PED's?

robkinuk
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robkinuk 12/23/2012 6:19pm
12/23/2012 6:19pm
Lot of over the counter cold remedies contain banned ingredients. Amazing how many people use astmha inhalers to open up their airways! Totally banned unless you have doctors script. Caffine is banned in heavy doses so chugging down a couple of cans of Monster/Red Bull would have you positive.

Big question is who would pay to implement drug tests?
Brave of Jeff to break ranks and speak out, but sadly he will probably be blackballed by his fellow pro's
Nighttrain
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Nighttrain 12/23/2012 6:28pm
12/23/2012 6:28pm
The bigger issue effecting most posting here is when the Vet racer on the gate next to you at the local MX or HS is on a physician led Male Hormone Replacement Therapy (testosterone) program. if your skills are close, you will lose big if you're not on a program.



Want to know how to make a hormone?.......don't pay her.
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bvm111 12/23/2012 6:34pm
12/23/2012 6:34pm Edited Date/Time 12/24/2012 2:01pm
flarider wrote:
But my point is, the definition in this sport is likely broader than things like EPO, blood doping and the like. The needs in MX is...
But my point is, the definition in this sport is likely broader than things like EPO, blood doping and the like.
The needs in MX is different than the needs in cycling. MX/SX is essentially high intensity short term energy bursts compared to multiple days of hours and hours of intensity.

Again, go back to the IV...that's legal in cycling and a normal part of the post race routine, but in MX/SX it's illegal.

So using cycling as a basis of what is or isn't PED use isn't exactly fair or accurate
Choppy wrote:
I thought the FIM defined that?
flarider wrote:
Did the FIM make saline IV's illegal first or did the AMA?

and how do you test for it's usage?
I am pretty sure justin lichtle would be a lot happier today if saline IV were not deemed "illegal" i between motos.... IV is not PED... but a life saving protocol when a person is dangerously close to heat exhaustion!
BigMX
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BigMX 12/23/2012 7:53pm
12/23/2012 7:53pm
Choppy wrote:
I thought the FIM defined that?
flarider wrote:
Did the FIM make saline IV's illegal first or did the AMA?

and how do you test for it's usage?
bvm111 wrote:
I am pretty sure justin lichtle would be a lot happier today if saline IV were not deemed "illegal" i between motos.... IV is not PED...
I am pretty sure justin lichtle would be a lot happier today if saline IV were not deemed "illegal" i between motos.... IV is not PED... but a life saving protocol when a person is dangerously close to heat exhaustion!
I'm pretty sure Josh passed away from overheating in the first moto. While IV's between motos is probably a good idea, it would not have changed the outcome in this case.

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JMH
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JMH 12/23/2012 8:57pm
12/23/2012 8:57pm
. Jeff's post caught my attention so I decided to speak up. I have been Mike's trainer for years . I'm well educated on training. Its what I do for a living, I've have had clients from everywalk of life. So I know what I'm talking about.. Before you can disscuss PED's in MX you have to understand the make-up of the training and the racing schedule. I get a laugh when I see these "How to train for MX" postings and such. There is no specific way you train for it. All of the top riders have their own very different programs. MA's is going to be totally different from RD's, RV's may have nothing in common with JS program, and so on. A very successfull program yeilds consistant or improving results. That program has to have just the right amount of everything all year long, recovery included. If PED's are being used this is where they would most likely come into play, speeding up recovery.

Next you have to define what is a PED. If your suffering from allergies and take an over the counter drug to stop sneezing before an event you've used a PED. Now are you cheating? If a blood test shows you have a low Iron level and a doctor prescribes a supplement or administers an Iron IV, are you cheating? The list could go on forever. So until a specific list of specific items and conditions comes into play its very hard to say whats what.

Im sure there are those out there that have tried different things to get an edge but I've never seen it. The argument of he's faster because he took a "Streriod" just doesn't make any sense.
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Nighttrain 12/23/2012 9:52pm
12/23/2012 9:52pm
JMH wrote:
. Jeff's post caught my attention so I decided to speak up. I have been Mike's trainer for years . I'm well educated on training. Its...
. Jeff's post caught my attention so I decided to speak up. I have been Mike's trainer for years . I'm well educated on training. Its what I do for a living, I've have had clients from everywalk of life. So I know what I'm talking about.. Before you can disscuss PED's in MX you have to understand the make-up of the training and the racing schedule. I get a laugh when I see these "How to train for MX" postings and such. There is no specific way you train for it. All of the top riders have their own very different programs. MA's is going to be totally different from RD's, RV's may have nothing in common with JS program, and so on. A very successfull program yeilds consistant or improving results. That program has to have just the right amount of everything all year long, recovery included. If PED's are being used this is where they would most likely come into play, speeding up recovery.

Next you have to define what is a PED. If your suffering from allergies and take an over the counter drug to stop sneezing before an event you've used a PED. Now are you cheating? If a blood test shows you have a low Iron level and a doctor prescribes a supplement or administers an Iron IV, are you cheating? The list could go on forever. So until a specific list of specific items and conditions comes into play its very hard to say whats what.

Im sure there are those out there that have tried different things to get an edge but I've never seen it. The argument of he's faster because he took a "Streriod" just doesn't make any sense.
Oxygen vector manipulants to boost aerobic capacity and male hormone enhancement for recovery.
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bvm111 12/23/2012 10:33pm
12/23/2012 10:33pm
BigMX wrote:
I'm pretty sure Josh passed away from overheating in the first moto. While IV's between motos is probably a good idea, it would not have changed...
I'm pretty sure Josh passed away from overheating in the first moto. While IV's between motos is probably a good idea, it would not have changed the outcome in this case.
And I am pretty sure my main point was that Saline IV is not a PED, secondary to that is the fact it is "illegal" at AMA events, tertiary to that is that If josh or any rider that day would have been admisitered IV it wouldnt have affected the outcome of the race but more than likely no one would have passed away from heat stroke!
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GuyB 12/23/2012 10:42pm
12/23/2012 10:42pm
bvm111 wrote:
And I am pretty sure my main point was that Saline IV is not a PED, secondary to that is the fact it is "illegal" at...
And I am pretty sure my main point was that Saline IV is not a PED, secondary to that is the fact it is "illegal" at AMA events, tertiary to that is that If josh or any rider that day would have been admisitered IV it wouldnt have affected the outcome of the race but more than likely no one would have passed away from heat stroke!
It's also pretty much unenforceable without monitoring guys all day long.
Big
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Big 12/24/2012 12:13am
12/24/2012 12:13am
JMH wrote:
. Jeff's post caught my attention so I decided to speak up. I have been Mike's trainer for years . I'm well educated on training. Its...
. Jeff's post caught my attention so I decided to speak up. I have been Mike's trainer for years . I'm well educated on training. Its what I do for a living, I've have had clients from everywalk of life. So I know what I'm talking about.. Before you can disscuss PED's in MX you have to understand the make-up of the training and the racing schedule. I get a laugh when I see these "How to train for MX" postings and such. There is no specific way you train for it. All of the top riders have their own very different programs. MA's is going to be totally different from RD's, RV's may have nothing in common with JS program, and so on. A very successfull program yeilds consistant or improving results. That program has to have just the right amount of everything all year long, recovery included. If PED's are being used this is where they would most likely come into play, speeding up recovery.

Next you have to define what is a PED. If your suffering from allergies and take an over the counter drug to stop sneezing before an event you've used a PED. Now are you cheating? If a blood test shows you have a low Iron level and a doctor prescribes a supplement or administers an Iron IV, are you cheating? The list could go on forever. So until a specific list of specific items and conditions comes into play its very hard to say whats what.

Im sure there are those out there that have tried different things to get an edge but I've never seen it. The argument of he's faster because he took a "Streriod" just doesn't make any sense.
If you suffered from constant fatigue and low ironlevel, also getting sick due too extreme hard training. Just taking a little shot once and awhile? Is that really cheating? It's only to feel fresh and get levels back so you don't becoming sick. That means you can train harder as well and by the way the muscles feels better and growing twice as fast. Is that cheating really? It's only to be able to go faster in the end not to hurt anyone? Is that really cheating? Everybody does it in then it can't be cheating? JMH? if you are MAs trainer? Give me a brake will ya.......The argument that Armstrong won 7 tour de france because of ped,s just doesn't make any sense either? Oboy!
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Big 12/24/2012 12:18am
12/24/2012 12:18am
BigMX wrote:
I'm pretty sure Josh passed away from overheating in the first moto. While IV's between motos is probably a good idea, it would not have changed...
I'm pretty sure Josh passed away from overheating in the first moto. While IV's between motos is probably a good idea, it would not have changed the outcome in this case.
bvm111 wrote:
And I am pretty sure my main point was that Saline IV is not a PED, secondary to that is the fact it is "illegal" at...
And I am pretty sure my main point was that Saline IV is not a PED, secondary to that is the fact it is "illegal" at AMA events, tertiary to that is that If josh or any rider that day would have been admisitered IV it wouldnt have affected the outcome of the race but more than likely no one would have passed away from heat stroke!
Why not nutricion and liquid right in the vein together with i small dose of amfetamin to every tired rider? Good shit in N'am?
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jeffro503 12/24/2012 12:23am
12/24/2012 12:23am
JMH wrote:
. Jeff's post caught my attention so I decided to speak up. I have been Mike's trainer for years . I'm well educated on training. Its...
. Jeff's post caught my attention so I decided to speak up. I have been Mike's trainer for years . I'm well educated on training. Its what I do for a living, I've have had clients from everywalk of life. So I know what I'm talking about.. Before you can disscuss PED's in MX you have to understand the make-up of the training and the racing schedule. I get a laugh when I see these "How to train for MX" postings and such. There is no specific way you train for it. All of the top riders have their own very different programs. MA's is going to be totally different from RD's, RV's may have nothing in common with JS program, and so on. A very successfull program yeilds consistant or improving results. That program has to have just the right amount of everything all year long, recovery included. If PED's are being used this is where they would most likely come into play, speeding up recovery.

Next you have to define what is a PED. If your suffering from allergies and take an over the counter drug to stop sneezing before an event you've used a PED. Now are you cheating? If a blood test shows you have a low Iron level and a doctor prescribes a supplement or administers an Iron IV, are you cheating? The list could go on forever. So until a specific list of specific items and conditions comes into play its very hard to say whats what.

Im sure there are those out there that have tried different things to get an edge but I've never seen it. The argument of he's faster because he took a "Streriod" just doesn't make any sense.
Nighttrain wrote:
Oxygen vector manipulants to boost aerobic capacity and male hormone enhancement for recovery.
Our boys run 15min mains in SX....and 30min+2 laps outside. A well conditioned athlete doesn't need any of that. I'm in my off season right now....but come spring time hits and about 6-8 weeks before I start riding again , I'll start my cycling and so forth. I have been able to push my limits to about 90-95% MHR for an hour.....and I'm 45yrs old. I work for a living and ride and train for fun.

Now if I was 25yrs younger , getting paid big bucks , got to ride and train everyday........30min +2 laps isn't that far out of the question is it?

Our boys in MX have a combination of both great cardio and great "riding" strength.........but are they Lance Armstrong in the cardio dept.....or as strong as a college wrestler........of course not.

BTW.....Thank you JMH for chiming in!
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JackLHyde 12/24/2012 1:04am
12/24/2012 1:04am
GuyB wrote:
It's also pretty much unenforceable without monitoring guys all day long.
That's the backside of that ban, how does the AMA monitor and/or test it? I don't even wanna know what's going on in the motorhomes, or even worse back in the pits.
Matter of fact, if you want to use PEDs in MX, you can do it without having much fear to being caught. First noone will tell and second the testing is miserable. Even over here I've been offered stuff when I was racing.
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wow123 12/24/2012 3:40am
12/24/2012 3:40am
JMH wrote:
. Jeff's post caught my attention so I decided to speak up. I have been Mike's trainer for years . I'm well educated on training. Its...
. Jeff's post caught my attention so I decided to speak up. I have been Mike's trainer for years . I'm well educated on training. Its what I do for a living, I've have had clients from everywalk of life. So I know what I'm talking about.. Before you can disscuss PED's in MX you have to understand the make-up of the training and the racing schedule. I get a laugh when I see these "How to train for MX" postings and such. There is no specific way you train for it. All of the top riders have their own very different programs. MA's is going to be totally different from RD's, RV's may have nothing in common with JS program, and so on. A very successfull program yeilds consistant or improving results. That program has to have just the right amount of everything all year long, recovery included. If PED's are being used this is where they would most likely come into play, speeding up recovery.

Next you have to define what is a PED. If your suffering from allergies and take an over the counter drug to stop sneezing before an event you've used a PED. Now are you cheating? If a blood test shows you have a low Iron level and a doctor prescribes a supplement or administers an Iron IV, are you cheating? The list could go on forever. So until a specific list of specific items and conditions comes into play its very hard to say whats what.

Im sure there are those out there that have tried different things to get an edge but I've never seen it. The argument of he's faster because he took a "Streriod" just doesn't make any sense.
A list of the top 10 and their effects so to speak, would be a good starting point.

As even though you dont subscribe to the use, you might know whats available.

We could then debate which ones are being used.

Seems Reed and J Alessi are talking about it at the moment.
689
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689 12/24/2012 4:07am
12/24/2012 4:07am
What about drugs that improve reflexes and cognitive function? I just recently was prescribed Provigil and unfortunate don't think my laps times have reduced significantly :p. Was just reading that Benzedrine, Adderall, and Dexedrine (Amphetamines) do this, and also make an individual more likely to take risks (which I think would benefit some riders)
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motokiwi 12/24/2012 5:18am
12/24/2012 5:18am
689 wrote:
What about drugs that improve reflexes and cognitive function? I just recently was prescribed Provigil and unfortunate don't think my laps times have reduced significantly :p...
What about drugs that improve reflexes and cognitive function? I just recently was prescribed Provigil and unfortunate don't think my laps times have reduced significantly :p. Was just reading that Benzedrine, Adderall, and Dexedrine (Amphetamines) do this, and also make an individual more likely to take risks (which I think would benefit some riders)
They call those "smart drugs" nootropics.

Some of those you mentioned would be ideal for helping with holeshots.
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dl117 12/24/2012 6:22am
12/24/2012 6:22am
UpTiTe wrote:
Yes its here and yes very fast guys take them just like average guys take them. Average recovery time for ACL for the average joe? Walking...
Yes its here and yes very fast guys take them just like average guys take them.

Average recovery time for ACL for the average joe? Walking and biking—12 weeks ,running—6 months.

Average recovery time for ACL for factory Joe? walking and biking— 2-3 weeks, running—2 months .


A factory rider recently had his knee done and was bycycling 1 week later, can you do that?

Two factory riders have missed the Supercross season because of severe knee injuries just to come back stronger and faster then pre injury and destryoed the comp, both used the same trainer.
when I had my acl done I was on in pedal bike in under 3 weeks, i could pedal better than I could walk........and I am no factory joe
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observer 12/24/2012 6:29am
12/24/2012 6:29am
I'm thinking in many cases, it's more a question of "what is a PED?"....
Some products marketed under "stamina enhancing", or "sustained energy"...could be seen as PEDs, or are they?, if they're comprised of "all natural ingredients". The line becomes reeeaal blurred there.
eropkin
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eropkin 12/24/2012 6:40am
12/24/2012 6:40am
So, No one is willing to admit what they use or have used in the past, Maybe nothing? But if one were to be using some form of PED which ones would be helpful for a motocross rider? Testosterone to help build some muscle? HGH to help with recovery? Blood doping to help with endurance? hmmm I just listed 3 PED's one for muscle, one for endurance, one for recovery. Is a National level rider really going to walk away from at least trying a PED? Someone knows the truth, Can't wait for that book to come out...

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fader418
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fader418 12/24/2012 7:10am
12/24/2012 7:10am
eropkin wrote:
So, No one is willing to admit what they use or have used in the past, Maybe nothing? But if one were to be using some...
So, No one is willing to admit what they use or have used in the past, Maybe nothing? But if one were to be using some form of PED which ones would be helpful for a motocross rider? Testosterone to help build some muscle? HGH to help with recovery? Blood doping to help with endurance? hmmm I just listed 3 PED's one for muscle, one for endurance, one for recovery. Is a National level rider really going to walk away from at least trying a PED? Someone knows the truth, Can't wait for that book to come out...
Never happen in this "secret sport". I bet this thread will be deleted by the end of the day. Hey Dave didn't you get 2nd place at Anaheim SX in 76?
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eropkin 12/24/2012 7:21am
12/24/2012 7:21am
Yes, and I took every PED ever made to do it.. You name it i took it... Now lets see who else admits it..
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eropkin 12/24/2012 7:27am
12/24/2012 7:27am Edited Date/Time 12/24/2012 7:44am
( kidding of course) I don't think anyone knew of PED's back then. The only drug i ever saw any top rider do back then was smoke pot..This rider I saw do this was one of my idols and i lost alot of respect for him when i saw this..But later I learned this was very common
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JackLHyde 12/24/2012 7:28am
12/24/2012 7:28am
eropkin wrote:
Yes, and I took every PED ever made to do it.. You name it i took it... Now lets see who else admits it..
There it goes!
You won't find many to call people out or even admit having doped. This industry is too tight-knit. For most involved it's the only thing they know. They've grown up and will work forever in this. One example: A guy like Ping could bring a lot to the table with his knowledge, but think of all the bridges he would burn! Can't blame him for protecting his friends and being loyal.
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bvm111 12/24/2012 10:07am
12/24/2012 10:07am
Big wrote:
Why not nutricion and liquid right in the vein together with i small dose of amfetamin to every tired rider? Good shit in N'am?
still good shit today!
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bvm111 12/24/2012 10:15am
12/24/2012 10:15am
bvm111 wrote:
And I am pretty sure my main point was that Saline IV is not a PED, secondary to that is the fact it is "illegal" at...
And I am pretty sure my main point was that Saline IV is not a PED, secondary to that is the fact it is "illegal" at AMA events, tertiary to that is that If josh or any rider that day would have been admisitered IV it wouldnt have affected the outcome of the race but more than likely no one would have passed away from heat stroke!
GuyB wrote:
It's also pretty much unenforceable without monitoring guys all day long.
Steve, no doubt that when certain riders have private busses and rigs a monkey can be trained to administer IV without being tracked but its pretty hard to cover up a 16g needle mark in the arm where you usualy recieve IV. That being said, generaly speaking AMA through Asriks medical could easily administer IV to all riders after practice, 1st, and second motos.

again my main point is that Saline Solution, or potasium (banana bag) is not a PED.... yet it is deemed illegal by AMA!
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GuyB 12/24/2012 10:34am
12/24/2012 10:34am
eropkin wrote:
So, No one is willing to admit what they use or have used in the past, Maybe nothing? But if one were to be using some...
So, No one is willing to admit what they use or have used in the past, Maybe nothing? But if one were to be using some form of PED which ones would be helpful for a motocross rider? Testosterone to help build some muscle? HGH to help with recovery? Blood doping to help with endurance? hmmm I just listed 3 PED's one for muscle, one for endurance, one for recovery. Is a National level rider really going to walk away from at least trying a PED? Someone knows the truth, Can't wait for that book to come out...
fader418 wrote:
Never happen in this "secret sport". I bet this thread will be deleted by the end of the day. Hey Dave didn't you get 2nd place...
Never happen in this "secret sport". I bet this thread will be deleted by the end of the day. Hey Dave didn't you get 2nd place at Anaheim SX in 76?
You bet wrong. As usual, there's a lot of misguided posters typing up a lot of misguided info.
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GuyB 12/24/2012 10:38am
12/24/2012 10:38am
bvm111 wrote:
And I am pretty sure my main point was that Saline IV is not a PED, secondary to that is the fact it is "illegal" at...
And I am pretty sure my main point was that Saline IV is not a PED, secondary to that is the fact it is "illegal" at AMA events, tertiary to that is that If josh or any rider that day would have been admisitered IV it wouldnt have affected the outcome of the race but more than likely no one would have passed away from heat stroke!
GuyB wrote:
It's also pretty much unenforceable without monitoring guys all day long.
bvm111 wrote:
Steve, no doubt that when certain riders have private busses and rigs a monkey can be trained to administer IV without being tracked but its pretty...
Steve, no doubt that when certain riders have private busses and rigs a monkey can be trained to administer IV without being tracked but its pretty hard to cover up a 16g needle mark in the arm where you usualy recieve IV. That being said, generaly speaking AMA through Asriks medical could easily administer IV to all riders after practice, 1st, and second motos.

again my main point is that Saline Solution, or potasium (banana bag) is not a PED.... yet it is deemed illegal by AMA!
80 riders, three times a day? It would be impractical at best, not to mention the cost.

From my experience of watching them in action, the Asterisk crew will help out people with legit symptoms of heat exhaustion/dehydration, but that's it.
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bents 12/24/2012 10:46am
12/24/2012 10:46am
Call me naive, but I don't see any of the current top guys using. Dungey? Fuck that would spin me for a loop! I would officially lose all hope in mankind! I just can't get there. And I can't see it from the RV camp with Aldon-too much to lose. Can't see it from Reed either. And James? I don't believe so. Unless someone can come on here with concrete evidence, I will assume everyone is innocent until proven guilty. That is how it is supposed to work, no?

If there is some "ham and egger" out there who dopes and doesn't do the required work, he is just a plain fuckin dope to begin with.
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robkinuk 12/24/2012 11:20am
12/24/2012 11:20am
eropkin wrote:
( kidding of course) I don't think anyone knew of PED's back then. The only drug i ever saw any top rider do back then was...
( kidding of course) I don't think anyone knew of PED's back then. The only drug i ever saw any top rider do back then was smoke pot..This rider I saw do this was one of my idols and i lost alot of respect for him when i saw this..But later I learned this was very common
So you are saying Gaylon Mosier smoked dope?

We all knew Steve Stackable smoked weed, even had marajuana logo on his helmet but Mosier???

My previous post on over the counter medicines, caffine etc come from my experience as an International Mountain Bike Commissaire, reposible for overseeing rules, drug tests at several UCI World Cup events.

Merry Christmas everyone.Tommorrow I will be main lining beer, turkey and brandy sauce . My location will be Eyam Derbyshire, England, if WADA want to know!WinkTongueLaughingLaughing
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Choppy 12/24/2012 12:56pm
12/24/2012 12:56pm
flarider wrote:
But my point is, the definition in this sport is likely broader than things like EPO, blood doping and the like. The needs in MX is...
But my point is, the definition in this sport is likely broader than things like EPO, blood doping and the like.
The needs in MX is different than the needs in cycling. MX/SX is essentially high intensity short term energy bursts compared to multiple days of hours and hours of intensity.

Again, go back to the IV...that's legal in cycling and a normal part of the post race routine, but in MX/SX it's illegal.

So using cycling as a basis of what is or isn't PED use isn't exactly fair or accurate
Choppy wrote:
I thought the FIM defined that?
flarider wrote:
Did the FIM make saline IV's illegal first or did the AMA?

and how do you test for it's usage?
If the AMA and or FIM say you can't do it you can't do it. I'm not sure why this is overly complicated.

Cheating on the other hand comes down to what the AMA/FIM can afford and the morals of the riders IMO.

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