Pit bits WP shock

ZOBITO
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ZOBITO
Edited Date/Time 2/15/2021 8:12am
"The interesting part right now is watching a few of the KTM and Husky riders bounce back and forth between the WP Air and traditional spring shock. At the final Indy round, both Cooper Webb and Jason Anderson were on the spring shocks, while Osborne, Musquin, and Barcia were all on the spring shock. Talking with some of the crew there, it comes down to rider preference. "

So, in the end, with this little typo, who's using what?
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soggy
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soggy 2/13/2021 7:30am
2/13/2021 7:30am
Webb and Anderson switched to spring I think
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-MAVERICK-
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-MAVERICK- 2/13/2021 8:00am
2/13/2021 8:00am
ZOBITO wrote:
Serious question, btw.
Wink
LOL. Give GuyB a break. It was like 3 in the morning when he posted it.

Air Shock

Osborne
Musquin
Barcia

Spring

Anderson
Webb
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ZOBITO
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ZOBITO 2/13/2021 8:30am
2/13/2021 8:30am
Thx!
I was curious, and expecting the opposite, since Webb seemed pretty enthusiastic about the air shock.
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dirtwalker 2/13/2021 11:32am
2/13/2021 11:32am Edited Date/Time 2/13/2021 11:32am
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I think it was Bacia i mostly remember)
But thats the problem with an air spring, its vulnerable to temperature changes.
Its like they have been coached to deny the very existence of the biggest challenge it has.
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OnTheCrossbar 2/13/2021 11:56am
2/13/2021 11:56am
downard254 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/02/13/478327/s1200_ED2EC539_69BD_47B1_8FF1_C4B1D958F1AE.jpg[/img]

Seems pretty coherent to me, try reading it again maybe.
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Brent
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Brent 2/13/2021 3:04pm
2/13/2021 3:04pm
OnTheCrossbar wrote:
Seems pretty coherent to me, try reading it again maybe.
"At the final Indy round, both Cooper Webb and Jason Anderson were on the spring shocks, while Osborne, Musquin, and Barcia were all on the spring shock"


I think he meant to write "Air Shock"...
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WEAL
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WEAL 2/13/2021 3:18pm
2/13/2021 3:18pm
dirtwalker wrote:
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I...
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I think it was Bacia i mostly remember)
But thats the problem with an air spring, its vulnerable to temperature changes.
Its like they have been coached to deny the very existence of the biggest challenge it has.
There is no air in it
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theycallmeebryan 2/13/2021 4:00pm
2/13/2021 4:00pm
dirtwalker wrote:
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I...
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I think it was Bacia i mostly remember)
But thats the problem with an air spring, its vulnerable to temperature changes.
Its like they have been coached to deny the very existence of the biggest challenge it has.
Shocks fade when they get hot because the oil runs thinner. A coil spring doesn't experience spring rate change when the shock gets hot, so the shock will feel like it has less damping as the oil gets hotter.

Since the air pressure will raise slightly as the temperature raises, this stiffer spring force negates/acts against the fade effect of the oil getting hot. So overall, its more consistent because it'll "feel" very similar from cold to hot.

That's the idea anyway.
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dirtwalker 2/13/2021 5:47pm
2/13/2021 5:47pm
dirtwalker wrote:
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I...
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I think it was Bacia i mostly remember)
But thats the problem with an air spring, its vulnerable to temperature changes.
Its like they have been coached to deny the very existence of the biggest challenge it has.
theycallmeebryan wrote:
Shocks fade when they get hot because the oil runs thinner. A coil spring doesn't experience spring rate change when the shock gets hot, so the...
Shocks fade when they get hot because the oil runs thinner. A coil spring doesn't experience spring rate change when the shock gets hot, so the shock will feel like it has less damping as the oil gets hotter.

Since the air pressure will raise slightly as the temperature raises, this stiffer spring force negates/acts against the fade effect of the oil getting hot. So overall, its more consistent because it'll "feel" very similar from cold to hot.

That's the idea anyway.
Sound ok on the surface. But this means having two variables instead of one. just think about what that means for rebound - stiffer spring and lower dampening = faster rebound x 2.
Also usually, the air spring ends up adding more heat into the oil due to proximity- even the best layouts have some of this effect.

I am not being all negative on the new technology - i have a fair bit of experience with air shocks. Its just strange the way it was talked about.
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Bruce372
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Bruce372 2/13/2021 5:52pm
2/13/2021 5:52pm
dirtwalker wrote:
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I...
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I think it was Bacia i mostly remember)
But thats the problem with an air spring, its vulnerable to temperature changes.
Its like they have been coached to deny the very existence of the biggest challenge it has.
theycallmeebryan wrote:
Shocks fade when they get hot because the oil runs thinner. A coil spring doesn't experience spring rate change when the shock gets hot, so the...
Shocks fade when they get hot because the oil runs thinner. A coil spring doesn't experience spring rate change when the shock gets hot, so the shock will feel like it has less damping as the oil gets hotter.

Since the air pressure will raise slightly as the temperature raises, this stiffer spring force negates/acts against the fade effect of the oil getting hot. So overall, its more consistent because it'll "feel" very similar from cold to hot.

That's the idea anyway.
dirtwalker wrote:
Sound ok on the surface. But this means having two variables instead of one. just think about what that means for rebound - stiffer spring and...
Sound ok on the surface. But this means having two variables instead of one. just think about what that means for rebound - stiffer spring and lower dampening = faster rebound x 2.
Also usually, the air spring ends up adding more heat into the oil due to proximity- even the best layouts have some of this effect.

I am not being all negative on the new technology - i have a fair bit of experience with air shocks. Its just strange the way it was talked about.
Barcia won the first race of the season so maybe WP are on to something?

Maybe its easier to dissipate pressure increases vs temperature increases?

Maybe rhe shock design makes it run cooler?
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GuyB
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GuyB 2/13/2021 11:57pm
2/13/2021 11:57pm
ZOBITO wrote:
Serious question, btw.
Wink
-MAVERICK- wrote:
LOL. Give GuyB a break. It was like 3 in the morning when he posted it.

Air Shock

Osborne
Musquin
Barcia

Spring

Anderson
Webb
I think I went back and corrected that earlier. I’ll go doublecheck.

Now that he’s back, you can add Wilson to the spring list.

From what I hear, it just comes down to rider preference. Zach likes the way it works.
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stremme12
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stremme12 2/14/2021 12:41am
2/14/2021 12:41am Edited Date/Time 2/14/2021 12:41am
ZOBITO wrote:
Serious question, btw.
Wink
-MAVERICK- wrote:
LOL. Give GuyB a break. It was like 3 in the morning when he posted it.

Air Shock

Osborne
Musquin
Barcia

Spring

Anderson
Webb
GuyB wrote:
I think I went back and corrected that earlier. I’ll go doublecheck. Now that he’s back, you can add Wilson to the spring list. From what...
I think I went back and corrected that earlier. I’ll go doublecheck.

Now that he’s back, you can add Wilson to the spring list.

From what I hear, it just comes down to rider preference. Zach likes the way it works.
Wilson said he wasn't ever given the opportunity to even try the air shock.
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#434
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#434 2/14/2021 3:16am
2/14/2021 3:16am
dirtwalker wrote:
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I...
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I think it was Bacia i mostly remember)
But thats the problem with an air spring, its vulnerable to temperature changes.
Its like they have been coached to deny the very existence of the biggest challenge it has.
theycallmeebryan wrote:
Shocks fade when they get hot because the oil runs thinner. A coil spring doesn't experience spring rate change when the shock gets hot, so the...
Shocks fade when they get hot because the oil runs thinner. A coil spring doesn't experience spring rate change when the shock gets hot, so the shock will feel like it has less damping as the oil gets hotter.

Since the air pressure will raise slightly as the temperature raises, this stiffer spring force negates/acts against the fade effect of the oil getting hot. So overall, its more consistent because it'll "feel" very similar from cold to hot.

That's the idea anyway.
It‘s amazing how many moto guys don’t have the slightest idea what the difference between a spring and a damper is..
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mwssquad827
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mwssquad827 2/14/2021 6:39am
2/14/2021 6:39am
I don’t know anything about the air shock but the air forks are very finicky and when heated up(long desert race) they are horrible.. I feel like the euro bike should have learned there lessen with the air suspension.. also all 5 of those dude will run and talk up whatever the factory team pushes or puts on there bikes but I will take springs all day for my slow vet B riding!!

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Riesenberg448
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Riesenberg448 2/14/2021 9:36pm
2/14/2021 9:36pm
dirtwalker wrote:
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I...
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I think it was Bacia i mostly remember)
But thats the problem with an air spring, its vulnerable to temperature changes.
Its like they have been coached to deny the very existence of the biggest challenge it has.
theycallmeebryan wrote:
Shocks fade when they get hot because the oil runs thinner. A coil spring doesn't experience spring rate change when the shock gets hot, so the...
Shocks fade when they get hot because the oil runs thinner. A coil spring doesn't experience spring rate change when the shock gets hot, so the shock will feel like it has less damping as the oil gets hotter.

Since the air pressure will raise slightly as the temperature raises, this stiffer spring force negates/acts against the fade effect of the oil getting hot. So overall, its more consistent because it'll "feel" very similar from cold to hot.

That's the idea anyway.
Have you heard this from someone with some experience Bryan? Your point makes some sense, but increasing in spring rate and decreasing valving are typically not going to equate to "similar feel". On compression, somewhat makes sense, but the rebound I feel like would be even further out of whack.

I haven't asked anyone at work specifically about the air shock, but your point had me thinking and scratching my head at the same time.

There is always the rider's mental side, their coached mental side from the company/tuner, and the real feel working together; so it'll maybe take some time before we actually know if it's superior.
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OrangeJuice158 2/14/2021 10:36pm
2/14/2021 10:36pm Edited Date/Time 2/14/2021 10:38pm
dirtwalker wrote:
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I...
What i don’t get is the a few riders say something like “the air shock is really good as doesn’t get affected by heating up”. (I think it was Bacia i mostly remember)
But thats the problem with an air spring, its vulnerable to temperature changes.
Its like they have been coached to deny the very existence of the biggest challenge it has.
theycallmeebryan wrote:
Shocks fade when they get hot because the oil runs thinner. A coil spring doesn't experience spring rate change when the shock gets hot, so the...
Shocks fade when they get hot because the oil runs thinner. A coil spring doesn't experience spring rate change when the shock gets hot, so the shock will feel like it has less damping as the oil gets hotter.

Since the air pressure will raise slightly as the temperature raises, this stiffer spring force negates/acts against the fade effect of the oil getting hot. So overall, its more consistent because it'll "feel" very similar from cold to hot.

That's the idea anyway.
dirtwalker wrote:
Sound ok on the surface. But this means having two variables instead of one. just think about what that means for rebound - stiffer spring and...
Sound ok on the surface. But this means having two variables instead of one. just think about what that means for rebound - stiffer spring and lower dampening = faster rebound x 2.
Also usually, the air spring ends up adding more heat into the oil due to proximity- even the best layouts have some of this effect.

I am not being all negative on the new technology - i have a fair bit of experience with air shocks. Its just strange the way it was talked about.
We know from one of the early ones failing on RDs bike in that heat race that their is a relief valve in the system. This might actually keep the spring force pretty consistent (assuming they recharge it after every Moto)
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DonM
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DonM 2/15/2021 8:12am
2/15/2021 8:12am
theycallmeebryan wrote:
Shocks fade when they get hot because the oil runs thinner. A coil spring doesn't experience spring rate change when the shock gets hot, so the...
Shocks fade when they get hot because the oil runs thinner. A coil spring doesn't experience spring rate change when the shock gets hot, so the shock will feel like it has less damping as the oil gets hotter.

Since the air pressure will raise slightly as the temperature raises, this stiffer spring force negates/acts against the fade effect of the oil getting hot. So overall, its more consistent because it'll "feel" very similar from cold to hot.

That's the idea anyway.
dirtwalker wrote:
Sound ok on the surface. But this means having two variables instead of one. just think about what that means for rebound - stiffer spring and...
Sound ok on the surface. But this means having two variables instead of one. just think about what that means for rebound - stiffer spring and lower dampening = faster rebound x 2.
Also usually, the air spring ends up adding more heat into the oil due to proximity- even the best layouts have some of this effect.

I am not being all negative on the new technology - i have a fair bit of experience with air shocks. Its just strange the way it was talked about.
OrangeJuice158 wrote:
We know from one of the early ones failing on RDs bike in that heat race that their is a relief valve in the system. This...
We know from one of the early ones failing on RDs bike in that heat race that their is a relief valve in the system. This might actually keep the spring force pretty consistent (assuming they recharge it after every Moto)
That shock and this shock are very very different....
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theycallmeebryan 2/15/2021 8:58am
2/15/2021 8:58am
Riesenberg448 wrote:
Have you heard this from someone with some experience Bryan? Your point makes some sense, but increasing in spring rate and decreasing valving are typically not...
Have you heard this from someone with some experience Bryan? Your point makes some sense, but increasing in spring rate and decreasing valving are typically not going to equate to "similar feel". On compression, somewhat makes sense, but the rebound I feel like would be even further out of whack.

I haven't asked anyone at work specifically about the air shock, but your point had me thinking and scratching my head at the same time.

There is always the rider's mental side, their coached mental side from the company/tuner, and the real feel working together; so it'll maybe take some time before we actually know if it's superior.
I'm basing it on comments guys like Barcia made in interviews. I'm assuming the feel in the compression stroke would be maintained (increased air pressure offsets slightly less comp damping due to oil thinning), but a slightly increased spring rate does required more rebound damping, so i'd be curious how they are managing that.

Doesn't seem to be an issue with mountain bike air shocks, but motocross is a different beast.

Really looking forward to seeing a consumer version of it.

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