Old Vs. New Unadilla

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8/14/2011 5:43 PM

With the added dirt and jumps, Unadilla seems like it's looking more like a modern MX track. I like the dirt, but I'm not sold on the jumps. I liked the old school feel of the place, and how it was always a nice departure from the rest of the series. It used to seem wider, and had tons of lines guys could take. Putting a bunch of man made obstacles into the place looks to have taken away some of the creativity guys can use. I remember Reynard taking insane lines on a super wide track to come from outside the top ten to beat RC, (who was comfortably in the lead for some time) in a 250 race. Maybe I'm just being nostalgic, but I like it better the old way.

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8/14/2011 5:53 PM

Did it change from last year?

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8/14/2011 5:54 PM

I posted almost the same thing earlier. I'm with you on that. And in particular, I loved the old section after the skyshot where they'd drop down and make that big right hand sweeper back up the hill.

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8/14/2011 5:56 PM

kardy wrote:

Did it change from last year?

Not sure that it did, but the place has changed nonetheless.

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8/14/2011 5:58 PM

kardy wrote:

Did it change from last year?

Track and Trail wrote:

Not sure that it did, but the place has changed nonetheless.

All of the other tracks, the bikes, the riders and the sport has changed too. Why would 'Dilla be any different?

Although I do agree I'd rather see a fully naturalized track on the circuit too, just because it'd be different and cool.

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8/14/2011 5:59 PM

I like the new layout. Modern bikes are capable of so much more now, why not let them ride a track that matches the bikes capabilities. Just my opinion of course.

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8/14/2011 6:05 PM

My bad the RR Vs. RC battle was in the 125's in 1998. Awesome race for RR.

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8/14/2011 6:06 PM

WhKnuckle wrote:

I posted almost the same thing earlier. I'm with you on that. And in particular, I loved the old section after the skyshot where they'd drop down and make that big right hand sweeper back up the hill.

I like the track with two exceptions; taking out the right hand uphill that you mentioned, and shortening the start. I miss that long start with the drop and rise before the first corner.

That said, the speed that these guys are doing is unbelievable.

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8/14/2011 6:06 PM

machine wrote:

I like the new layout. Modern bikes are capable of so much more now, why not let them ride a track that matches the bikes capabilities. Just my opinion of course.

I agree. That and the fact that if there were no jumps, the 450's would be doing 85 mph on the straights. The bikes are so fast now that stuff has to be added to the track to slow them down.

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8/14/2011 6:10 PM

machine wrote:

I like the new layout. Modern bikes are capable of so much more now, why not let them ride a track that matches the bikes capabilities. Just my opinion of course.

redrider400 wrote:

I agree. That and the fact that if there were no jumps, the 450's would be doing 85 mph on the straights. The bikes are so fast now that stuff has to be added to the track to slow them down.

They used to race 500s there and everybody survived...

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8/14/2011 6:31 PM

Track and Trail wrote:

My bad the RR Vs. RC battle was in the 125's in 1998. Awesome race for RR.

Insane corner speed. That was awesome, thanks for posting.

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8/14/2011 6:31 PM

WhKnuckle wrote:

They used to race 500s there and everybody survived...

I see your point but whats faster RD on his Zook or a 86 CR500?

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8/14/2011 6:34 PM

kardy wrote:

Did it change from last year?

Track and Trail wrote:

Not sure that it did, but the place has changed nonetheless.

kardy wrote:

All of the other tracks, the bikes, the riders and the sport has changed too. Why would 'Dilla be any different?

Although I do agree I'd rather see a fully naturalized track on the circuit too, just because it'd be different and cool.

I agree that we agree. wink Also, as to why 'Dilla would be any different as far as progressing with the other tracks, I believe you gave a wonderful answer to that in your response.

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8/14/2011 6:45 PM

machine wrote:

I like the new layout. Modern bikes are capable of so much more now, why not let them ride a track that matches the bikes capabilities. Just my opinion of course.

I actually like the new layout too. It reminds me of an epic video game track. It's disappointing that to get this sweet track they had to sacrifice the last of the old school tracks though.

As to the capabilities part, again there is a trade off being made. I feel we lose the creativity in line choice in return for the capability to do a huge sky shot.

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8/14/2011 7:04 PM

I DO NOT like how all the track are getting tilled up so deep prior to the race. Turns into a rut fest and all the tracks look the same.

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8/14/2011 7:09 PM

machine wrote:

I like the new layout. Modern bikes are capable of so much more now, why not let them ride a track that matches the bikes capabilities. Just my opinion of course.

Track and Trail wrote:

I actually like the new layout too. It reminds me of an epic video game track. It's disappointing that to get this sweet track they had to sacrifice the last of the old school tracks though.

As to the capabilities part, again there is a trade off being made. I feel we lose the creativity in line choice in return for the capability to do a huge sky shot.

I think PRM31's point about tracks getting tilled so deep contributes to the line choice thing more than anything. They often end up with one or two main ruts, that if they get out of them, they are screwed.

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8/14/2011 7:17 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/14/2011 7:22 PM

There has to be a reason behind the ridiculous tilling. It's a relatively new thing (I think) to till it really deep. Anyone know the impetus behind this? DC? Note the video above, the riders could go anywhere on the track, cut from one side to the other, etc, vice being stuck in a groove.

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8/14/2011 7:44 PM

redrider400 wrote:

I agree. That and the fact that if there were no jumps, the 450's would be doing 85 mph on the straights. The bikes are so fast now that stuff has to be added to the track to slow them down.

WhKnuckle wrote:

They used to race 500s there and everybody survived...

chrisbuehler wrote:

I see your point but whats faster RD on his Zook or a 86 CR500?

A 2001 500 is faster than a 2011 450 or 520; I'm sure a late-80s factory 500 was at least as fast as a 2011 factory 450. 500s could be tuned to deliver more power than anyone could use - the riders were the limiting factor, not the ability to make power. My stock 500AF is geared for 90 MPH+ and will out accelerate any normal four stroke if traction is not a limiting factor. And they raced those bikes on the old Unadilla layout for years. Modern chassis' will keep the wheels on the ground better than the old bikes, but the track doesn't look nearly as rough as it used to be, either. It's hard to say what the difference would be speed-wise.

I assume they've changed the layout more to make it modern than to slow the bikes down, but who knows? But it certainly is not the same natural layout that it was through the early 2000s. But it's not my track, the owners do what they want with it. The sport changes, and the tracks change, too.

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8/14/2011 8:01 PM

PRM31 wrote:

I DO NOT like how all the track are getting tilled up so deep prior to the race. Turns into a rut fest and all the tracks look the same.

Agreed. This is just getting ridiculous. It's one thing to make sure there's a cushion on the track, it's another to make it so deep the bikes get stuck in ruts.

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8/14/2011 11:45 PM

WhKnuckle wrote:

They used to race 500s there and everybody survived...

chrisbuehler wrote:

I see your point but whats faster RD on his Zook or a 86 CR500?

WhKnuckle wrote:

A 2001 500 is faster than a 2011 450 or 520; I'm sure a late-80s factory 500 was at least as fast as a 2011 factory 450. 500s could be tuned to deliver more power than anyone could use - the riders were the limiting factor, not the ability to make power. My stock 500AF is geared for 90 MPH+ and will out accelerate any normal four stroke if traction is not a limiting factor. And they raced those bikes on the old Unadilla layout for years. Modern chassis' will keep the wheels on the ground better than the old bikes, but the track doesn't look nearly as rough as it used to be, either. It's hard to say what the difference would be speed-wise.

I assume they've changed the layout more to make it modern than to slow the bikes down, but who knows? But it certainly is not the same natural layout that it was through the early 2000s. But it's not my track, the owners do what they want with it. The sport changes, and the tracks change, too.

and our old asses are stuck with memories of 70(+) hp 500's pinned to the stops. (I heard of euro works Honda getting 80 out of theirs)

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8/15/2011 12:03 AM

chalk me up as another vote for the old 'dilla.

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not cool enough for motodrivel....banned from motodrive....so im stuck here to rot.

8/15/2011 6:11 AM

Mod Killer wrote:

chalk me up as another vote for the old 'dilla.

X2..!

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8/15/2011 6:56 AM

We have enough man made tracks.

I prefer to see the Unadilla pro course remain as natural terrain.

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Pierce Law
AMA Pro 131
1977-1979
Suzuki RM 250/400
New York

8/15/2011 7:15 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/15/2011 7:18 AM

machine wrote:

I like the new layout. Modern bikes are capable of so much more now, why not let them ride a track that matches the bikes capabilities. Just my opinion of course.

redrider400 wrote:

I agree. That and the fact that if there were no jumps, the 450's would be doing 85 mph on the straights. The bikes are so fast now that stuff has to be added to the track to slow them down.

Today' riders are supposedly better conditioned, yet ride 10 minute shorter motos on bikes, that are mechanically superior (vs even the trickiest works bikes from years ago) on for the most part (hang town, Freestone, Red Bud were rough this year - assume south wick and pala maybe). smooth tracks with man made obstacles. Is it impressive what they do, yes. Does it compare to real MX, no. Unfortunately, my favorite track ever, has become an absolute shadow of it's former self. It is all dressed up nice, but is way too smooth and quickly becoming too littered with manmade obstacles. Who wants to bet there is at least one new one next year? Why not move the track one way or the other to find some virgin loam? Whoever thought it was a good idea to shorten an fill in the start lost his/ her marbles. Leave it natural. The options are endless, it just takes vision. The name remains, but the soul is gone.

Most have seen this video that DC linked on Racerhead. Who wouldn't want to see today's riders and machines find their way around the real Unadilla? I bet DeCoster just laughs when his or other riders pull off or are tired from their 35 minute motos! You can bet Hannah does! And maybe even Law131 - he raced the track in the video many times.

&feature=player_embedded#at=185
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8/15/2011 7:29 AM

Hey Science,

Did you get to the race yesterday?

Thanks for that video.

I raced the 500's that day in 79.

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Pierce Law
AMA Pro 131
1977-1979
Suzuki RM 250/400
New York

8/15/2011 7:33 AM

PRM31 wrote:

I DO NOT like how all the track are getting tilled up so deep prior to the race. Turns into a rut fest and all the tracks look the same.

WhKnuckle wrote:

Agreed. This is just getting ridiculous. It's one thing to make sure there's a cushion on the track, it's another to make it so deep the bikes get stuck in ruts.

I think the "s" turns are a problem there and at a few other tracks also because of the deep tilling and watering. They all become one or two lined and the lappers can't get out of the way when the leaders come through, riders cannot "cross over" between lines or they highside. Plus when two or three riders are racing for position they all have to fall in single file instead of inside out moves in those sharp corners that would add to passing and excitement! Tilling holds water but at least leave some of the "s" turns less deep and just moist enough to hold down dust.

Another thing that made Dilla look bad this year was the bad camera angles, compare last year to this year and you can see how the track does not seem to have elevation any longer ie; the sky shot for one. I like a lot of the things they are doing with the tracks today and used to race those early 70's tracks so i can tell you first hand that i would hate it if they went back to the tracks we had to ride back then! Dilla and other natural tracks that had built in jumps etc plus some sand tracks around the world were good back in the day but let me tell you, you would not want to ride the majority of the old school tracks!

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dont screw with me, i am old and feeling grumpy..

8/15/2011 7:38 AM

The new double going into the turn before you get to the section where Stewart and Rc hit sucked. It was much better when they went all the way up and dropped back in.

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8/15/2011 7:42 AM

I watched the first motos on Alli.

The Screw-U appears to be the only item left untouched from 79.

Gravity Cavity is very smooth compared to the rutted up mine field it was in 79.

The apple tree is still there. The switch backs through that section have been sanitized.

All this nostalgia about the old track notwithstanding, MX Sports did an A+ job putting on this years event.

Congrats!

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Pierce Law
AMA Pro 131
1977-1979
Suzuki RM 250/400
New York

8/15/2011 10:52 AM

Stickers wrote:

The new double going into the turn before you get to the section where Stewart and Rc hit sucked. It was much better when they went all the way up and dropped back in.

I agree with you 100% Stickers. I understand that they are actually trying to slow down the speeds on the track by adding jumps and turns, but whoever the track designer is at Dilla has mad some bad decisions. That stupid double that everybody was slamming into the face(before the old Stewart/RC hill turn) was a terrible idea. "Ummm we need to slow the speeds down, lets build a double that everybody cases every lap". Dumb and unsafe. Even the double going up the old Elevator shaft looked like a really hard, un-necessary landing. The new step-up heading towards the start had a crazy buck at the top. I think when it was built they didn't pack in the top of the lip. I love Dilla(especially since Broome-Tioga doesn't have a national anymore) but some of the track changes they are making are not good. There are better/safer ways to slow up track speeds other than slamming into the face of a double.

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8/15/2011 11:03 AM

i thought the track looked Rad this year.

RV made that track his bitch!

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