Outdoor Points System

Nerd
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Edited Date/Time 6/5/2013 10:08am
From my Facebook and Twitter:

I've heard a couple people mention that they don't like the trend of guys pulling off if they're outside the top 20, because they don't get any points for 21st or 31st, so it doesn't matter. Instead of awarding points back to 40th (as many are saying they should), what if they started deducting points after 20th?

21st gets -1. 40th gets -20 or even -25. #hhhmmm
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S.Loyer
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6/2/2013 5:17pm Edited Date/Time 6/2/2013 5:18pm
This can't be serious....
500guy
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6/2/2013 5:20pm
I think they should let the riders race for free and charge the media to get in,
Outsider
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6/2/2013 5:20pm
Maybe if they pull off they should just be grounded with no TV or Xbox for a whole week...
6/2/2013 5:21pm Edited Date/Time 6/2/2013 5:22pm
So you want to make it harder for privateers to earn national points? Blink Ummmmm.

For a championship contender who finished outside the top 20, that is already a REALLY bad day points wise, why pour salt on the wound and take away points?

I'm not really sure what incentive your system would offer other than don't show up unless you know you can be in the top 20.

The Shop

500guy
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6/2/2013 5:30pm
I think there is some money incentive is there not ?

Whats the purse structure?
tobz
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6/2/2013 5:30pm
I don't agree with any of it, subtracting points, or awarding points down to 40th.

Don't like finishing 21st? Work harder and come back next week. It's a little brash, but it's a professional sport, not a "everyone who plays gets a prize!" sideshow.
Nerd
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6/2/2013 5:34pm
tobz wrote:
I don't agree with any of it, subtracting points, or awarding points down to 40th. Don't like finishing 21st? Work harder and come back next week...
I don't agree with any of it, subtracting points, or awarding points down to 40th.

Don't like finishing 21st? Work harder and come back next week. It's a little brash, but it's a professional sport, not a "everyone who plays gets a prize!" sideshow.
Your 2nd paragraph seems to contradict your first...
yosmithy
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6/2/2013 5:39pm
If a rider drops out early because he doesn't think he's going to finish in the points, then what's the problem? The top 20 would probably be happy to get rid of the back markers anyway.

Right?
Nerd
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6/2/2013 5:43pm
yosmithy wrote:
If a rider drops out early because he doesn't think he's going to finish in the points, then what's the problem? The top 20 would probably...
If a rider drops out early because he doesn't think he's going to finish in the points, then what's the problem? The top 20 would probably be happy to get rid of the back markers anyway.

Right?
If those guys were pushing for 30+2, they wouldn't be "in the way" nearly as much.

Lappers are a problem for the leader. It comes with being the leader. They're professionals. They sort it out.
tobz
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6/2/2013 5:44pm
tobz wrote:
I don't agree with any of it, subtracting points, or awarding points down to 40th. Don't like finishing 21st? Work harder and come back next week...
I don't agree with any of it, subtracting points, or awarding points down to 40th.

Don't like finishing 21st? Work harder and come back next week. It's a little brash, but it's a professional sport, not a "everyone who plays gets a prize!" sideshow.
Nerd wrote:
Your 2nd paragraph seems to contradict your first...
Thought you'd be smart enough to know that i was talking about the people that want points down to 40th position.

As if you'd take the "lets start subtracting points after 20th" cries seriously, anyway.
Nerd
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6/2/2013 5:51pm
tobz wrote:
I don't agree with any of it, subtracting points, or awarding points down to 40th. Don't like finishing 21st? Work harder and come back next week...
I don't agree with any of it, subtracting points, or awarding points down to 40th.

Don't like finishing 21st? Work harder and come back next week. It's a little brash, but it's a professional sport, not a "everyone who plays gets a prize!" sideshow.
Nerd wrote:
Your 2nd paragraph seems to contradict your first...
tobz wrote:
Thought you'd be smart enough to know that i was talking about the people that want points down to 40th position. As if you'd take the...
Thought you'd be smart enough to know that i was talking about the people that want points down to 40th position.

As if you'd take the "lets start subtracting points after 20th" cries seriously, anyway.
A sliding scale that starts at 25 and goes down to -25 is no different from one that starts at 50 and goes down to 0.

Only difference is that awarding 50 points per moto (100 for a national) throws the supercross scoring system out of whack when calculating AMA National permanent numbers and the like.
tobz
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6/2/2013 5:59pm
Nerd wrote:
Your 2nd paragraph seems to contradict your first...
tobz wrote:
Thought you'd be smart enough to know that i was talking about the people that want points down to 40th position. As if you'd take the...
Thought you'd be smart enough to know that i was talking about the people that want points down to 40th position.

As if you'd take the "lets start subtracting points after 20th" cries seriously, anyway.
Nerd wrote:
A sliding scale that starts at 25 and goes down to -25 is no different from one that starts at 50 and goes down to 0...
A sliding scale that starts at 25 and goes down to -25 is no different from one that starts at 50 and goes down to 0.

Only difference is that awarding 50 points per moto (100 for a national) throws the supercross scoring system out of whack when calculating AMA National permanent numbers and the like.
Right...? Like i said, i don't agree with any of it.

Pro's moaning because they were going to finish 21st and not get a point. God help them if their chosen talent was formula 1 or moto gp.
lumpy790
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6/2/2013 6:42pm
I somewhat agree .... why do they only reward half the competitors with points?
Nerd
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6/2/2013 6:46pm
Look at it like an overall finish.

If you're awarding a top-100 national number, should it go to:

A: The guy who battled it out and finished 20th 24 times and got 24 points?

B: The guy who DNF'd 20 times and finished 15th 4 times?
lumpy790
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6/2/2013 6:55pm
they should award bonus points .... best lap....most passes..... ect.
davis224
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6/2/2013 6:59pm
They should award points back to 40th. How does a DNF-20 beat a 21-21? Just figure out a new way to calculate points for the numbering system.
motoBRD
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6/2/2013 7:33pm Edited Date/Time 6/2/2013 7:35pm
This has been on my mind this week since the Matthes thread started. I think there are some issues with paying points to 40th considering the ideas given so far. Also, I don't think negative points are the answer.

I've been thinking about this idea, that 21st and 40th are treated the same as far as points are concerned. You get ZERO. That seems to mess up the way overalls are calculated, which also messes up the payout (since payout goes by your overall finish). I guess that would depend on whether payout is different 21-40. I would assume it is different, but haven't seen the payout scale.

For example, take Canard's day at Muddy Creek. 29-3. He scored 20pts in the second moto, which gave him enough points to score a 9th overall. It wouldn't have mattered if he scored a 40th in the first moto. He still would have scored 20pts. for 9th overall and received the same payout. That seems a bit screwy to me. I know we've evolved from the "add the two scores of 29 and 3 together" for the overall like at any local race, but it seems like that change has only screwed the privateer who went 20-17 on the day. Who was more consistent and who should get the better payout? To be even more drastic, take Brayton's 10-40 score. Scored 11pts to the privateer's 5pts., but add the scores and Brayton is at (50) and the privateer is at (37). Who should get the better payout?

It seems like a different points system, one where everyone is awarded points, would help alleviate the 21st-40th issue. Guess that depends on whether you think that really is an issue or not. IMO, I think the privateers get the shaft with this scoring system, which also affects how they get paid. That seems like a big deal to me, especially with guys that can barely afford to get to each race.
motoBRD
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6/2/2013 7:37pm
davis224 wrote:
They should award points back to 40th. How does a DNF-20 beat a 21-21? Just figure out a new way to calculate points for the numbering...
They should award points back to 40th. How does a DNF-20 beat a 21-21? Just figure out a new way to calculate points for the numbering system.
^ A shorter version of my post. My real issue is how this system affects payout, as I stated above.
Nerd
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6/2/2013 7:39pm
I think they're paid by moto, not overall. At least they used to be.
motoBRD
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6/2/2013 7:53pm
If they are paid by moto, then that would be a good thing for this scenario. But I would have a hard time seeing that be the case. What does Musquin get for 2-2 scores vs. Tomac and Kenny? If they are paid by moto, I would have to think 1st would pay way more than 2nd. But I guess you get a cool trophy and team bonuses for taking the overall on the day... Good on Moose-can. Payouts anyone? I'd be interested to see that.
Nerd
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6/2/2013 8:21pm
motoBRD wrote:
If they are paid by moto, then that would be a good thing for this scenario. But I would have a hard time seeing that be...
If they are paid by moto, then that would be a good thing for this scenario. But I would have a hard time seeing that be the case. What does Musquin get for 2-2 scores vs. Tomac and Kenny? If they are paid by moto, I would have to think 1st would pay way more than 2nd. But I guess you get a cool trophy and team bonuses for taking the overall on the day... Good on Moose-can. Payouts anyone? I'd be interested to see that.
Bonuses depend on the contract, but are usually by moto as well, sometimes with an added overall bonus on top of that.
VET176
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6/2/2013 8:22pm
How about MXON style points system?
jasonv43
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6/2/2013 9:20pm
I like the Holeshot bonus money system. Now they need to award actual points for the season as well. And points for laps led.

I don't get why they haven't done this yet.
KennyT
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6/2/2013 9:40pm
In order to improve the racing throughout the field award points to 40th
In order to improve intensity award a bonus point for leading a lap
ocscottie
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6/2/2013 10:11pm
In F1 they only give points to the top 10, and for the lower teams it is a huge goal and MAJOR accomplishment just to score 1 point.

Back in the days before the retarded numbering system came in, privateers where a bit like those lower teams in F1, clawing a scratching for every point in order to earn the lowest # they could at the end of the year....

Shit...what was my point again? lost my train of thought. Blink
SPYGUY
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6/3/2013 5:26am
So your average privateer would be better off not racing in order to finish higher in the points.

Brilliant.
Nerd
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6/3/2013 6:14am
SPYGUY wrote:
So your average privateer would be better off not racing in order to finish higher in the points.

Brilliant.
If you don't race, you don't finish anywhere in the points. Genius.
lumpy790
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6/3/2013 6:22am
your opinion smell like a ...... LOL

20 guys get zero number plate points even though they made the show and others did not.

Adding other ways to gain points can help tighten the points chase making a more exciting series.

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