Proof that oil ratio and flashpoint have nothing to do with it.

sandhills
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sandhills
Edited Date/Time 10/13/2021 1:41am
Put 30:1 any oil in your four stroke lawnmower: No smoke, no spooge, no fouled plugs.
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jbonemalone
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jbonemalone 9/19/2021 9:14am
9/19/2021 9:14am
My zero turn has lived on 40:1 maxima since the day I bought it.
135 hrs same plugs as the day it came home.
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vtec_
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vtec_ 9/19/2021 9:17am
9/19/2021 9:17am
i remember back like 15 years ago when the first crfs had super soft valve seats and wwere constantly needing to be re-adjusted

some people were using a light premix in the crfs or using marvel mystery oil to help w/ valve life
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murph783
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murph783 9/19/2021 10:17am
9/19/2021 10:17am
Yes, you know-those ultra high performance, tight tolerance machines-lawnmowers
10

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Thisusernameisavailable 9/19/2021 11:05am
9/19/2021 11:05am
vtec_ wrote:
i remember back like 15 years ago when the first crfs had super soft valve seats and wwere constantly needing to be re-adjusted some people were...
i remember back like 15 years ago when the first crfs had super soft valve seats and wwere constantly needing to be re-adjusted

some people were using a light premix in the crfs or using marvel mystery oil to help w/ valve life
Is this for real? What sort of ratio?
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NITRODOG
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NITRODOG 9/19/2021 1:20pm
9/19/2021 1:20pm Edited Date/Time 9/19/2021 1:21pm
Having spent 15 yrs full time in the High Performance fuels industry, I can attest from years of reading threads on here about fuels that there are numerous back yard chemists that have no idea what they are talking about, feel free to flame away, but let me say this.....

The fuel doesn't really know if it's in a 2 stroke or 4 stroke engine, the engine doesn't really know if you are putting fuel "designed" for a 4 stroke or 2 stroke in it, (unless you forget to mix in your 2 stroke oil.) Likewise with "motorsports" v "powersports fuels"...and VP doesn't really have 86 (or whatever) different unique fuels, although they may have that many mixes of petroleum dye...

the 100 unleaded and 110 leaded fuels that come out of a pump, like what Downs Oil sells here in SoCal for about 8 bucks a gallon are plenty good for 99% of the people

Tetraethyl Lead is your best octane booster so feel free to mix your 110 leaded in with your premium pump gas to save a little money.

MXR02 is badass, please use it at Mammoth in either a 2 or 4 stroke

A lot of the guys on the fuel trucks at the races, and at trade shows really don't know much, their best advise is to read the brochures..

A great deal of the basic race fuels and race fuel components come from a specialty chemical plant in Borger Texas that was built during WW2 to make 115/145 AvGas for the P51 The plant can produce much smaller batches (50,000 gal) with much better quality control than a normal refinery.

VP is not historically a refiner, they are a blender of fuels (My knowledge on this one is dated, so since they were "bought" by a major petroleum company, they could be...)

and YES to try to end the debate, much basic racegas is AvGas base )(because it's a very good starting point.) with 20 to 25% aromatic hydrocarbons, and a little dye added, or in the case of the old Cam2 gas, way too much red dye....

So you all can keep believing the Marketing teams or not....but remember, A&W's 1/3 lb hamburger failed because the majority of people think that 1/3 is smaller than 1/4


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vtec_
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vtec_ 9/19/2021 1:31pm
9/19/2021 1:31pm Edited Date/Time 9/19/2021 1:32pm
vtec_ wrote:
i remember back like 15 years ago when the first crfs had super soft valve seats and wwere constantly needing to be re-adjusted some people were...
i remember back like 15 years ago when the first crfs had super soft valve seats and wwere constantly needing to be re-adjusted

some people were using a light premix in the crfs or using marvel mystery oil to help w/ valve life
Thisusernameisavailable wrote:
Is this for real? What sort of ratio?
i read it on the forums (thumpertalk back in the day..) ..not sure about the ratio, i think some were just putting a few drops in the gas. it wasnt exactly scientific lol

here are some i found from teh old days

https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/43745-marvel-mystery-oil-or-2-stro…


https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/938761-2010-100-hrs-no-valve-adjus…
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Sandusky26
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Sandusky26 9/19/2021 1:33pm
9/19/2021 1:33pm
Thisusernameisavailable wrote:
Is this for real? What sort of ratio?
I had a 2004 CRF250 that ate valves and tried 100:1 ratio. I don’t know if it helped because it still ate valves. I remember people doing that in early 4 stroke days.
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sandhills
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sandhills 9/19/2021 1:41pm
9/19/2021 1:41pm Edited Date/Time 9/19/2021 1:42pm
murph783 wrote:
Yes, you know-those ultra high performance, tight tolerance machines-lawnmowers
Point is even a crude little briggs and stratton has no problem fully combusting premix at a cold idle. All this idea that "you need to be riding it at race pace to get combustion temps up to burn up 30:1" is BS, it's not about heat. There's two ways oil makes it out the exhaust, over rich mixture and short circuiting; the former is what fouls plugs and you can't fix the latter.
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ATKpilot99
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ATKpilot99 9/19/2021 2:26pm
9/19/2021 2:26pm
Yep . I've used old premix in my mowers a lot . Never had an issue or noticed any difference from when I run straight gas .
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felpro
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felpro 9/19/2021 3:19pm
9/19/2021 3:19pm
The trick is to throw a little vegetable oil into your mower, blower or trimmer. Smells like racing in the 80's. Seriously good daydreaming as you get your yard sorted . . .
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Timo
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Timo 9/20/2021 7:59am
9/20/2021 7:59am
Before storing a carbureted bike, jetski, or lawnmower I like to rune premix in them so there is a layer of oil in the carb. Seems like it helps keep them fresh for a few months at least.
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FGR01
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FGR01 9/20/2021 10:04am
9/20/2021 10:04am
murph783 wrote:
Yes, you know-those ultra high performance, tight tolerance machines-lawnmowers
sandhills wrote:
Point is even a crude little briggs and stratton has no problem fully combusting premix at a cold idle. All this idea that "you need to...
Point is even a crude little briggs and stratton has no problem fully combusting premix at a cold idle. All this idea that "you need to be riding it at race pace to get combustion temps up to burn up 30:1" is BS, it's not about heat. There's two ways oil makes it out the exhaust, over rich mixture and short circuiting; the former is what fouls plugs and you can't fix the latter.
"There's two ways oil makes it out the exhaust, over rich mixture and short circuiting"

Yes... and it's a fact that the gas:oil ratio directly affects the gas:air ratio (over rich mixture).

So, you're disproving your point while you think you are proving your point (that oil ratio doesn't matter)

Also, the lawn mower example - most mowers are air cooled and run at a set, high rpm. Which means they generally run consistently hot. Unlike a 2-stroke dirt bike where a fast rider in thick dirt with big hills will certainly generate a lot more heat and higher engine/exhaust temps than a slow beginner putt-putting around barely above idle on flat, hard-packed ground. So, it's not a very good example applicable to MX bikes. Also, 4-stroke lawnmowers are generally jetted on the lean side. When you add oil to the gas you have effectively leaned out the gas:air ratio even farther which makes them run even hotter.
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kb228
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kb228 9/20/2021 10:32am
9/20/2021 10:32am
First of all youre flat out wrong but what point are you trying to prove?
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FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 9/20/2021 11:32am
9/20/2021 11:32am
Stihls four stroke yard and garden stuff is now premix without a sump/oil reservoir.

When I asked how this passed emissions, someone here said that the emissions issue with two strokes comes from unavoidable port timing issues, not oil premixed with gas,
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Skerby
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Skerby 9/20/2021 11:35am
9/20/2021 11:35am
My Honda 4514 riding mower runs like shit on 2 stroke gas.
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FWYT
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FWYT 9/20/2021 11:36am
9/20/2021 11:36am
felpro wrote:
The trick is to throw a little vegetable oil into your mower, blower or trimmer. Smells like racing in the 80's. Seriously good daydreaming as you...
The trick is to throw a little vegetable oil into your mower, blower or trimmer. Smells like racing in the 80's. Seriously good daydreaming as you get your yard sorted . . .
For real?! Hell, I'll start running that in my Toyota if it's true!!!

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Sandusky26
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Sandusky26 9/20/2021 1:03pm
9/20/2021 1:03pm
felpro wrote:
The trick is to throw a little vegetable oil into your mower, blower or trimmer. Smells like racing in the 80's. Seriously good daydreaming as you...
The trick is to throw a little vegetable oil into your mower, blower or trimmer. Smells like racing in the 80's. Seriously good daydreaming as you get your yard sorted . . .
FWYT wrote:
For real?! Hell, I'll start running that in my Toyota if it's true!!!
My truck smells like racing in the 90’s
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sandhills
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sandhills 9/20/2021 1:24pm
9/20/2021 1:24pm
FGR01 wrote:
"There's two ways oil makes it out the exhaust, over rich mixture and short circuiting" Yes... and it's a fact that the gas:oil ratio directly affects...
"There's two ways oil makes it out the exhaust, over rich mixture and short circuiting"

Yes... and it's a fact that the gas:oil ratio directly affects the gas:air ratio (over rich mixture).

So, you're disproving your point while you think you are proving your point (that oil ratio doesn't matter)

Also, the lawn mower example - most mowers are air cooled and run at a set, high rpm. Which means they generally run consistently hot. Unlike a 2-stroke dirt bike where a fast rider in thick dirt with big hills will certainly generate a lot more heat and higher engine/exhaust temps than a slow beginner putt-putting around barely above idle on flat, hard-packed ground. So, it's not a very good example applicable to MX bikes. Also, 4-stroke lawnmowers are generally jetted on the lean side. When you add oil to the gas you have effectively leaned out the gas:air ratio even farther which makes them run even hotter.
Premix ratio does affect mixture ratio but that's a side effect. If the bike is running rich on 30:1 it will only run richer on 40 or 50:1. If the bike is running rich it needs jetting changes, not changes to the premix ratio. The hot take of my post here is that jetting is always the only answer. 30:1 high flashpoint is perfectly suitable for slow woods riding as long as it's jetted correctly, and a bit of spooge from short circuiting is inevitable, it's small price to pay for your bottom end to be properly lubricated.
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AJ565
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AJ565 9/20/2021 4:41pm
9/20/2021 4:41pm
The 2 and 3 rotor engine guys have been known to add oil to their gas to help keep the apex seals alive for a longer time with high boost.
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BobPA
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BobPA 9/20/2021 5:45pm
9/20/2021 5:45pm
AJ565 wrote:
The 2 and 3 rotor engine guys have been known to add oil to their gas to help keep the apex seals alive for a longer...
The 2 and 3 rotor engine guys have been known to add oil to their gas to help keep the apex seals alive for a longer time with high boost.
My RX7 ispremix, 1oz/gallon for years....Of course it grenaded earlier this year....No amount of premix can cure too much boost haha.

Stock RX7's draw their housing (apex seal) lubricant from the sump. Some car oils burned very dirty and caused carbon build up, which is a no-no in a rotary. Pre mixing really keeps the carbon at bay....along with plenty of WOT.
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mxtech1
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mxtech1 9/20/2021 5:58pm
9/20/2021 5:58pm Edited Date/Time 9/20/2021 5:59pm
Cheese and rice….there’s so much bad information in this thread. Just basic non-understanding of ICE fluid mechanics and tribology fundamentals.
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BobPA
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BobPA 9/20/2021 6:01pm
9/20/2021 6:01pm
mxtech1 wrote:
Cheese and rice….there’s so much bad information in this thread. Just basic non-understanding of ICE fluid mechanics and tribology fundamentals.
Enlighten us with your great wisdom....
swatdoc
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swatdoc 9/20/2021 6:21pm
9/20/2021 6:21pm
NITRODOG wrote:
Having spent 15 yrs full time in the High Performance fuels industry, I can attest from years of reading threads on here about fuels that there...
Having spent 15 yrs full time in the High Performance fuels industry, I can attest from years of reading threads on here about fuels that there are numerous back yard chemists that have no idea what they are talking about, feel free to flame away, but let me say this.....

The fuel doesn't really know if it's in a 2 stroke or 4 stroke engine, the engine doesn't really know if you are putting fuel "designed" for a 4 stroke or 2 stroke in it, (unless you forget to mix in your 2 stroke oil.) Likewise with "motorsports" v "powersports fuels"...and VP doesn't really have 86 (or whatever) different unique fuels, although they may have that many mixes of petroleum dye...

the 100 unleaded and 110 leaded fuels that come out of a pump, like what Downs Oil sells here in SoCal for about 8 bucks a gallon are plenty good for 99% of the people

Tetraethyl Lead is your best octane booster so feel free to mix your 110 leaded in with your premium pump gas to save a little money.

MXR02 is badass, please use it at Mammoth in either a 2 or 4 stroke

A lot of the guys on the fuel trucks at the races, and at trade shows really don't know much, their best advise is to read the brochures..

A great deal of the basic race fuels and race fuel components come from a specialty chemical plant in Borger Texas that was built during WW2 to make 115/145 AvGas for the P51 The plant can produce much smaller batches (50,000 gal) with much better quality control than a normal refinery.

VP is not historically a refiner, they are a blender of fuels (My knowledge on this one is dated, so since they were "bought" by a major petroleum company, they could be...)

and YES to try to end the debate, much basic racegas is AvGas base )(because it's a very good starting point.) with 20 to 25% aromatic hydrocarbons, and a little dye added, or in the case of the old Cam2 gas, way too much red dye....

So you all can keep believing the Marketing teams or not....but remember, A&W's 1/3 lb hamburger failed because the majority of people think that 1/3 is smaller than 1/4


Nitrodog. How do you purchase the gas from Downs? I've just been buying VP C12 from Temecula Motorsports or AEO, but its like $90 for 5 gallons. I'd much rather be spending $8 a gallon
2
sandhills
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sandhills 9/20/2021 6:29pm
9/20/2021 6:29pm
mxtech1 wrote:
Cheese and rice….there’s so much bad information in this thread. Just basic non-understanding of ICE fluid mechanics and tribology fundamentals.
If you're gonna jump in like that please state your premix ratio.
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vtec_
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vtec_ 9/20/2021 6:34pm
9/20/2021 6:34pm
AJ565 wrote:
The 2 and 3 rotor engine guys have been known to add oil to their gas to help keep the apex seals alive for a longer...
The 2 and 3 rotor engine guys have been known to add oil to their gas to help keep the apex seals alive for a longer time with high boost.
BobPA wrote:
My RX7 ispremix, 1oz/gallon for years....Of course it grenaded earlier this year....No amount of premix can cure too much boost haha. Stock RX7's draw their housing...
My RX7 ispremix, 1oz/gallon for years....Of course it grenaded earlier this year....No amount of premix can cure too much boost haha.

Stock RX7's draw their housing (apex seal) lubricant from the sump. Some car oils burned very dirty and caused carbon build up, which is a no-no in a rotary. Pre mixing really keeps the carbon at bay....along with plenty of WOT.
would you say the oil pump system is similar to that of a pw50/pw80 or blaster? waay back in the day, i remember some people who built hopped up blasters would remove the oil injection or just put in a block off plate
1
GoggleFiend904 9/20/2021 7:02pm
9/20/2021 7:02pm
NITRODOG wrote:
Having spent 15 yrs full time in the High Performance fuels industry, I can attest from years of reading threads on here about fuels that there...
Having spent 15 yrs full time in the High Performance fuels industry, I can attest from years of reading threads on here about fuels that there are numerous back yard chemists that have no idea what they are talking about, feel free to flame away, but let me say this.....

The fuel doesn't really know if it's in a 2 stroke or 4 stroke engine, the engine doesn't really know if you are putting fuel "designed" for a 4 stroke or 2 stroke in it, (unless you forget to mix in your 2 stroke oil.) Likewise with "motorsports" v "powersports fuels"...and VP doesn't really have 86 (or whatever) different unique fuels, although they may have that many mixes of petroleum dye...

the 100 unleaded and 110 leaded fuels that come out of a pump, like what Downs Oil sells here in SoCal for about 8 bucks a gallon are plenty good for 99% of the people

Tetraethyl Lead is your best octane booster so feel free to mix your 110 leaded in with your premium pump gas to save a little money.

MXR02 is badass, please use it at Mammoth in either a 2 or 4 stroke

A lot of the guys on the fuel trucks at the races, and at trade shows really don't know much, their best advise is to read the brochures..

A great deal of the basic race fuels and race fuel components come from a specialty chemical plant in Borger Texas that was built during WW2 to make 115/145 AvGas for the P51 The plant can produce much smaller batches (50,000 gal) with much better quality control than a normal refinery.

VP is not historically a refiner, they are a blender of fuels (My knowledge on this one is dated, so since they were "bought" by a major petroleum company, they could be...)

and YES to try to end the debate, much basic racegas is AvGas base )(because it's a very good starting point.) with 20 to 25% aromatic hydrocarbons, and a little dye added, or in the case of the old Cam2 gas, way too much red dye....

So you all can keep believing the Marketing teams or not....but remember, A&W's 1/3 lb hamburger failed because the majority of people think that 1/3 is smaller than 1/4


swatdoc wrote:
Nitrodog. How do you purchase the gas from Downs? I've just been buying VP C12 from Temecula Motorsports or AEO, but its like $90 for 5...
Nitrodog. How do you purchase the gas from Downs? I've just been buying VP C12 from Temecula Motorsports or AEO, but its like $90 for 5 gallons. I'd much rather be spending $8 a gallon
I get Sunoco 110 leaded at a pump in Indio for 9.45 a gallon. It’s sort of a far drive, but worth it if I get 10-15 gallons. Look for a Sinclair in your area
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wisey
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wisey 9/20/2021 8:51pm
9/20/2021 8:51pm
swatdoc wrote:
Nitrodog. How do you purchase the gas from Downs? I've just been buying VP C12 from Temecula Motorsports or AEO, but its like $90 for 5...
Nitrodog. How do you purchase the gas from Downs? I've just been buying VP C12 from Temecula Motorsports or AEO, but its like $90 for 5 gallons. I'd much rather be spending $8 a gallon
Go in to the office and buy it. It’s kind of a hassle that way or you can set up an account with them and get a card for 24/7.
They also have a pump option at the Corona location.
NITRODOG
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NITRODOG 9/20/2021 10:35pm
9/20/2021 10:35pm
swatdoc wrote:
Nitrodog. How do you purchase the gas from Downs? I've just been buying VP C12 from Temecula Motorsports or AEO, but its like $90 for 5...
Nitrodog. How do you purchase the gas from Downs? I've just been buying VP C12 from Temecula Motorsports or AEO, but its like $90 for 5 gallons. I'd much rather be spending $8 a gallon
wisey wrote:
Go in to the office and buy it. It’s kind of a hassle that way or you can set up an account with them and get...
Go in to the office and buy it. It’s kind of a hassle that way or you can set up an account with them and get a card for 24/7.
They also have a pump option at the Corona location.
They have it from the pump in corona and temecula. Glenn runs tenmecula, its a one man operation so maybe call 1st. Over by the DMV

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