Parity – Dutch Championship 2 vs 4

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9/12/2017 4:07 AM

Parity – Dutch Championship


The KNMV (Dutch Federation) has decided to change the Motocross Championship rules for 2018. All MX1 and MX2 classes will change the name. MX1 will become “450cc” and will be open for 2-stroke as well as 4-stroke engines (parity). MX2 will become “250cc” and will also be open for 2-stroke as well as 4-stroke engines (parity). All the other classes, from 50cc up to 125cc, will be exclusively 2-stroke engines.

Rinze Bremmer, KNMV: “It is important to keep the sport affordable for all the classes; the decision goes in the right direction.

Jeffrey Herlings: I think its a good decision to even up the cc for two and four strokes, also for the manufacturers”, comIn the past riders like Carmichael could be competitive with a 2 stroke but because of the development of the 4 stroke engine the difference is to big now. With this decision the two- and for strokes will be much more competitve

FIM Europe will continue also in 2018 and in the years to come to accept 2-stroke as well as 4-stroke engines in the successful 250cc class.

Eddie Herd, Chairman of the European Motocross Commission: “It is clear that we will go on with the concept of parity. Riders and teams will have the possibility to choose between 2-strokes and 4-strokes.”

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We have an interview with FIM’s Tony Skillington, the CMS Director, today about the changes and the possible changes for the world motocross championships in the future, not only for two strokes and 4-strokes, but also the possability of the electric motocross bikes being eventually involved

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9/12/2017 4:13 AM

Tony Skillington interview – Parity


We talk to FIM’s Tony Skillington, the CMS Director, today about the changes in the Dutch Masters of Motocross (where they allow 2-strokes to race the 4-strokes), and the possible changes for the world motocross championships in the future, not only for two strokes and 4-strokes, but also the possibility of the electric motocross bikes being eventually involved.

Motocross is in a very brittle state at the moment, with the environmentalists pushing to have motocross tracks closed, and national parks off limits to motorcycles. It’s been something that has been talked about for decades, and with the electric motorcycles becoming more and more advanced, this is also something that might be implemented in the highest level of the sport sooner, rather than later.

MXLarge: There is always the two strokes versus four stroke debate. Is the sport in a good place with four strokes? Old school people like the two strokes, the four strokes are expensive, two strokes are cheaper, and now we hear in 2018, in the Dutch Masters of Motocross they will be having the two strokes against the four strokes. Can you tell me a little bit about this?

Skillington: From what I can understand Geoff, what they are going to do is, for instance in the 250 class, you have the option of racing the 250 4-stroke or the 250 2-strokes in the same race. From that point of view, it gives people an option, to test the latest technology and I am thinking KTM or Husqvarna, where you have the fuel injected 250 2-stroke available. From all reports, from this new generation 250 2-stroke are very impressive and very positive, and I am sure some teams, will be thinking this is an option at National level, without a huge commitment on a 250 4-stroke.

MXlarge: Obviously the Dutch championship (along with the Italian championship) is the premier national championship, so it’s a great place to test the waters, with strong fields.

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Skillington: Yes, I would consider one of the top four in Europe at the moment and a good testing ground for the latest generation of 250 fuel injected 2-strokes.

MXlarge: Obviously the EMX is a class with a lot of riders, and there are also 2-strokes involved. Firstly, how important is the EMX for riders when first starting up.

Skillington: I know Geoff, everyone fully understands the costs of making a 250 4-stroke competitive. The amount of money that needs to be spent to make it competitive is hugely expensive and there are many teams who do not have the funds, or the experience to make a 250 4-stroke competitive at the highest levels. While the 250 2-stroke is a simply machine, where as a father, uncle or the riders can actually work on it themselves, and they can come in with an amount of funding, with this 250 2-stroke and get a measure if this is the future for them.

MXlarge: Could there be the situation where the 250 2-stroke, the fuel injected bike, will be too good for the 4-strokes and that could bring in some confusion as to where this situation stands?

Skillington: Right now, we don’t know, but my thought process is with the latest 250 2-strokes (KTM and Husqvarna), and we haven’t seen this bike on the start gate, all I can say is the power delivery is smooth and strong and it would be interesting to see how this bike performances against the 4-strokes.

MXlarge: There is always the argument that we should go back to the 2-strokes, just 2-strokes in every level.

Skillington: To be honest, it’s hard to go back to the future and we are in the generation of the 4-stroke engines. We are also in the age where the factory 4-strokes needs a lot of money spent on it, at the highest level. I think for the average privateer team, it isn’t possible to run a 250 4-stroke factory bike, while the 2-stroke, you have the chance to have the finance to do that.

MXlarge: So, if it works in the Dutch Masters of Motocross, and it’s a success and there isn’t too much advantage from one or the other. Could we see the FIM change the rules and let both bikes race together in the Grand Prix?

Skillington: Ok, let’s look at the options for both of those bikes. As announced last year, it is possible to run the 250 2-stroke against the 250 4-stroke in the EMX class, so again, it’s about waiting to see how these new generation of 2-strokes (KTM and Husqvarna) perform. We don’t know what the other manufactures are working on in Japan. The FIM don’t know, nobody really knows. We keep an open mind and then we make a decision. I would never rule anything out, only something in, and we will be ready willing to be open minded about this.

MXLarge: What about the electric bikes, they seem to be developing quickly?

Skillington: Ok, we have been approached by a company in the USA, Alta Motors, who want to present the bike to us and speaking to our colleges at the AMA, they have also been in discussion with them about the electric bikes. To be honest, I think if we consider it, if there is enough interest, I think we need to implement the bike as a separate series, a little like the Honda 150 series. I don’t want to start creating confusion that somebody can compete on an electric bike in MX2 or MXGP, that is a long way down the road. I think it depends on the interest, and it has to be considered by FIM Europe, but we are a long way off.

MXlarge: It does seem like the future or not?

Skillington: I would agree. If you see the outrage of the internal combustion engine within Europe currently, alternative technology need to be looked at. There is another discipline out there, which is in no man’s land at the moment, is the electric mountain bike. From what we understand the international cycling federation are not interested in this, but this could be another leaf in the book of the FIM to have this machine facilitated

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9/12/2017 4:22 AM

Interesting. KTM 350sx/380sx coming soon? That would be great.

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"Sorry Goose, but it's time to buzz the tower."

9/12/2017 5:27 AM

Cool

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9/12/2017 5:45 AM

The dam is starting to break.

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/12/2017 6:32 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/12/2017 7:16 AM

This is a pretty big deal and doesn't have the "Canadian Citizen", or "no motor work" specifications that they tried in Canada.
Hmmm, I wonder if a manufacturer will release a 450cc two stroke?

Some interesting quotes:
Jeffrey Herlings, (2016 MX1 World Champion), “….. good decision to even up the cc for two and four strokes”
Rinze Bremmer (Dutch Federation), “ …..keep the sport affordable”
Eddie Herd (European Motocross Commission), “ ….. team will choose between 2-strokes and 4-strokes”
Skillington ". .........the 250 2-stroke is a simple machine"
MX Large " . ......we should go back to the 2-strokes, just 2-strokes in every level"

Now, in my opinion, they just need to go back to racing 125cc and 250cc, keep the 450cc for us old guys, but gradually faze them out. I think the AMA already supports equal displacement racing, except MX Sports keeps a ridiculous and severly outdated Supplemental Rule in Pro Racing called, "Double-Displacement".

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9/12/2017 8:47 AM

One more interesting quote:

Skillington: "Ok, we have been approached by a company in the USA, Alta Motors, who want to present the bike to us and speaking to our colleges at the AMA, they have also been in discussion with them about the electric bikes. "

"If you see the outrage of the internal combustion engine within Europe currently, alternative technology need to be looked at."

So if the powers in charge move at about the same rate they are moving on letting 2 strokes out of jail, over 30 years, we could see Alta's on the track by 2047 if we're still alive. wassat

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/12/2017 8:56 AM

Various David Pingree, Steve Matthes, and Jason Thomas quotes during PULPMXSHOW podcasts that often get deleted:

• “To keep this sport thriving, we have to find more affordable ways to get people into the sport”
• “You think it’s a good idea for a kid to go from an 80cc to the 250F?”
• “125’s and 250F’s are close in everything but affordability”
• “Cannot learn the fundamentals of motocross on a 250F”
• “Dudes are getting hurt bad” “That bike, (125cc two stroke), needs to be around”
• “Not nearly talented enough to be jumping the stuff he’s jumping”
• “Must be able carry momentum” . . .... referring to riding a 125cc two-stroke
• “I never would have been in the sport”
• “Ricky Carmichael’s parents, James Stewarts parents, if the bikes would have cost
eight grand, they never would have been in the sport”
• “Ever since they went to 4 stroke, it’s always felt a little big, a little tall, holding on for dear life”
• “Literally bulge a disk putting the thing on a stand”

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9/12/2017 9:00 AM

It's exactly what we NEED here.

Why is it that the manufactures are ok with it in other countries , but here in the states they say " no way "?

I seriously don't fucking get it , and one day I really hope we get to find out who / what is responsible for all of it.

News flash America......get on the fucking ball! angry

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

9/12/2017 9:53 AM

Simply put - the manufacturers should have far less 'control' over things. It's like the Fox being in control of the Hen House.

4strokes ceased needing the 2x and 1.75x capacity advantage a decade and a half ago. They ain't bloody XRs , Tts, DRs and KLXs.

Equivalency in racing has not resulted in 2_stroke dominance in any fair ruled series.

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9/12/2017 10:03 AM

I don't really care who can ride an open bike the fastest. What I care about is who is the fastest, whatever bike he chooses. Please change from size of motor, to rider badassness. I want to see speed and talent, not who gets along with a certain sized motor the best! Premier, and support class. Open motors in both. who's really gonna ride a 100cc, or 1000cc? No one.

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9/12/2017 10:11 AM

loftyair wrote:

I don't really care who can ride an open bike the fastest. What I care about is who is the fastest, whatever bike he chooses. Please change from size of motor, to rider badassness. I want to see speed and talent, not who gets along with a certain sized motor the best! Premier, and support class. Open motors in both. who's really gonna ride a 100cc, or 1000cc? No one.

My brother from another mother!

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/12/2017 10:45 AM

jeffro503 wrote:

It's exactly what we NEED here.

Why is it that the manufactures are ok with it in other countries , but here in the states they say " no way "?

I seriously don't fucking get it , and one day I really hope we get to find out who / what is responsible for all of it.

News flash America......get on the fucking ball! angry

To be honest i dont think the manufacturers have any involvement in the dutch nationals or the decision on this topic. The factory riders need races for practice and go what suits their practice schedule best, that is why they race in the dutch nationals.

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9/12/2017 10:58 AM

jeffro503 wrote:

It's exactly what we NEED here.

Why is it that the manufactures are ok with it in other countries , but here in the states they say " no way "?

I seriously don't fucking get it , and one day I really hope we get to find out who / what is responsible for all of it.

News flash America......get on the fucking ball! angry

you do have it there, in every class up to the pro level,

people dont get into the sport at ama national level,

and the dutch are over 10 years behind the kiwi's, we changed to this rule in 2007,

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9/12/2017 11:42 AM

jeffro503 wrote:

It's exactly what we NEED here.

Why is it that the manufactures are ok with it in other countries , but here in the states they say " no way "?

I seriously don't fucking get it , and one day I really hope we get to find out who / what is responsible for all of it.

News flash America......get on the fucking ball! angry

scott_nz wrote:

you do have it there, in every class up to the pro level,

people dont get into the sport at ama national level,

and the dutch are over 10 years behind the kiwi's, we changed to this rule in 2007,

I agree with this ^^^

But just to pass along the "theory" as I recall it being explained by Jason Weigandt...

Honda is spending extremely large sums of money to field SX and MX teams in the AMA series'. These series run in a country of about 325 million people where dirt bikes are fairly popular.

If the AMA said "Hey Honda, we know you guys are spending a fortune to race our series, and we know you guys don't make a 150 2-stroke anymore, but we're going to let them race against your 250F at the pro level". Now there's a risk, however slight, that Honda will get beat by a 150 2-stoke on one of the greatest stages for MX/SX. That would be a serious marketing debacle.

Honda would not be happy. Suppose Honda retaliated by pulling out of the series? Suppose Suzuki and Kawasaki did the same? I think therein lies the fear. Professional racing in the USA is successful in part thanks to the participation of factory teams like Honda.

How much does Honda invest in the Dutch Masters series? What happens if a 2-stroke beats the Honda in that series? In a country of 6.5 million? Will it hurt Honda's worldwide sales numbers? Does Honda care?

This is why the AMA 500 class is often used as an example. Suzuki quit building a 500 and with Yamaha not investing in their 490, the series turned into a Honda vs Kawasaki affair. That meant if you were a sponsored Suzuki rider, you didn't race. So you had fewer "stars of the sport" lining up to race. Than meant you had fewer people showing up to watch. Eventually the series died.

It's important to have all the major factories happily involved in your series, if it is to remain a strong and relevant series.

Anyway, that's the rationale I think I heard Jason Weigandt explain. Whether or not it has legs is up for debate I suppose.

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9/12/2017 12:51 PM

That protectionist manufacturer theory didn't work out so well for the AMA and Harley Davidson in flat track.

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/12/2017 1:18 PM

jeffro503 wrote:

It's exactly what we NEED here.

Why is it that the manufactures are ok with it in other countries , but here in the states they say " no way "?

I seriously don't fucking get it , and one day I really hope we get to find out who / what is responsible for all of it.

News flash America......get on the fucking ball! angry

scott_nz wrote:

you do have it there, in every class up to the pro level,

people dont get into the sport at ama national level,

and the dutch are over 10 years behind the kiwi's, we changed to this rule in 2007,

mx_563 wrote:

I agree with this ^^^

But just to pass along the "theory" as I recall it being explained by Jason Weigandt...

Honda is spending extremely large sums of money to field SX and MX teams in the AMA series'. These series run in a country of about 325 million people where dirt bikes are fairly popular.

If the AMA said "Hey Honda, we know you guys are spending a fortune to race our series, and we know you guys don't make a 150 2-stroke anymore, but we're going to let them race against your 250F at the pro level". Now there's a risk, however slight, that Honda will get beat by a 150 2-stoke on one of the greatest stages for MX/SX. That would be a serious marketing debacle.

Honda would not be happy. Suppose Honda retaliated by pulling out of the series? Suppose Suzuki and Kawasaki did the same? I think therein lies the fear. Professional racing in the USA is successful in part thanks to the participation of factory teams like Honda.

How much does Honda invest in the Dutch Masters series? What happens if a 2-stroke beats the Honda in that series? In a country of 6.5 million? Will it hurt Honda's worldwide sales numbers? Does Honda care?

This is why the AMA 500 class is often used as an example. Suzuki quit building a 500 and with Yamaha not investing in their 490, the series turned into a Honda vs Kawasaki affair. That meant if you were a sponsored Suzuki rider, you didn't race. So you had fewer "stars of the sport" lining up to race. Than meant you had fewer people showing up to watch. Eventually the series died.

It's important to have all the major factories happily involved in your series, if it is to remain a strong and relevant series.

Anyway, that's the rationale I think I heard Jason Weigandt explain. Whether or not it has legs is up for debate I suppose.

I get what you're saying with the retaliation with manufacturers that do not offer the 250 two strokes etc. But are there going to be that many privateers that start running the two stroke to the point where it'll affect the sales of Honda, Kawi etc?? I seriously doubt it, let the guys that can barely afford to get there ride the dang two stroke for a year or two and see what happens. If they start spanking the top guys then change the rules back, what will it hurt.

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9/12/2017 1:24 PM

mx_563 wrote:

I agree with this ^^^

But just to pass along the "theory" as I recall it being explained by Jason Weigandt...

Honda is spending extremely large sums of money to field SX and MX teams in the AMA series'. These series run in a country of about 325 million people where dirt bikes are fairly popular.

If the AMA said "Hey Honda, we know you guys are spending a fortune to race our series, and we know you guys don't make a 150 2-stroke anymore, but we're going to let them race against your 250F at the pro level". Now there's a risk, however slight, that Honda will get beat by a 150 2-stoke on one of the greatest stages for MX/SX. That would be a serious marketing debacle.

Honda would not be happy. Suppose Honda retaliated by pulling out of the series? Suppose Suzuki and Kawasaki did the same? I think therein lies the fear. Professional racing in the USA is successful in part thanks to the participation of factory teams like Honda.

How much does Honda invest in the Dutch Masters series? What happens if a 2-stroke beats the Honda in that series? In a country of 6.5 million? Will it hurt Honda's worldwide sales numbers? Does Honda care?

This is why the AMA 500 class is often used as an example. Suzuki quit building a 500 and with Yamaha not investing in their 490, the series turned into a Honda vs Kawasaki affair. That meant if you were a sponsored Suzuki rider, you didn't race. So you had fewer "stars of the sport" lining up to race. Than meant you had fewer people showing up to watch. Eventually the series died.

It's important to have all the major factories happily involved in your series, if it is to remain a strong and relevant series.

Anyway, that's the rationale I think I heard Jason Weigandt explain. Whether or not it has legs is up for debate I suppose.

I agree with just about everything Jason says there, that's the way it is and why there's no change. What needs to change is the fear of what Honda, Suzuki or kawi might do and make them fear what we might do if they were to pull all support. We've got more power over them in the form of what bikes we buy and support. If Honda pulled all their support and the US riders stopped buying their brand, I bet they would change their attitude very quickly. Don't you think Honda would be announcing some new 2 stroke models shorty after sales plummet or are we not capable of joining together for the cause?

Also if we stop buying Honda we may miss their support for a while but I think the other brands support could rise from all the Honda supporters taking their money elsewhere.

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9/12/2017 1:34 PM

jeffro503 wrote:

It's exactly what we NEED here.

Why is it that the manufactures are ok with it in other countries , but here in the states they say " no way "?

I seriously don't fucking get it , and one day I really hope we get to find out who / what is responsible for all of it.

News flash America......get on the fucking ball! angry

scott_nz wrote:

you do have it there, in every class up to the pro level,

people dont get into the sport at ama national level,

and the dutch are over 10 years behind the kiwi's, we changed to this rule in 2007,

mx_563 wrote:

I agree with this ^^^

But just to pass along the "theory" as I recall it being explained by Jason Weigandt...

Honda is spending extremely large sums of money to field SX and MX teams in the AMA series'. These series run in a country of about 325 million people where dirt bikes are fairly popular.

If the AMA said "Hey Honda, we know you guys are spending a fortune to race our series, and we know you guys don't make a 150 2-stroke anymore, but we're going to let them race against your 250F at the pro level". Now there's a risk, however slight, that Honda will get beat by a 150 2-stoke on one of the greatest stages for MX/SX. That would be a serious marketing debacle.

Honda would not be happy. Suppose Honda retaliated by pulling out of the series? Suppose Suzuki and Kawasaki did the same? I think therein lies the fear. Professional racing in the USA is successful in part thanks to the participation of factory teams like Honda.

How much does Honda invest in the Dutch Masters series? What happens if a 2-stroke beats the Honda in that series? In a country of 6.5 million? Will it hurt Honda's worldwide sales numbers? Does Honda care?

This is why the AMA 500 class is often used as an example. Suzuki quit building a 500 and with Yamaha not investing in their 490, the series turned into a Honda vs Kawasaki affair. That meant if you were a sponsored Suzuki rider, you didn't race. So you had fewer "stars of the sport" lining up to race. Than meant you had fewer people showing up to watch. Eventually the series died.

It's important to have all the major factories happily involved in your series, if it is to remain a strong and relevant series.

Anyway, that's the rationale I think I heard Jason Weigandt explain. Whether or not it has legs is up for debate I suppose.

So the fear is that a factory like Honda doenst like it and quits.

Let's say Honda quits SX and outdoors with a factory team.
How is Honda going to promote sales of MX bikes in the US?
Send Roczen to the GP's? Or sponsor the NFL? Not sure how that is going to increase sales of mx bikes in the USA.

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9/12/2017 2:29 PM

jeffro503 wrote:

It's exactly what we NEED here.

Why is it that the manufactures are ok with it in other countries , but here in the states they say " no way "?

I seriously don't fucking get it , and one day I really hope we get to find out who / what is responsible for all of it.

News flash America......get on the fucking ball! angry

scott_nz wrote:

you do have it there, in every class up to the pro level,

people dont get into the sport at ama national level,

and the dutch are over 10 years behind the kiwi's, we changed to this rule in 2007,

Yeah I know that Scott.....but I'm talking about professional Mx and sx.

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

9/12/2017 2:44 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/12/2017 2:44 PM

The funny part about the argument, is that even if 2t's and Electric's are allowed in AMA pro racing (MX Sports) they still have to be competitive. They will not get a free pass to the main events, they will have to race their way in. It may be years before they even get a podium. It's the principle of the matter more than the results of the races.

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/13/2017 7:08 AM

Bramlett321 wrote:

I get what you're saying with the retaliation with manufacturers that do not offer the 250 two strokes etc. But are there going to be that many privateers that start running the two stroke to the point where it'll affect the sales of Honda, Kawi etc?? I seriously doubt it, let the guys that can barely afford to get there ride the dang two stroke for a year or two and see what happens. If they start spanking the top guys then change the rules back, what will it hurt.

I'm just repeating what I heard. I think the fear isn't that a privateer will do it, but that a KTM might put one of it's orange brigade riders on a factory prepped 150. Also, if you start to see a bunch of them out there, then questions arise as to why Honda (for example) doesn't have one. This can also have a negative consequences on their image. I'm not stating any of this as fact, it's just the argument that I've been hearing over and over again.

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9/13/2017 7:13 AM

MohMoto14 wrote:

I agree with just about everything Jason says there, that's the way it is and why there's no change. What needs to change is the fear of what Honda, Suzuki or kawi might do and make them fear what we might do if they were to pull all support. We've got more power over them in the form of what bikes we buy and support. If Honda pulled all their support and the US riders stopped buying their brand, I bet they would change their attitude very quickly. Don't you think Honda would be announcing some new 2 stroke models shorty after sales plummet or are we not capable of joining together for the cause?

Also if we stop buying Honda we may miss their support for a while but I think the other brands support could rise from all the Honda supporters taking their money elsewhere.

You might be right. I don't know.

On a side note, when Honda quit building 2-strokes, they made it a point to say that their company philosophy was to move away from that "technology" so for them to come back would be a huge. And when you factor in Japanese culture, it makes such an about-face even more unlikely. In contrast, Kawasaki and Suzuki just quit selling them without any sort of claims or announcements. So it might be easier for one of those guys to come back.

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9/13/2017 7:23 AM

roninho wrote:

So the fear is that a factory like Honda doenst like it and quits.

Let's say Honda quits SX and outdoors with a factory team.
How is Honda going to promote sales of MX bikes in the US?
Send Roczen to the GP's? Or sponsor the NFL? Not sure how that is going to increase sales of mx bikes in the USA.

Yeah, I don't know. Supposedly dirt bike sales are almost negligible in Honda's overall portfolio. Perhaps they would rather pull out on their own, than be "shamed" by the "antiquated" technology of a 2-stroke. That's just speculation on my part, I don't know this for a fact.

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9/13/2017 8:48 AM

Johnny Depp wrote:

The funny part about the argument, is that even if 2t's and Electric's are allowed in AMA pro racing (MX Sports) they still have to be competitive. They will not get a free pass to the main events, they will have to race their way in. It may be years before they even get a podium. It's the principle of the matter more than the results of the races.

Electric bikes yes it may take a few years, 2 strokes with even displacements and no limits I respectfully disagree. it Didn't take Yamaha very long to find the podium when fourstrokes came out. it didn't take any of the others long to follow suit and put one out too. They had some growing pains but not much and they figured it out quick. There's a reason Canada changed their rules to limit modifications to 2 strokes, I can't imagine it being any other reason than they were to competitive.(won the lites championship)

It won't be like with the 4 strokes where your starting from scratch and have very little idea of what works. Honda and any other brand could put one out in a year, maybe a little over, and be competitive.(suzuki & kawi unite!) Lol Not to mention 2 strokes are much cheaper to create in the motor department and their current 250f frames wouldn't seem to me to need much tweaking to happily accept a 250 2 smoke engine. (That they're building to fit said frame)

If they allow equal displacement you really think it would take ktm years to put one on the box? I would say first year if a normal podium worthy guy rides one, 2nd year I have no doubt. They will have to race their way in? Have you even heard of stank dog? Lol Didn't Marshal or someone score points in the 450's last year mixing gas and while working a 9-5? Thats with half the displacement!

I would rather see both classes displacement be trimmed down about 100cc. Slow riders down, slow the tracks down, less injuries and better racing. Braap

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9/13/2017 9:23 AM

mx_563 wrote:

You might be right. I don't know.

On a side note, when Honda quit building 2-strokes, they made it a point to say that their company philosophy was to move away from that "technology" so for them to come back would be a huge. And when you factor in Japanese culture, it makes such an about-face even more unlikely. In contrast, Kawasaki and Suzuki just quit selling them without any sort of claims or announcements. So it might be easier for one of those guys to come back.

I must say you are quite right about that. Honda would have to eat some Crow and the Japanese certainly can be stubborn, they surely wouldn't like it. They also don't like losing either and have been known to throw everything they've got into a making the best available. Maybe a few build competitive 2 strokes along with their 4 St and Honda sticks with just the 4? Would be nice to find a balance where they are even, both having their pros and cons but they equal out. It will be extremely hard to find that balance where you have riders choosing to ride what suits them best. I'm not for 2strokes taking over and thumpers disappearing, ive had many of both and loved everyone of them. I am a bit partial to the smokers I grew up on and they're my only reasonable option to ride and race weekly. I would imagine it would also help out some broke local kids with some talent be competitive nationally and I'm all for that.

I'm not here saying I'm right or anyone is wrong, that any of it would work for sure or it would go this way or that. I would just love to see it be attempted. Just wanted to clear that up.lol

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9/13/2017 10:02 AM

MohMoto14 stated,” Would be nice to find a balance where they are even, both having their pros and cons but they equal out”

I mailed details of the Pirelli World Challenge “Balance of Performance” to both MX Sports and Rob Dingman at the AMA. If reducing 4 stroke displacement isn’t going to happen, whoever is keeping the "Double-Displace Debacle" in place should at least do something in Professional Racing to keep 125cc and 250cc 2 strokes relevant. In the Pirelli World Challenge, cars like the Audi R8, BMW M6, Dodge Viper, Nissan GT-R, Porsche 911, McLaren 650S, specific cars add weight or reduce top RPM weekly to keep equipment and racing fair. It’s called the “Balance of Performance” initiative, BoP. Why couldn’t MX Sports do a reboot and make 4 strokes add weight? I’m not suggesting adding weight or reducing RPM max between equal displacement manufacturers, but rather use BoP to equal out 2 stroke/ 4 stroke performance. It would fix the problem REAL QUICK.

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9/14/2017 10:16 AM

So would restrictor plates.

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

9/14/2017 12:13 PM

I think the BoP may work in well funded organized car racing, but for the average joe that wants to race either 4t or 2t I don't think that would be appealing to manage that.

For racing to grow we need to lower the cost barrier. Maybe electric could do that long term, but for now it's 2t.

I don't much care what Honda will or won't do. My bet is they will dust off the 2T technology and return the 4T to trail bikes where they belong if became advantageous.

I wonder how much $ Yamaha and KTM/Husky need to take in market share before they pay attention.

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9/14/2017 12:55 PM

Well in my opinion cost will be the only reason to grab a 250 2 stroke in mx2, Mike Kras rode the 250 2 stroke at the Valkenswaard emx250 grand prix and he just could not keep up with 250f's on the exit of the turns and on the straights against the 250f's and it was not due to lack of ability.
The 250f's just really hook up and are fast these days like in the pre 2010 era it would've been a good choice to hop on a 250 2 stroke...

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