paid a lot of attention to riding form,) will say that extending the leg DOES, in fact, add weight to the front wheel and counterbalances the bike. He'll also say to avoid dragging it so as to not slow the bike down or twist your knee, and that your foot is not an outrigger for balance - that is controlled by your body positioning, handlebar and throttle input.
Weighting the outside peg DOES, in fact change your bike's weight distribution and helps the tires stick. Try moving around on the seat by weighting your inside foot instead and you'll see what I mean.
Finally, the "feet up" practice method is fantastic. Learning to ride without putting your foot out is valuable in many scenarios: deep ruts, roots, or situations wherein balance is key to avoid crashing.

Having a leg to dab in case of a minor lowside by sticking your inside foot out is icing on the cake.

Guys, a motorcycle in motion is a wonderful thing to study. The more you understand about balance, countersteering, throttle input, braking, and gravity the better. It is a study in physics (science). Learning to control the interactions of all the above is the art.

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Braaapin' aint easy.

5/15/2020 9:11 AM

Typically you are going to slide forward on the bike and ideally your leg would be extended and pointed forward.

You want to avoid letting your leg drag.

1. The leg drag causes you to pop up

2. When you pop up you are losing momentum

2. Leg drag can lead to ankle and knee injury

It’s hard not to drag the foot because it’s such a natural reflex. You just naturally want to dab dab dab your foot while cornering.

Takes a lot of talent and trust to just lay the bike over with leg extended forward and rail a corner.

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5/15/2020 10:43 AM

Feet on the pegs if your standing through a rut (obviously). Sitting with more lean, as your pegs start to drag it will pull your foot off the peg. Inside foot forward up and in, near the front axel. When my balance is on point my heel is ‘skiing’ through the corner in it’s own little rut

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5/15/2020 10:48 AM

Stefan Everts typically always stood in corners, rarely putting his foot out, he attributes that to not have knee injuries.

I won't say AJ is wrong, but I always believed the foot out, forward, was a balance and weight thing

Also point toe in to avoid injury

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5/15/2020 1:01 PM

EngIceDave wrote:

Stefan Everts typically always stood in corners, rarely putting his foot out, he attributes that to not have knee injuries.

I won't say AJ is wrong, but I always believed the foot out, forward, was a balance and weight thing

Also point toe in to avoid injury

"Also point toe in to avoid injury"...

THIS is a critical part if you have your leg out. Toes should be pointing towards your forks or fender and leg as high up locked into the shroud as possible. By pointing your toe in, it actually allows more of the muscles in your glutes and core lock your leg into place and not get as tired. Not to mention if your toes are pointed outward away from the bike, you're asking for a MCL or ACL tear.

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5/15/2020 1:15 PM

Like this:

Photo

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5/15/2020 1:19 PM

Deep ruts

No ruts

No berm

Big berm

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5/15/2020 2:49 PM

Depends on the corner, the ruts/berms, traction, etc. Sand and hard pack techniques are completely different.

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5/15/2020 5:12 PM

kawi_guy07 wrote:

So I just got done watching one of Catanzaro’s training videos and he mentioned that sticking the inside foot up in a corner is strictly an insurance policy basically to help save a fall. I always thought you stuck the inside foot up near the front fender as a way to weight the front tire to make it stick more. Is this not the case?

Is it really only necessary to stick your foot up in super rutted corners so they don’t get caught up in the rut?

I often hear trainers telling people to practice keeping their feet on the pegs going through corners. What’s the reasoning behind this?

StartedTooLate wrote:

#1. The best PRACTICE technique and the best RIDING technique are NOT always the same. For people that learn to ride with their leg up from day 1, it results in your automatic reflex reactions becoming incorrectly trained. You teach yourself THE WRONG TECHNIQUE to catch yourself when you lose grip and start to low side. If you force yourself to ride with your feet on the pegs, you will train your brain and nervous system to control the bike differently. You will use throttle and body position adjustment to control the bike. YOU WILL GET MUCH FASTER. But your have to be willing to go down without trying to save yourself by dabbing your inside foot. This is very hard to do. Stopping yourself from falling by using your feet is about the strongest human reflex there is.

#2. If you have trained your nervous system to maintain bike control using body position and throttle, and NOT putting your leg down, then counter intuitively, there is real benefit to putting your leg up. It will allow you to change your center of mass more quickly...you can bend your leg (bringing your lower leg back) faster than you can shift your whole upper body. You can do both in fact. Having the outside peg weighted is not about "changing your center of mass". That is nonsense. If is about taking your weight OFF the seat so you can move around more. The more you can move around, and move fast, the better you can control the bike with subtle body english. Having your leg up AND the peg weighted allows you to maximize this ability, AS LONG AS YOU CAN RESIST THE INCORRECT TEMPTATION TO PUT YOUR LEG DOWN.

So if you have an incorrect automatic reflex to put your inside foot down to save yourself, practice keeping your feet on the pegs and be willing to fall without putting your foot down. This will help to "re-program" your nervous system. Do circle drills, alternating between feet on pegs (75% of the time), and inside let up (25% of the time). Learn to use throttle and body position to maintain grip. When you think you have unlearned your bad habit of putting your foot down...THEN put your leg up, and see if you really can do it.

what about deep ruts where you can't physically keep your foot on the peg? is there ever a time where dabbing your foot is acceptable or should you always be able to correct yourself with throttle and body control?

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5/16/2020 12:36 AM

How stoked do you think the guy on the Honda was when he got roosted by James in that video?

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5/16/2020 7:15 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/16/2020 7:17 AM

Standing in the attack position until you are past the last breaking bump. (attack position = gripping bike with knees, toes pointed in, on the balls of your feet, elbows up, butt back)

Get off the rear brake as soon as you are past the last braking bump and in a single motion transition to sitting, leg up, toes pointed in (towards forks) steady throttle, modulating speed with the front brake. elbows up, weight up on the tank. keeping the gas steady keeps the bike sucked down in the rut. Chopping the throttle unloads the rear suspension and will cause the bike to climb out of the rut. Dragging the front brake keeps speed in check and keeps the front suspension sucked down. Exiting the turn, if you are on a 2 stroke, a quick clutch pump will help accelerate out of the corner, 4 stroke, roll the throttle on.

look ahead, think ahead, ride ahead.

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"Hope is not a strategy"

5/16/2020 7:36 AM

I remember seeing an article on RacerX sometime in the mid 2000s, describing watching Reed rail a bowl turn with both feet on the pegs, and wondering if this was the start of a new advancement in technique vs the traditional leg out.

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5/16/2020 8:59 AM

I believe there are situations for each technique to be used and there is no single one way or the other. Point I'd like to make is when the feet are on the pegs weighting them and the butt is not weighting the seat, the center of gravity on the bike (on the pegs) is much lower and not as top heavy. Its less likely to want to tip over when the center of gravity is lower on the bike. When sitting on the seat and not weighting the pegs, the center of gravity is higher on the bike and will feel more top heavy, thus easier to tip over. So sitting down, you have to go faster through the corner to prevent the tipping feeling. If the ruts aren't so deep that it doesn't pull the foot off the peg, I prefer to keep them on the pegs and weight them (either standing or sitting) as the bike doesn't feel as top heavy to me. I also have one bad knee and one really bad hip, and dabbing hurts like a MOFO. I'd rather fall over than dabb, Probably just need to go get the surgeries done. Regardless, I'm a supporter of weighting the pegs as much as possible.

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5/16/2020 9:40 AM

FIREfish148 wrote:

Fast forward to 1:25. That there is a perfect corner.

It's a good way to save mileage on your knees and hips. its hard to find a top level pro that doesn't rely on the good old leg paddle. Herlings is a master at in in the sand though.

HighPlainsSquid wrote:

And then at 1:40, he kind of dangles his leg!!!

Still..... it's like playing guitar, I think. Some guys are "oh... keep your fingers curled!!!" "Oh.... keep your fingers down and posted!!!" "Ohhhh......" Fact is, if you're good enough, you can do it however you want and make it work just fine. A lot of times, I have a lot of wasted motion _specifically_ to keep myself loose. Kind of like when RC would automatically adjust his helmet on jumps and said he did that to make himself stay loose.

I'm a horrible leg positioner... I tend to drag it or dangle it.... and I have to work hard at keeping it up and out. The other day, we were riding our loose moon dust track and I was pissed because I kept dragging my leg and then it would throw my body weight back and I'd totally squirrel out of the corners. So, I got pissed at my bad habit and started throwing my leg high up on the shroud and _clamping_ that MOFO up there. My son waved me down and said "That looks pretty good!" Go figure.

When I'm riding good, though, I almost never put my leg down. I stand up to where I want to turn and then sit down smoothly and gas it out smoothly. It's something I do when we we're racing enduros and putting a leg down means you're gonna snag it on a log, sooner or later. As noted above, it's a real knee-saver and at 58, I like that.

I also spend time trying to slide feet up on loose surfaces just to get used to the feel and it does pay off on the track.

At 2:15 James makes a left hand turn using old school leg out, up out of the way, perfect form and perfect turn.

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5/16/2020 10:20 AM

Jason Lawrence would bring his knee up behind the bars to keep his feet out of the way in deep ruts. Used to see it in magazine pictures and that was one of the first technical deviancy from the norm that i noticed about anyone’s riding style.

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5/16/2020 10:35 AM

snackfedbear wrote:

Jason Lawrence would bring his knee up behind the bars to keep his feet out of the way in deep ruts. Used to see it in magazine pictures and that was one of the first technical deviancy from the norm that i noticed about anyone’s riding style.

Photo
Photo
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