Pro Circuit Ti-6 Sytem for CRF 250 '18....HEAVY !!

luckynino
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3/1/2018 4:17am Edited Date/Time 3/29/2018 6:26pm
My friend got his brandnew CRF 250 '18 a few weeks ago and after we verified it's weight (overweight) we started looking for ways to get her lighter...the stock dual exhaust was one of the items we checked and it indeed weighs a hefty 4700g / 10,7 lbs

We then took those heatshields off as well as the resonance chamber (Yoshi & PC come without it as well)...this alone was worth over half a kilo (511g = 1,1 lbs)


This way the stock exhaust weighed 4200g = 9,25 lbs

Modified and slimmed stock exhaust:



Now my friend obviously still wasn't happy and while hoping to improve the lackluster power he hoped for a nice weight loss when ordering a full Titanium exhaust system...so he just got his new Pro Circuit exhaust system for his CRF 250 2018

TI-6 PRO DUAL CARBON TI-SYSTEM, CRF250R '2018

He really hoped to shed some weight to help the overweight CRF regain some ground...well - NOT SO!

The Pro Circuit Ti system is still quite heavy: 4100g = 9,04 lbs (so just 100g lighter than the modified stocker Wink )

No review on how it performs as we have super-low temperatures and snow over here in Switzerland. But the weight loss was really minimal at best and a big disappointment! Lets hope it rocks the house at least powerwise...







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Bultaco
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3/1/2018 5:25am
The lightness is in your wallet.
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early
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3/1/2018 5:30am
In a recent podcast with Matthes, Doug Dubach had some interesting insight regarding dual pipes. It's definitely worth a listen.
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Steadman
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3/1/2018 5:45am
I think starting off with a motorcycle with a dual exhaust is the problem here, although I would feel the same frustration as your friend.

The Shop

c0ncEpT
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3/1/2018 5:48am
IMO 1-2lbs is pretty typical. Its not like your going from a dual muffler to a single.
3/1/2018 5:56am
early wrote:
In a recent podcast with Matthes, Doug Dubach had some interesting insight regarding dual pipes. It's definitely worth a listen.
which one
twotwosix
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3/1/2018 6:02am Edited Date/Time 3/1/2018 6:03am
This sounds perfectly normal to me man. Perhaps you guys should have researched the weights before ordering? Making a thread online just to call it HEAVY! is kind of silly.
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kb228
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3/1/2018 6:06am
Like others said, a couple pounds is normal. You pay for the titanium mostly.
tempura
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3/1/2018 6:39am
He bought a bike with electric start and twin exhaust system...
Want light, buy a new KTM/husky 125 2stroke.
yz133rider
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3/1/2018 6:42am
tempura wrote:
He bought a bike with electric start and twin exhaust system...
Want light, buy a new KTM/husky 125 2stroke.
Or ktm 250f
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luckynino
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3/1/2018 8:06am Edited Date/Time 3/1/2018 8:06am
twotwosix wrote:
This sounds perfectly normal to me man. Perhaps you guys should have researched the weights before ordering? Making a thread online just to call it HEAVY...
This sounds perfectly normal to me man. Perhaps you guys should have researched the weights before ordering? Making a thread online just to call it HEAVY! is kind of silly.
I am a hardcore twostroke rider and specialized in low weight. I managed to save over 8,5 kilos / 18 lbs on my CR 125cc....and while doing so put everything on my scale and put everything online so people get reliable and verified weights. IF i would have the 2018 CRF 250 my No. 1 priority would be to get rid of those 5 kilos/ 11 lbs overweight!

Now - YOU tell me a reliable source for exhaust weights! There is noone telling you....

There is none available. On a typical Titanium single exhaust system the savings usually are in the 2 lbs region. So having actually 2 exhausts expectations were definitely higher for sure.

My thread is to let people know that at least regarding weight the expense for a titanium Po Circuit system isn't worth it.
Let's hope it rips on track....i will let you guys know.
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RussB
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3/1/2018 8:23am
Good work Nino, thanks for reporting.
I don't own a CRF250 but it's good to see stuff like this. If more people reported their findings it would give everyone else the chance to make a more informed decision before dumping a load of money only to be disappointed.

It appears as though Honda have made a fairly light stock system, or the Pro Circuit guys didn't put huge effort into weight savings. Hopefully the performance gains make it a more worthwhile investment!

p.s. im still running your fat bike innertube mod with great success. £8 for a 400g plus saving, still one of the most effective mods I've ever come across, thanks!
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GPrider
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3/1/2018 8:30am
your not going to go any faster if its even four pounds lighter. Get an exhaust to help the bottom end, forget about the weight! Quit listening to MXA. If the KTM/Husky did not exist, the weight argument would have never happened, Its in everybody's head. Fricken RMZ450 2018 is a perfect example. The new honda handles like a dream. Just fill in the weak spot in the powerband and go kill it!
3/1/2018 8:56am Edited Date/Time 3/1/2018 9:13am
kb228 wrote:
Like others said, a couple pounds is normal. You pay for the titanium mostly.
Right.

But according to the OP, it isn't a couple of pounds lighter. Or even one pound lighter. Once you omit the standard guards that the Pro Circuit design doesn't include, it is just over two-tenths of a pound lighter.

If it was a couple of pounds lighter, it sounds like he may be satisfied.
Pnwride
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3/1/2018 8:56am
It would be interesting to see the weight of the stainless PC version compared to the PC ti your friend has.
luckynino
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3/1/2018 8:57am
GPrider wrote:
your not going to go any faster if its even four pounds lighter. Get an exhaust to help the bottom end, forget about the weight! Quit...
your not going to go any faster if its even four pounds lighter. Get an exhaust to help the bottom end, forget about the weight! Quit listening to MXA. If the KTM/Husky did not exist, the weight argument would have never happened, Its in everybody's head. Fricken RMZ450 2018 is a perfect example. The new honda handles like a dream. Just fill in the weak spot in the powerband and go kill it!
Well - you obviously have never ridden a light bike, right?

Ever wonder why a 125cc feels so freaking light? It is flickable and you can throw it around like a bicycle...THAT'S THE WEIGHT , or better the lack of it you feel there! Weight for me is No.1 priority for ages already. As mentioned above i got my 125cc to weigh just 194 lbs and i can tell you it feels like a bicycle. That's 15 kilos / 33 lbs less than a 250F !!!

Less weight can be felt 4 times:

acceleration (lighter accelerates faster)
braking (lighter brakes later)
cornering (lighter bike is more flickable and let's you change line with ease)
fatigue (it tires you less to grip a light bike)

Horsepower instead is an advantage in acceleration only

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3/1/2018 9:14am
RussB wrote:
Good work Nino, thanks for reporting. I don't own a CRF250 but it's good to see stuff like this. If more people reported their findings it...
Good work Nino, thanks for reporting.
I don't own a CRF250 but it's good to see stuff like this. If more people reported their findings it would give everyone else the chance to make a more informed decision before dumping a load of money only to be disappointed.

It appears as though Honda have made a fairly light stock system, or the Pro Circuit guys didn't put huge effort into weight savings. Hopefully the performance gains make it a more worthwhile investment!

p.s. im still running your fat bike innertube mod with great success. £8 for a 400g plus saving, still one of the most effective mods I've ever come across, thanks!
Please explain this innertube mod? Im interested.
SPYGUY
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3/1/2018 9:18am
GPrider wrote:
your not going to go any faster if its even four pounds lighter. Get an exhaust to help the bottom end, forget about the weight! Quit...
your not going to go any faster if its even four pounds lighter. Get an exhaust to help the bottom end, forget about the weight! Quit listening to MXA. If the KTM/Husky did not exist, the weight argument would have never happened, Its in everybody's head. Fricken RMZ450 2018 is a perfect example. The new honda handles like a dream. Just fill in the weak spot in the powerband and go kill it!
luckynino wrote:
Well - you obviously have never ridden a light bike, right? Ever wonder why a 125cc feels so freaking light? It is flickable and you can...
Well - you obviously have never ridden a light bike, right?

Ever wonder why a 125cc feels so freaking light? It is flickable and you can throw it around like a bicycle...THAT'S THE WEIGHT , or better the lack of it you feel there! Weight for me is No.1 priority for ages already. As mentioned above i got my 125cc to weigh just 194 lbs and i can tell you it feels like a bicycle. That's 15 kilos / 33 lbs less than a 250F !!!

Less weight can be felt 4 times:

acceleration (lighter accelerates faster)
braking (lighter brakes later)
cornering (lighter bike is more flickable and let's you change line with ease)
fatigue (it tires you less to grip a light bike)

Horsepower instead is an advantage in acceleration only

The reason a 125 feels so light and flickable has more to do with the lessened gyroscopic effect and inertia of a smaller piston and crank than the actual weight difference of the bike in it's entirety. Same reason a KTM 350 handles better than a KTM 450 even though the weight difference is virtually nothing.
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BobPA
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3/1/2018 9:25am
GPrider wrote:
your not going to go any faster if its even four pounds lighter. Get an exhaust to help the bottom end, forget about the weight! Quit...
your not going to go any faster if its even four pounds lighter. Get an exhaust to help the bottom end, forget about the weight! Quit listening to MXA. If the KTM/Husky did not exist, the weight argument would have never happened, Its in everybody's head. Fricken RMZ450 2018 is a perfect example. The new honda handles like a dream. Just fill in the weak spot in the powerband and go kill it!
But the Austrian bikes do exist, and are exposing the other bikes as being overweight. The point should also be noted that a light bike will always accelerate and brake quicker even if it does not "feel" lighter.

This thread also proves that Honda definitely put some effort into the stock system...
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yz133rider
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3/1/2018 9:25am
GPrider wrote:
your not going to go any faster if its even four pounds lighter. Get an exhaust to help the bottom end, forget about the weight! Quit...
your not going to go any faster if its even four pounds lighter. Get an exhaust to help the bottom end, forget about the weight! Quit listening to MXA. If the KTM/Husky did not exist, the weight argument would have never happened, Its in everybody's head. Fricken RMZ450 2018 is a perfect example. The new honda handles like a dream. Just fill in the weak spot in the powerband and go kill it!
luckynino wrote:
Well - you obviously have never ridden a light bike, right? Ever wonder why a 125cc feels so freaking light? It is flickable and you can...
Well - you obviously have never ridden a light bike, right?

Ever wonder why a 125cc feels so freaking light? It is flickable and you can throw it around like a bicycle...THAT'S THE WEIGHT , or better the lack of it you feel there! Weight for me is No.1 priority for ages already. As mentioned above i got my 125cc to weigh just 194 lbs and i can tell you it feels like a bicycle. That's 15 kilos / 33 lbs less than a 250F !!!

Less weight can be felt 4 times:

acceleration (lighter accelerates faster)
braking (lighter brakes later)
cornering (lighter bike is more flickable and let's you change line with ease)
fatigue (it tires you less to grip a light bike)

Horsepower instead is an advantage in acceleration only

SPYGUY wrote:
The reason a 125 feels so light and flickable has more to do with the lessened gyroscopic effect and inertia of a smaller piston and crank...
The reason a 125 feels so light and flickable has more to do with the lessened gyroscopic effect and inertia of a smaller piston and crank than the actual weight difference of the bike in it's entirety. Same reason a KTM 350 handles better than a KTM 450 even though the weight difference is virtually nothing.
I think this gyroscopic effect talk is getting out of hand personally.
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3/1/2018 9:34am
luckynino wrote:
Well - you obviously have never ridden a light bike, right? Ever wonder why a 125cc feels so freaking light? It is flickable and you can...
Well - you obviously have never ridden a light bike, right?

Ever wonder why a 125cc feels so freaking light? It is flickable and you can throw it around like a bicycle...THAT'S THE WEIGHT , or better the lack of it you feel there! Weight for me is No.1 priority for ages already. As mentioned above i got my 125cc to weigh just 194 lbs and i can tell you it feels like a bicycle. That's 15 kilos / 33 lbs less than a 250F !!!

Less weight can be felt 4 times:

acceleration (lighter accelerates faster)
braking (lighter brakes later)
cornering (lighter bike is more flickable and let's you change line with ease)
fatigue (it tires you less to grip a light bike)

Horsepower instead is an advantage in acceleration only

SPYGUY wrote:
The reason a 125 feels so light and flickable has more to do with the lessened gyroscopic effect and inertia of a smaller piston and crank...
The reason a 125 feels so light and flickable has more to do with the lessened gyroscopic effect and inertia of a smaller piston and crank than the actual weight difference of the bike in it's entirety. Same reason a KTM 350 handles better than a KTM 450 even though the weight difference is virtually nothing.
yz133rider wrote:
I think this gyroscopic effect talk is getting out of hand personally.
I agree. Yes my 125 has less rotating mass than your 450. But you don't think the fact that a 1985 CR125 has nearly 50 lbs less total mass, and it's all down low, has much the majority to do with why it handles like a mountain bike compared to a modern 450?
3/1/2018 9:42am
GPrider wrote:
your not going to go any faster if its even four pounds lighter. Get an exhaust to help the bottom end, forget about the weight! Quit...
your not going to go any faster if its even four pounds lighter. Get an exhaust to help the bottom end, forget about the weight! Quit listening to MXA. If the KTM/Husky did not exist, the weight argument would have never happened, Its in everybody's head. Fricken RMZ450 2018 is a perfect example. The new honda handles like a dream. Just fill in the weak spot in the powerband and go kill it!
Amen lol half the guys on here won’t notice the difference. Whether it’s a Suzuki or ktm they will probably go the same speed
yz133rider
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3/1/2018 9:44am
SPYGUY wrote:
The reason a 125 feels so light and flickable has more to do with the lessened gyroscopic effect and inertia of a smaller piston and crank...
The reason a 125 feels so light and flickable has more to do with the lessened gyroscopic effect and inertia of a smaller piston and crank than the actual weight difference of the bike in it's entirety. Same reason a KTM 350 handles better than a KTM 450 even though the weight difference is virtually nothing.
yz133rider wrote:
I think this gyroscopic effect talk is getting out of hand personally.
I agree. Yes my 125 has less rotating mass than your 450. But you don't think the fact that a 1985 CR125 has nearly 50 lbs...
I agree. Yes my 125 has less rotating mass than your 450. But you don't think the fact that a 1985 CR125 has nearly 50 lbs less total mass, and it's all down low, has much the majority to do with why it handles like a mountain bike compared to a modern 450?
Yep. Modern 450s feel like tanks because they are.
Four strokes all have gained significant weight since like 08 or so. And they were already significantly heavier than the 2 strokes were.

Ktm IS crushing it with getting weights back down.

Ama needs to drop the weight minimums they are too high for the four strokes.
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SPYGUY
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3/1/2018 9:47am
yz133rider wrote:
I think this gyroscopic effect talk is getting out of hand personally.
If anything is getting out of hand it's all the talk from novice riders about how they can feel the added comfort via the additional flex that a steel frame provides.

As for gyroscopic effect, if you ride a KTM 250, 350 and 450 back to back to back, you'll notice a distinct difference in handling even though the weight on the scale isn't much different.
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mattyhamz2
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3/1/2018 9:47am
GPrider wrote:
your not going to go any faster if its even four pounds lighter. Get an exhaust to help the bottom end, forget about the weight! Quit...
your not going to go any faster if its even four pounds lighter. Get an exhaust to help the bottom end, forget about the weight! Quit listening to MXA. If the KTM/Husky did not exist, the weight argument would have never happened, Its in everybody's head. Fricken RMZ450 2018 is a perfect example. The new honda handles like a dream. Just fill in the weak spot in the powerband and go kill it!
luckynino wrote:
Well - you obviously have never ridden a light bike, right? Ever wonder why a 125cc feels so freaking light? It is flickable and you can...
Well - you obviously have never ridden a light bike, right?

Ever wonder why a 125cc feels so freaking light? It is flickable and you can throw it around like a bicycle...THAT'S THE WEIGHT , or better the lack of it you feel there! Weight for me is No.1 priority for ages already. As mentioned above i got my 125cc to weigh just 194 lbs and i can tell you it feels like a bicycle. That's 15 kilos / 33 lbs less than a 250F !!!

Less weight can be felt 4 times:

acceleration (lighter accelerates faster)
braking (lighter brakes later)
cornering (lighter bike is more flickable and let's you change line with ease)
fatigue (it tires you less to grip a light bike)

Horsepower instead is an advantage in acceleration only

SPYGUY wrote:
The reason a 125 feels so light and flickable has more to do with the lessened gyroscopic effect and inertia of a smaller piston and crank...
The reason a 125 feels so light and flickable has more to do with the lessened gyroscopic effect and inertia of a smaller piston and crank than the actual weight difference of the bike in it's entirety. Same reason a KTM 350 handles better than a KTM 450 even though the weight difference is virtually nothing.
And don't forget about how the weight is distributed. That's why the Honda, being the same weight as the Yamaha and Suzuki, feels just as light as the KTM. To me, weight doesn't matter. I'm not a guy that's throwing my bike around over every jump.
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3/1/2018 9:48am
yz133rider wrote:
I think this gyroscopic effect talk is getting out of hand personally.
SPYGUY wrote:
If anything is getting out of hand it's all the talk from novice riders about how they can feel the added comfort via the additional flex...
If anything is getting out of hand it's all the talk from novice riders about how they can feel the added comfort via the additional flex that a steel frame provides.

As for gyroscopic effect, if you ride a KTM 250, 350 and 450 back to back to back, you'll notice a distinct difference in handling even though the weight on the scale isn't much different.
Righ, but the weight on the scale is significantly different (as is the effect on handling) to that of a 125.
yz133rider
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3/1/2018 9:53am
yz133rider wrote:
I think this gyroscopic effect talk is getting out of hand personally.
SPYGUY wrote:
If anything is getting out of hand it's all the talk from novice riders about how they can feel the added comfort via the additional flex...
If anything is getting out of hand it's all the talk from novice riders about how they can feel the added comfort via the additional flex that a steel frame provides.

As for gyroscopic effect, if you ride a KTM 250, 350 and 450 back to back to back, you'll notice a distinct difference in handling even though the weight on the scale isn't much different.
I think that feeling has more to do with how the bikes make power and deliver it. 450s are so torquey they push u around even in low rpms and low throttle inputs. That causes the suspension to load more, rider to feel more fatiqued, bumps to feel worse etc.
1
luckynino
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3/1/2018 9:54am Edited Date/Time 3/1/2018 9:59am
RussB wrote:
Good work Nino, thanks for reporting. I don't own a CRF250 but it's good to see stuff like this. If more people reported their findings it...
Good work Nino, thanks for reporting.
I don't own a CRF250 but it's good to see stuff like this. If more people reported their findings it would give everyone else the chance to make a more informed decision before dumping a load of money only to be disappointed.

It appears as though Honda have made a fairly light stock system, or the Pro Circuit guys didn't put huge effort into weight savings. Hopefully the performance gains make it a more worthwhile investment!

p.s. im still running your fat bike innertube mod with great success. £8 for a 400g plus saving, still one of the most effective mods I've ever come across, thanks!
Please explain this innertube mod? Im interested.
A regular hevay-duty innertube weighs about 1000-1500g (front) and up to 2000g (rear)

I use lightweight innertubes for FATBIKES, that's those Mountainbikes with huge, fat tires:



Those innertubes are designed for the huge volume tires. So it's not your typical bicycle tube which would get over-streched when being put in a big MX tire. These are already designed for the fat tires and won't get too streched anymore which obviously would weaken them.

German brand Schwalbe SV13J Fatbike innertube:




They come in 26" size yet fit our MX tires front & rear!



Now 99,9% of all guys will say: "but they won't hold up, you get flats all the time"

Well - i'm coming from building ultralight bycicles and when you do some research they did comparison tests on bicycle innertubes where they tested rolling resistances and also tested resistance against punctures. The thin, lightweight innertubes obviously suffer when the puncture comes from a penetrating object (thorns,glass etc). But on a MX track we don't have any objects going through our tires. Our flats are from getting a snakebite when bottoming out or hitting a square edge/sharp rock which pinches our tubes between rim and tire. And the tests on bicycle tubes showed that the gain in protection against pinchflats is only minimally reduced when using thicker tube material....anyway - i'm using these tubes since almost 3 years now and didn't get any more flats than before. BUT i save almost 1 kilo / 2 lbs PER WHEEL (!) by using these innertubes. That's rotating mass! Less rotating mass makes for a flickable bike, you have much less inertia. And once again - lighter wheels make for faster acceleration! A heavy wheel needs more force to be accelerated than a light one....so having lighter wheels is actually like having a more powerful engine!! This is like mounting a turbo on your bike!

I furthermore pair them to Pirelli tires which again are some of the lightest tires around. They're usually about 1 lbs lighter than a comparable Dunlop.

----> in the end you get wheels that are about 5-6 lbs lighter.

Downside?
The Presta valve Wink

For those not wanting to hassle with a bicycle pump:

You can still opt for a Maxxis Fatbike innertube which is just slightly heavier but comes with a more common Schrader valve:


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