Production Cost of Making a Dirtbike

tcallahan707
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1/16/2018 10:39pm
[url=http://www.ktmgroup.com/globalassets/media/files/financial-reports/2017/gb2016-e_web.pdf]KTM Group 2016 Financial Report[/url] states that [b]2016 gross profit margin was 30.6%.[/b] So from an accounting stand point, for every $10,000 in sales, they profited...
KTM Group 2016 Financial Report states that 2016 gross profit margin was 30.6%. So from an accounting stand point, for every $10,000 in sales, they profited $3,060... meaning there was a $6,940 Cost of Goods Sold. Keep in mind this applies to ALL of KTM Group's revenue sources; bikes sales, merchandise, etc.

I did see in another article that in 2014, Harley Davidson earned 39% gross profit margin on their motorcycle line... so their cost for every $10,000 Harley was $6,100.
I gotta believe merchandise and parts are wayyyy above 30.6% which means bikes are on the other side of that number.
BobbyM
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1/16/2018 10:47pm
IF YOU COULD GET 400% RETURN ON INVESTMENT THEN EVERYBODY WHO HAD MONEY WOULD BE MAKING MOTORCYCLES. I BET ON A 9000 RETAIL PIECE THE DEALER...
IF YOU COULD GET 400% RETURN ON INVESTMENT THEN EVERYBODY WHO HAD MONEY WOULD BE MAKING MOTORCYCLES. I BET ON A 9000 RETAIL PIECE THE DEALER COST IS ABOUT 8000 AND FACTORY COST IS AROUND 7000. THATS A HEATHY 14% RETURN ON INVESTMENT, ANY COMPANY WOULD KILL FOR THOSE NUMBERS.
I used to make pentiums, cost to make about 35 bucks. Sold em for close to thousand bucks. Now that's a profit.
1/16/2018 10:48pm
I gotta believe merchandise and parts are wayyyy above 30.6% which means bikes are on the other side of that number.
Bingo
Highflier
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1/16/2018 10:52pm Edited Date/Time 1/16/2018 10:57pm
fwiw, Cannondale went bankrupt trying to develop 1 motorcycle.
They spent over 20 million in R&D.
True that’s from scratch, but even $10 mil to R&D an all new model is a large per unit cost.
Easy to see why Suzuki can’t develop new RMZ’s.
Cost too much.

The Shop

TheGetFresh
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1/16/2018 11:15pm
[url=http://www.ktmgroup.com/globalassets/media/files/financial-reports/2017/gb2016-e_web.pdf]KTM Group 2016 Financial Report[/url] states that [b]2016 gross profit margin was 30.6%.[/b] So from an accounting stand point, for every $10,000 in sales, they profited...
KTM Group 2016 Financial Report states that 2016 gross profit margin was 30.6%. So from an accounting stand point, for every $10,000 in sales, they profited $3,060... meaning there was a $6,940 Cost of Goods Sold. Keep in mind this applies to ALL of KTM Group's revenue sources; bikes sales, merchandise, etc.

I did see in another article that in 2014, Harley Davidson earned 39% gross profit margin on their motorcycle line... so their cost for every $10,000 Harley was $6,100.
This guy gets it.
Acidreamer
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1/17/2018 1:05am
Cost per bike is entirely based on how many they sell.

Total initial cost to design, buy tooling, buy materials, buy assembly equipment, robots, people, etc... we are talking hundreds of millions of dollars easily.
Bosco
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1/17/2018 2:44am
Quite the loaded question, with so many variables. I'm sure someone more knowledeable than myself will chime in, but I'd imagine nearly every component is outsourced...
Quite the loaded question, with so many variables. I'm sure someone more knowledeable than myself will chime in, but I'd imagine nearly every component is outsourced. Not talking just wheels from Excel or tires from Dunlop; but everything from motor casings to cranks. Granted, the parts are produced to the OEM's specs with strict quality control - but still cast, forged, machined, etc by component suppliers who specialize in those specific abilities.. I'd go as far to say that the only thing done "in house" is assembly..

What I'd really be interested in, is how the number you're asking for differs from say the Honda's and Yamaha's of the world, to the Beta, Sherco and TM's of the world. On one hand, the smaller OEMs have way less overhead expense; but on the other hand I'm not sure how much they lose out on economies of scale...
For a company like Yamaha or Honda, they're likely doing their own castings/forgings, etc. With the size of those companies (and the number of parts being made), they can likely do it for less than what a supplier would charge. As companies get smaller (towards KTM, and then Beta/Sherco/TM) you'll find they'll be doing less steps, or using different processes that make more sense at smaller volumes.

For example, KTM might buy crankcase castings, but machine them themselves. Or they might buy pre-cut/pre-bent frame tubing and then weld and powder coat themselves (I doubt that one's true, but they're sure as hell not extruding their own steel tubing).

And then TM will look to machine ignition covers from solid aluminium, rather than cast from magnesium like the bigger companies do. Maybe the cost of tooling up a casting for a run of only ~100 parts is more expensive than just CNCing from billet.

An important thing to remember about Yamaha/Honda/KTM buying from suppliers is that the engineering departments will (should) specify every dimension, tolerance, finish, material, etc. for the supplier, and they'll have a quality department to make sure that the product they receive is what they specified. So the quality of the parts on your bike is still "Honda" quality or "KTM" quality, i.e. the bike manufacturer is responsible to you for the quality of the product they sell, regardless of where they bought it from.

Interesting side note: It looks like Yamaha tracks the part production process using their part number structure. So 33D-XXXXX-XX-XX might be a post-machining in house aluminium casting. 17D-XXXXX-XX-XX might be a raw in house casting. Maybe purchased parts are 9XXXX-XXXXX-XX. I don't know about any other manufacture part numbers as I've only owned Yamahas since 2006...

Cygrace74
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1/17/2018 4:14am
40acres wrote:
I can confirm without a doubt that this is not true. Perhaps in some very rare instances, but not a normal occurance. Company policy is 25%...
I can confirm without a doubt that this is not true. Perhaps in some very rare instances, but not a normal occurance. Company policy is 25% off a new unit.
Tell that to me and my co workers $4,300 450's...
1/17/2018 4:29am
Bosco wrote:
For a company like Yamaha or Honda, they're likely doing their own castings/forgings, etc. With the size of those companies (and the number of parts being...
For a company like Yamaha or Honda, they're likely doing their own castings/forgings, etc. With the size of those companies (and the number of parts being made), they can likely do it for less than what a supplier would charge. As companies get smaller (towards KTM, and then Beta/Sherco/TM) you'll find they'll be doing less steps, or using different processes that make more sense at smaller volumes.

For example, KTM might buy crankcase castings, but machine them themselves. Or they might buy pre-cut/pre-bent frame tubing and then weld and powder coat themselves (I doubt that one's true, but they're sure as hell not extruding their own steel tubing).

And then TM will look to machine ignition covers from solid aluminium, rather than cast from magnesium like the bigger companies do. Maybe the cost of tooling up a casting for a run of only ~100 parts is more expensive than just CNCing from billet.

An important thing to remember about Yamaha/Honda/KTM buying from suppliers is that the engineering departments will (should) specify every dimension, tolerance, finish, material, etc. for the supplier, and they'll have a quality department to make sure that the product they receive is what they specified. So the quality of the parts on your bike is still "Honda" quality or "KTM" quality, i.e. the bike manufacturer is responsible to you for the quality of the product they sell, regardless of where they bought it from.

Interesting side note: It looks like Yamaha tracks the part production process using their part number structure. So 33D-XXXXX-XX-XX might be a post-machining in house aluminium casting. 17D-XXXXX-XX-XX might be a raw in house casting. Maybe purchased parts are 9XXXX-XXXXX-XX. I don't know about any other manufacture part numbers as I've only owned Yamahas since 2006...

Your post makes a lot of sense, but just to clarify, the first part of Yamaha part numbers design the model they were initially made for (17D 2010 YZ250F, BR9 2018 YZ450F, etc.), second part describes the part (M6 wide flange 20mm bolt, right side panel...), then the other parts specify the part versions (different material, more durable, different color, but compatible with the original)
1/17/2018 4:31am
[url=http://www.ktmgroup.com/globalassets/media/files/financial-reports/2017/gb2016-e_web.pdf]KTM Group 2016 Financial Report[/url] states that [b]2016 gross profit margin was 30.6%.[/b] So from an accounting stand point, for every $10,000 in sales, they profited...
KTM Group 2016 Financial Report states that 2016 gross profit margin was 30.6%. So from an accounting stand point, for every $10,000 in sales, they profited $3,060... meaning there was a $6,940 Cost of Goods Sold. Keep in mind this applies to ALL of KTM Group's revenue sources; bikes sales, merchandise, etc.

I did see in another article that in 2014, Harley Davidson earned 39% gross profit margin on their motorcycle line... so their cost for every $10,000 Harley was $6,100.
Except that KTM doesn’t sell bikes for 10,000. The dealer does. So their sale price would be dealer cost, making actual production cost a bit lower. But otherwise I agree with your conclusion.
jtiger12
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1/17/2018 4:42am
YamahaJT1 wrote:
With ya here... I ordered an 07'CR125 OEM cylinder Horrible void/casting flaw. Had I been afforded the opportunity to inspect the cylinder firsthand prior to purchase...
With ya here...

I ordered an 07'CR125 OEM cylinder Horrible void/casting flaw.

Had I been afforded the opportunity to inspect the cylinder firsthand prior to purchase, I'd have declined. Looks like a crack. Check it out.

Here is a pic:







EDIT: Also, more and more OEM Honda "Nuts and Bolts" are labeled U.S.A., not Japan. Good or bad? Time will tell. OEM Japanese stuff was really durable.

Removed seller reference to let them have more time to sort it out.

From what I understand, Pro X sells a fair amount of OEM parts in Pro X packaging. Usually Pro X is good stuff, but like anything, check it out first.
I recall hearing something about this years ago on thumpertalk. ML or someone else in the know will hopefully chime in.
Because the manufacturers have so many skus they need to maintain for decades of models, they cannot maintain them all in house. The capital costs would drive the part prices sky high. At some point in the product lifecycle of a bike (let's say a 2008 crf450) , the manufacturer reaches a pre set time or profit indicator, they will sell the dies, tooling, etc needed to make non standard parts for that model to third parties.
YamahaJT1
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1/17/2018 5:07am Edited Date/Time 1/17/2018 5:07am
jtiger12 wrote:
I recall hearing something about this years ago on thumpertalk. ML or someone else in the know will hopefully chime in. Because the manufacturers have so...
I recall hearing something about this years ago on thumpertalk. ML or someone else in the know will hopefully chime in.
Because the manufacturers have so many skus they need to maintain for decades of models, they cannot maintain them all in house. The capital costs would drive the part prices sky high. At some point in the product lifecycle of a bike (let's say a 2008 crf450) , the manufacturer reaches a pre set time or profit indicator, they will sell the dies, tooling, etc needed to make non standard parts for that model to third parties.
Yeah, hard to say. This is a genuine Honda OEM cylinder purchased from one of the largest "motorcycle goodies" outfits.

Also, your position about the third party tooling makes sense. Honda just would have to stock them, not manufacture them. Honda certainly is NOT making $$$ "hand over fist" on 05'-07' CR125R cylinder heads!Smile
40acres
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1/17/2018 5:09am
40acres wrote:
I can confirm without a doubt that this is not true. Perhaps in some very rare instances, but not a normal occurance. Company policy is 25%...
I can confirm without a doubt that this is not true. Perhaps in some very rare instances, but not a normal occurance. Company policy is 25% off a new unit.
Cygrace74 wrote:
Tell that to me and my co workers $4,300 450's...
Tell me more about you and your coworker's jobs at Kawasaki Motors Corp., USA
1/17/2018 5:16am
[url=http://www.ktmgroup.com/globalassets/media/files/financial-reports/2017/gb2016-e_web.pdf]KTM Group 2016 Financial Report[/url] states that [b]2016 gross profit margin was 30.6%.[/b] So from an accounting stand point, for every $10,000 in sales, they profited...
KTM Group 2016 Financial Report states that 2016 gross profit margin was 30.6%. So from an accounting stand point, for every $10,000 in sales, they profited $3,060... meaning there was a $6,940 Cost of Goods Sold. Keep in mind this applies to ALL of KTM Group's revenue sources; bikes sales, merchandise, etc.

I did see in another article that in 2014, Harley Davidson earned 39% gross profit margin on their motorcycle line... so their cost for every $10,000 Harley was $6,100.
Sheriff245 wrote:
Except that KTM doesn’t sell bikes for 10,000. The dealer does. So their sale price would be dealer cost, making actual production cost a bit lower...
Except that KTM doesn’t sell bikes for 10,000. The dealer does. So their sale price would be dealer cost, making actual production cost a bit lower. But otherwise I agree with your conclusion.
I don't think it matters who the sales are to.... 30% GP margin is 30% GP margin, regardless. But this is probably a moot point to squabble over Laughing As pointed out earlier, the fact that parts, accessories and merchandise is likely a 40-50%+ profit margin business, that says a lot about how much higher costs on the bikes are
vlh
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1/17/2018 5:26am
Production cost and what the manufacture sells it to a retailer are two different animals. Production cost is the actual cost of the bike, when the manufacture wholesale the bike they calculate in marketing, sales, r&d and so on. Then they need to make a profit. I would tend to think the actual production cost is lower than we think but after overhead and trying to show a profit for shareholders we arrive at a high sticker price.
Donovan759
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1/17/2018 5:29am
IF YOU COULD GET 400% RETURN ON INVESTMENT THEN EVERYBODY WHO HAD MONEY WOULD BE MAKING MOTORCYCLES. I BET ON A 9000 RETAIL PIECE THE DEALER...
IF YOU COULD GET 400% RETURN ON INVESTMENT THEN EVERYBODY WHO HAD MONEY WOULD BE MAKING MOTORCYCLES. I BET ON A 9000 RETAIL PIECE THE DEALER COST IS ABOUT 8000 AND FACTORY COST IS AROUND 7000. THATS A HEATHY 14% RETURN ON INVESTMENT, ANY COMPANY WOULD KILL FOR THOSE NUMBERS.
IF YOU ACTUALLY OWN A BUSINESS AND YOU HAVE TO KILL FOR 14% RETURN, YOU HAVE WHAT IS CALLED A FAILING BUSINESS.
rohleder644
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1/17/2018 5:45am Edited Date/Time 1/17/2018 5:48am
IF YOU COULD GET 400% RETURN ON INVESTMENT THEN EVERYBODY WHO HAD MONEY WOULD BE MAKING MOTORCYCLES. I BET ON A 9000 RETAIL PIECE THE DEALER...
IF YOU COULD GET 400% RETURN ON INVESTMENT THEN EVERYBODY WHO HAD MONEY WOULD BE MAKING MOTORCYCLES. I BET ON A 9000 RETAIL PIECE THE DEALER COST IS ABOUT 8000 AND FACTORY COST IS AROUND 7000. THATS A HEATHY 14% RETURN ON INVESTMENT, ANY COMPANY WOULD KILL FOR THOSE NUMBERS.
Donovan759 wrote:
IF YOU ACTUALLY OWN A BUSINESS AND YOU HAVE TO KILL FOR 14% RETURN, YOU HAVE WHAT IS CALLED A FAILING BUSINESS.
Nevermind, I re-read the post.
Carry on.
Idaho747
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1/17/2018 5:52am Edited Date/Time 1/17/2018 5:53am
Well I can pick up a 16 hold over rmz 450 at my local dealer for about 5 grand right now. And you know everyone is still making money on it.
bh84
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1/17/2018 6:18am
Not sure about MFG costs, but dealers typically make about 12-15% on a new bike, and 30-40% markup on clothing.
OldYZRider1
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1/17/2018 6:22am
JBecker 72 wrote:
My friend has a book on the history of the GSXR and that’s essentially what the book says about Suzuki. I also watched a YouTube vid...
My friend has a book on the history of the GSXR and that’s essentially what the book says about Suzuki.

I also watched a YouTube vid on KHI and it was talking about their parts delivery system. They dont get the parts for what they are working on until just before assembly. Thought that was pretty cool and efficient rather than having massive warehouses stocking every little item needed to complete a bike.
kzizok wrote:
It’s called “just in time” inventory.
reded wrote:
Works really well, until it doesn't. Then shit hits the fan!
"Just in time" delivery is what I sometimes refer to as "don't expect it right away" delivery. Overall I think JIT stretches out the production schedules of everything which can be a big negative. It was one of those ideas that appeared some 30 yrs ago and took off like wildfire through the manufacturing industry.
MR. X
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1/17/2018 6:30am
How about the mark up on plastic . Take for instance a whole plastic kit , 100 dollars or so for 5 dollars worth of plastic . I haven't studied every piece of plastic to determine if they use a hot runner system or other stuff that would add to the cost of tooling . I know some shops that only build tools will cost 5 times what a shop that runs the parts in house would charge for a new tool.
1/17/2018 6:30am
"Just in time" delivery is what I sometimes refer to as "don't expect it right away" delivery. Overall I think JIT stretches out the production schedules...
"Just in time" delivery is what I sometimes refer to as "don't expect it right away" delivery. Overall I think JIT stretches out the production schedules of everything which can be a big negative. It was one of those ideas that appeared some 30 yrs ago and took off like wildfire through the manufacturing industry.
JIT was developed by the Japanese in the 70s, and I believe it still the core of Toyota's mfg business model
oldandslow1
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1/17/2018 6:38am
IF YOU COULD GET 400% RETURN ON INVESTMENT THEN EVERYBODY WHO HAD MONEY WOULD BE MAKING MOTORCYCLES. I BET ON A 9000 RETAIL PIECE THE DEALER...
IF YOU COULD GET 400% RETURN ON INVESTMENT THEN EVERYBODY WHO HAD MONEY WOULD BE MAKING MOTORCYCLES. I BET ON A 9000 RETAIL PIECE THE DEALER COST IS ABOUT 8000 AND FACTORY COST IS AROUND 7000. THATS A HEATHY 14% RETURN ON INVESTMENT, ANY COMPANY WOULD KILL FOR THOSE NUMBERS.
Donovan759 wrote:
IF YOU ACTUALLY OWN A BUSINESS AND YOU HAVE TO KILL FOR 14% RETURN, YOU HAVE WHAT IS CALLED A FAILING BUSINESS.
For the record I’m referring to net profit. The average McDonald’s in America cost 2 million to get going and the average profit is $154000 or 7.7%. Pretty sure those are considered a successful business.
AZRider
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1/17/2018 6:48am
20-25% for cost of the actual parts and assembly of the motorcycle would be appropriate. A large part of my job is to help manufacturers all over the world in various industries and that is typically what i see. That is just the cost of the parts. Doesn't count fixed costs, marketing, R&D, distribution, etc. By the time all those things are factored in the numbers drop considerably. Profit is made in the volume. The costs are very different from what you would expect to see from a low volume boutique type product like a TM, etc. Anyone who thinks the actual motorcycle itself costs anywhere near what you pay is out of touch with manufacturing on a large scale.
AZRider
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1/17/2018 6:55am
[url=http://www.ktmgroup.com/globalassets/media/files/financial-reports/2017/gb2016-e_web.pdf]KTM Group 2016 Financial Report[/url] states that [b]2016 gross profit margin was 30.6%.[/b] So from an accounting stand point, for every $10,000 in sales, they profited...
KTM Group 2016 Financial Report states that 2016 gross profit margin was 30.6%. So from an accounting stand point, for every $10,000 in sales, they profited $3,060... meaning there was a $6,940 Cost of Goods Sold. Keep in mind this applies to ALL of KTM Group's revenue sources; bikes sales, merchandise, etc.

I did see in another article that in 2014, Harley Davidson earned 39% gross profit margin on their motorcycle line... so their cost for every $10,000 Harley was $6,100.
Sheriff245 wrote:
Except that KTM doesn’t sell bikes for 10,000. The dealer does. So their sale price would be dealer cost, making actual production cost a bit lower...
Except that KTM doesn’t sell bikes for 10,000. The dealer does. So their sale price would be dealer cost, making actual production cost a bit lower. But otherwise I agree with your conclusion.
I don't think it matters who the sales are to.... 30% GP margin is 30% GP margin, regardless. But this is probably a moot point to...
I don't think it matters who the sales are to.... 30% GP margin is 30% GP margin, regardless. But this is probably a moot point to squabble over Laughing As pointed out earlier, the fact that parts, accessories and merchandise is likely a 40-50%+ profit margin business, that says a lot about how much higher costs on the bikes are
Gross Profit is not Profit. EBIT or other numbers would be a much better indicator. I suggest people understand the financial terms being used before making assumptions.
1/17/2018 7:09am
AZRider wrote:
Gross Profit is not Profit. EBIT or other numbers would be a much better indicator. I suggest people understand the financial terms being used before making...
Gross Profit is not Profit. EBIT or other numbers would be a much better indicator. I suggest people understand the financial terms being used before making assumptions.
I'm aware, hence gross profit, not net profit, not EBIT, not EBITDA, etc. Forgive me for trying to create a post that resembled at least a semi rational thought. Fuck it, we'll go with dude's 400% number. Stamp it. Laughing
Donovan759
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1/17/2018 8:54am
IF YOU COULD GET 400% RETURN ON INVESTMENT THEN EVERYBODY WHO HAD MONEY WOULD BE MAKING MOTORCYCLES. I BET ON A 9000 RETAIL PIECE THE DEALER...
IF YOU COULD GET 400% RETURN ON INVESTMENT THEN EVERYBODY WHO HAD MONEY WOULD BE MAKING MOTORCYCLES. I BET ON A 9000 RETAIL PIECE THE DEALER COST IS ABOUT 8000 AND FACTORY COST IS AROUND 7000. THATS A HEATHY 14% RETURN ON INVESTMENT, ANY COMPANY WOULD KILL FOR THOSE NUMBERS.
Donovan759 wrote:
IF YOU ACTUALLY OWN A BUSINESS AND YOU HAVE TO KILL FOR 14% RETURN, YOU HAVE WHAT IS CALLED A FAILING BUSINESS.
For the record I’m referring to net profit. The average McDonald’s in America cost 2 million to get going and the average profit is $154000 or...
For the record I’m referring to net profit. The average McDonald’s in America cost 2 million to get going and the average profit is $154000 or 7.7%. Pretty sure those are considered a successful business.
I assumed you were. Not many people work from GPM that I know of when discussing their actual profit. And this point would be totally relevant, IF motorcycle manufactures sold anywhere close to as many motorcycles as McDonalds sells Big Macs... You're comparing a french fry to Filet mignon here.
oldandslow1
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1/17/2018 10:41am
Donovan759 wrote:
IF YOU ACTUALLY OWN A BUSINESS AND YOU HAVE TO KILL FOR 14% RETURN, YOU HAVE WHAT IS CALLED A FAILING BUSINESS.
For the record I’m referring to net profit. The average McDonald’s in America cost 2 million to get going and the average profit is $154000 or...
For the record I’m referring to net profit. The average McDonald’s in America cost 2 million to get going and the average profit is $154000 or 7.7%. Pretty sure those are considered a successful business.
Donovan759 wrote:
I assumed you were. Not many people work from GPM that I know of when discussing their actual profit. And this point would be totally relevant...
I assumed you were. Not many people work from GPM that I know of when discussing their actual profit. And this point would be totally relevant, IF motorcycle manufactures sold anywhere close to as many motorcycles as McDonalds sells Big Macs... You're comparing a french fry to Filet mignon here.
What I’m talking about is return on investment regardless of what your selling.

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