Odds of another series..think aaf vs nfl

dadofagun
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2/20/2019 11:05am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2019 11:06am
There’s a non Feld series out there called the Kicker Arenacross series and on average 8-10 pro riders are showing up. It pays good too. Supercross...
There’s a non Feld series out there called the Kicker Arenacross series and on average 8-10 pro riders are showing up. It pays good too.

Supercross only has 40 guys showing up in the 450 class (plus or minus).

Plainly put- racing is declining. There is no need for a farm system.

I don’t know what the canary out of the colemine was, but he flew long ago. Now it’s just time to sit back and watch it burn to the ground. Cheers.
The decline can be blamed on a ton of things.... Economy, greedy promoters, 4 strokes, lawsuits, etc..... who knows? I know times change, I get it. But, it's just sad to look back to the days when a guy, or a kid with his folks, could toss an affordable bike in the truck and enjoy a Sunday. Bring a couple lawn chairs, ice chest, gear, tools, you were set. Bikes could be had for a song, tracks were literally everywhere, and everyone seemed to be really into the sport on a grassroots level. Now?? It's turned for the most part into a richer mans game, a game which can quickly deplete their hefty bank accounts in a matter of seconds, virtually eliminating the lower income folks to even consider trying to take part. Home schooling kids, motorigs, trainers, multiple bikes, all while Jonny go fast has the hand writing skills of Edward Scissorhands at 13..... I'm old, and I've witnessed the sport in all aspects for over 42 years now. Sadly, we have come a hell of a long ways, all to be headed on a road to nowhere. I love this silly, dangerous game, but it is declining faster than most folks can see......
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CozMan
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2/20/2019 11:23am
You guys are bashing the idea, but yes, I think it's entirely possible.

1. Get title sponsor ($$$)
2. Get sponsors for other portions of race-day (pits, finish line, tuff blocks, etc) ($$$)
3. Create lucrative payout for top riders. This would enable a top 30 group of riders to actually travel from city to city, being paid enough each weekend to fund the next week comfortably. You better believe there are 30 dudes in AMerica that would do this, AND would be at a talent level that would be appropriate.
4. Figure out a way to stream it live FOR FREE. Again, not hard with sponsors, ads, etc.

You do all that, and I guarantee you that Vital sees posts of "Did you see the block pass on XYZ last night in the "Chevy Trucks SuperX Series"??? We'd start following the riders, the standings, and cheering for these sub-par racers. Hell, I'd hazard we might actually enjoy the racing just as much as it would be slower, filled with mistakes, and some aggressive racing cause these guys are racing for the week's pay.

the whole concept is no different than arenacross which had a helluva run. Just take out the quirky tiny-track aspect and make them real tracks (at even practice SX tracks throughout the country) and it could be great fun.
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GuyB
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2/20/2019 11:29am
Personally, I think it would be the worst possible thing for our sport.

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byke
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2/20/2019 11:29am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2019 11:35am
@CozMan: From that angle it's highly unlikely and if it happened, it would just turn into the greedy buddy-buddy cesspool already in place. For it to happen without the greedy part, you'd need the independently wealthy benevolent dictator, a Mike Genova of sorts.

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RichieW13
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2/20/2019 11:41am
mx 219 wrote:
I think that may be a little unrealistic as only 2 riders get that now, 1st and 2nd and in the 450 class. Have had a...
I think that may be a little unrealistic as only 2 riders get that now, 1st and 2nd and in the 450 class. Have had a hard time finding the 2019 numbers for the 250 class, it's possible that 1st in the 250 class may be at or above $5000, but not sure.

I think it is realistic to get closer to that number once you start including profit sharing though. It would be hard to judge profit sharing now, but being that the riders are the show, I do feel that profit sharing would be more enticing for the riders.

With all the riders that have retired over the past say 5 years and privateers I think you could get some good guys to show up with a good purse. I think even if it was limited to two classes maybe a 125 stock class and a 250f class similar to what we have now I think it could even be a stepping stone to SX. Make tracks that maybe aren't quite as gnarly as what the guys have now, but larger than the arenacross tracks.
Here are the 2017 numbers. I saw something for the 2018 450 class, and that was the same. So I wouldn't be surprised if this is still accurate for 2019.


Tarz483
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2/20/2019 11:47am
CozMan wrote:
You guys are bashing the idea, but yes, I think it's entirely possible. 1. Get title sponsor ($$$) 2. Get sponsors for other portions of race-day...
You guys are bashing the idea, but yes, I think it's entirely possible.

1. Get title sponsor ($$$)
2. Get sponsors for other portions of race-day (pits, finish line, tuff blocks, etc) ($$$)
3. Create lucrative payout for top riders. This would enable a top 30 group of riders to actually travel from city to city, being paid enough each weekend to fund the next week comfortably. You better believe there are 30 dudes in AMerica that would do this, AND would be at a talent level that would be appropriate.
4. Figure out a way to stream it live FOR FREE. Again, not hard with sponsors, ads, etc.

You do all that, and I guarantee you that Vital sees posts of "Did you see the block pass on XYZ last night in the "Chevy Trucks SuperX Series"??? We'd start following the riders, the standings, and cheering for these sub-par racers. Hell, I'd hazard we might actually enjoy the racing just as much as it would be slower, filled with mistakes, and some aggressive racing cause these guys are racing for the week's pay.

the whole concept is no different than arenacross which had a helluva run. Just take out the quirky tiny-track aspect and make them real tracks (at even practice SX tracks throughout the country) and it could be great fun.
Yeah i agree that would be awsome , and the smaller track of arenacross is the reason i was never able to get into it , even though i think it would be fun to ride , its not that much fun to watch to me anyway
gabrielito
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2/20/2019 11:53am
Competition is always better than not. It would be impossible using stadiums but I think a bunch of Daytona type races at car tracks would be awesome and better for the sport than what fans are currently offered. The SX product sucks right now. The promoter, the lack of integrity in governing bodies, the size of bikes used all contribute to the poor state the sport is in now. Having a competitor with MX fans in mind would be a huge improvement.
mx 219
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2/20/2019 12:01pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2019 12:07pm
GuyB wrote:
Personally, I think it would be the worst possible thing for our sport.

maybe for FELD...potential winners: riders and new promoters.

A little competition can be good. If the worst thing to come about from it is a higher payout for the riders in Monster Energy SX then I guess there is still a win. Even if it was a series more for kids before they go pro in SX or privateers that would like to see a bigger payout than what they see now and tamer tracks that would be longer than an AX.

The only one really losing out in my opinion is FELD, or would it just force them to share a bigger piece of the pie?

If the series were geared more towards privateers or retired racers that maybe want to throw their leg over the bike again here or there than that doesn't take anything away from SX. Being that the factories wouldn't be for it, it would be hard to get factory riders to come out if a series would start; maybe never get factory riders to come out. If the best thing that came from it would be a higher payout I would be for that.

I'm not necessarily looking out for the factory guys because they do get good bonuses and sponsorship deals, but $4300 for 3rd place in a 450 SX main is pathetic in 2019.
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cwtoyota
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2/20/2019 12:16pm
There’s a non Feld series out there called the Kicker Arenacross series and on average 8-10 pro riders are showing up. It pays good too. Supercross...
There’s a non Feld series out there called the Kicker Arenacross series and on average 8-10 pro riders are showing up. It pays good too.

Supercross only has 40 guys showing up in the 450 class (plus or minus).

Plainly put- racing is declining. There is no need for a farm system.

I don’t know what the canary out of the colemine was, but he flew long ago. Now it’s just time to sit back and watch it burn to the ground. Cheers.
The canary in the coal mine...

It's hard to disagree with that point when you consider the cost of a new bike, a pick-up truck, insurance and compare it to the income of a guy in his 20's.

Pile on all the crazy changes going on in our culture, not as many kids are even getting interested in the sport in the first place.

Enjoy it as much as you can... Things like this disappear fast when they are no longer profitable.
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CozMan
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2/20/2019 12:23pm
meh - ya'll are just being negative simply to be negative. Not one of you have stated any FACT-based reason for why it wouldn't work, instead you're spouting hypothetical stuff about how it might hurt one series vs another.

If someone could get some serious title sponsors, there would be PLENTY of sponsors that would throw some money at this. Simplify production (lose all the circus BS that is associated with SX), run them at car tracks, outdoor SX tracks, etc...stream them live (they stream LL's) and pay the hell outta the riders - and boom - you have a viable series that can grow.

and knowing whta a bunch of motoheads you guys are...despite your resistance - you'd cheer them on and support it.
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RichieW13
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2/20/2019 12:30pm
CozMan wrote:
meh - ya'll are just being negative simply to be negative. Not one of you have stated any FACT-based reason for why it wouldn't work, instead...
meh - ya'll are just being negative simply to be negative. Not one of you have stated any FACT-based reason for why it wouldn't work, instead you're spouting hypothetical stuff about how it might hurt one series vs another.

If someone could get some serious title sponsors, there would be PLENTY of sponsors that would throw some money at this. Simplify production (lose all the circus BS that is associated with SX), run them at car tracks, outdoor SX tracks, etc...stream them live (they stream LL's) and pay the hell outta the riders - and boom - you have a viable series that can grow.

and knowing whta a bunch of motoheads you guys are...despite your resistance - you'd cheer them on and support it.
I think the biggest issue would be if factories are truly loyal to Feld, AMA and FIM. Would they ever get behind a new series?

If not, then a new series would be a tier lower than Supercross. Would a series like that do any better than Arenacross?
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CozMan
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2/20/2019 12:34pm
RichieW13 wrote:
I think the biggest issue would be if factories are truly loyal to Feld, AMA and FIM. Would they ever get behind a new series? If...
I think the biggest issue would be if factories are truly loyal to Feld, AMA and FIM. Would they ever get behind a new series?

If not, then a new series would be a tier lower than Supercross. Would a series like that do any better than Arenacross?
maybe, but to start - who cares?? A bunch of quasi-amateurs would show up in their box trucks w/ their mechanic and bike. If the OEMs scoff at it, oh well. Hopefully they could get some good parts sponsors to keep them up and running and to get through the season. If it does well and grows a following, the OEMs will follow. We don't NEED Team Honda to be at such a series...we're talking about B-level pros that will be bringing their own bikes/equipment.

you guys are overthinking things.
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RichieW13
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2/20/2019 12:38pm
RichieW13 wrote:
I think the biggest issue would be if factories are truly loyal to Feld, AMA and FIM. Would they ever get behind a new series? If...
I think the biggest issue would be if factories are truly loyal to Feld, AMA and FIM. Would they ever get behind a new series?

If not, then a new series would be a tier lower than Supercross. Would a series like that do any better than Arenacross?
CozMan wrote:
maybe, but to start - who cares?? A bunch of quasi-amateurs would show up in their box trucks w/ their mechanic and bike. If the OEMs...
maybe, but to start - who cares?? A bunch of quasi-amateurs would show up in their box trucks w/ their mechanic and bike. If the OEMs scoff at it, oh well. Hopefully they could get some good parts sponsors to keep them up and running and to get through the season. If it does well and grows a following, the OEMs will follow. We don't NEED Team Honda to be at such a series...we're talking about B-level pros that will be bringing their own bikes/equipment.

you guys are overthinking things.
If you only get B-level pros, will you have enough fans to provide the purses that you want to give the riders? If you don't have the fans, you can't get the sponsorships, etc.
CozMan
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2/20/2019 12:48pm
RichieW13 wrote:
If you only get B-level pros, will you have enough fans to provide the purses that you want to give the riders? If you don't have...
If you only get B-level pros, will you have enough fans to provide the purses that you want to give the riders? If you don't have the fans, you can't get the sponsorships, etc.
everything is an unknown. If you wrote me a check for $250,000 and said "Go out and put together a functioning, viable series and come back to me with the whole biz model"...I think I could do it.

Some of this is that you're assuming fans will only show up for big-name riders, OEMs, etc...but they also pack MonsterJam and nobody gives a shit about the drivers or the trucks - they come for a good show. I bet that if you could put on some great heads-up racing presented in an intelligent format, you could get it off the ground.

It's no different than this new football league - they are B-level players putting on a good show and attendance has been "ok" so far. Maybe it picks up, maybe it falls to pieces. But I think SX is different than football, because fball requires an emotional component of "cheering" for your team - SX just requires good racing.

Oh well - we'll probably never know but it's a fun mental exercise.
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mauidex
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2/20/2019 12:49pm
“If someone could get some serious title sponsors, there would be PLENTY of sponsors that would throw some money at this”


Yeah because they’re all beating down the door right now for the main series in major stadiums with an nbc tv package and the backing of every major motorcycle company in the game
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neverwas
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2/20/2019 12:53pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2019 12:54pm
RichieW13 wrote:
I think the biggest issue would be if factories are truly loyal to Feld, AMA and FIM. Would they ever get behind a new series? If...
I think the biggest issue would be if factories are truly loyal to Feld, AMA and FIM. Would they ever get behind a new series?

If not, then a new series would be a tier lower than Supercross. Would a series like that do any better than Arenacross?
CozMan wrote:
maybe, but to start - who cares?? A bunch of quasi-amateurs would show up in their box trucks w/ their mechanic and bike. If the OEMs...
maybe, but to start - who cares?? A bunch of quasi-amateurs would show up in their box trucks w/ their mechanic and bike. If the OEMs scoff at it, oh well. Hopefully they could get some good parts sponsors to keep them up and running and to get through the season. If it does well and grows a following, the OEMs will follow. We don't NEED Team Honda to be at such a series...we're talking about B-level pros that will be bringing their own bikes/equipment.

you guys are overthinking things.
Your'e under thinking how easy it is to get serious money and title sponsors into our sport.,if it was so easy why are some of the teams now struggling and the numbers they need are minuscule to what your'e talking about.
Not impossible but not nearly as easy as you are thinking.
One other question is,Do any of the business minded guys on here actually have and run a business?
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lostboy819
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2/20/2019 1:00pm
I would love a series that wasn't controlled or sponsored by a poisonous energy drink....
What a dork, maybe we should go back to it being the Camel Supercross series then your panties would really get in a twist.

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byke
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2/20/2019 1:08pm
They're basically the same thing. A lot has changed, yet nothing has changed. Corporations still selling their soul and don't care who they poison as long as they get them bucks from those they've fooled.
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CozMan
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2/20/2019 1:16pm
economics. How do 10 mx magazines exist? They're all after the same ad $$$, yet most make it work. Lower your costs, find a niche audience and a series like this could take off. For FOX RACING...advertising (sponsoring) races that are attended by amateur mx guys and homegrown people would be a niche audience as their advertising for MESX is totally different.
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lostboy819
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2/20/2019 1:18pm
byke wrote:
They're basically the same thing. A lot has changed, yet nothing has changed. Corporations still selling their soul and don't care who they poison as long...
They're basically the same thing. A lot has changed, yet nothing has changed. Corporations still selling their soul and don't care who they poison as long as they get them bucks from those they've fooled.
GuyB
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2/20/2019 1:46pm
mx 219 wrote:
maybe for FELD...potential winners: riders and new promoters. A little competition can be good. If the worst thing to come about from it is a higher...
maybe for FELD...potential winners: riders and new promoters.

A little competition can be good. If the worst thing to come about from it is a higher payout for the riders in Monster Energy SX then I guess there is still a win. Even if it was a series more for kids before they go pro in SX or privateers that would like to see a bigger payout than what they see now and tamer tracks that would be longer than an AX.

The only one really losing out in my opinion is FELD, or would it just force them to share a bigger piece of the pie?

If the series were geared more towards privateers or retired racers that maybe want to throw their leg over the bike again here or there than that doesn't take anything away from SX. Being that the factories wouldn't be for it, it would be hard to get factory riders to come out if a series would start; maybe never get factory riders to come out. If the best thing that came from it would be a higher payout I would be for that.

I'm not necessarily looking out for the factory guys because they do get good bonuses and sponsorship deals, but $4300 for 3rd place in a 450 SX main is pathetic in 2019.
GuyB
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2/20/2019 6:49pm
CozMan wrote:
totally incomparable, but you knew that already.
Is it? Some teams are in favor of expanding Supercross. Some aren’t. If there’s a division and teams get pulled in different directions, it’s not going to be a pretty picture for anyone.
CozMan
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2/20/2019 6:56pm
GuyB wrote:
Is it? Some teams are in favor of expanding Supercross. Some aren’t. If there’s a division and teams get pulled in different directions, it’s not going...
Is it? Some teams are in favor of expanding Supercross. Some aren’t. If there’s a division and teams get pulled in different directions, it’s not going to be a pretty picture for anyone.
it's not an expansion of supercross at all, and that's why it's incomparable. It's not pulling teams in different pictures, and it's not "fracturing" the fan base.

Jeez, you guys have overcomplicated a most simple hypothetical question posed by OP and turned it into some sort of defensive argument against an alternate series as if it's going to ruin the entire sport.
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GuyB
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2/20/2019 7:00pm
CozMan wrote:
it's not an expansion of supercross at all, and that's why it's incomparable. It's not pulling teams in different pictures, and it's not "fracturing" the fan...
it's not an expansion of supercross at all, and that's why it's incomparable. It's not pulling teams in different pictures, and it's not "fracturing" the fan base.

Jeez, you guys have overcomplicated a most simple hypothetical question posed by OP and turned it into some sort of defensive argument against an alternate series as if it's going to ruin the entire sport.
I’m pointing out an example of where it’s happened in the past in a different motorsport. It didn’t work out so great for anyone involved.
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HusqFan3
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2/20/2019 8:12pm
mx 219 wrote:
As a businessman at heart and small time entrepreneur (at this point). I cant help but think that Feld is raking in the dough with sx...
As a businessman at heart and small time entrepreneur (at this point). I cant help but think that Feld is raking in the dough with sx. I have crunched numbers before and im sure i have missed expenses but there is no way Feld is not making money (i would believe very good money). If they werent they wouldnt keep doing it.

Is there a chance we see another series? Sure top riders on the factory teams may not race or the factories may not initially support it but if you cna do some good marketing, fair pricing, fair vendor pricing, BETTER PAYOUTS, PROFIT SHARING with the riders (even a little can go a long way). Let others pay to stream per race or series. Is it not possible that another series vould pop up.

Yes, i understand Feld has most larger stadiums under contract, but Feld doesnt have all stadiums under contract. If someone got creative enough i think it could happen. As matter of fact, i would love me a piece of that pie...maybe in time.
It’s fun to dream but not happening. You can raise capital for football because the NFL is the most successful sports entity on the planet and only operates 5 months out of the year so people see white space opportunity. MX/SX events don’t even come close to selling out or drawing big TV ratings as is so there’s simply nothing left to go after...
motogrady
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2/20/2019 8:20pm
CozMan wrote:
it's not an expansion of supercross at all, and that's why it's incomparable. It's not pulling teams in different pictures, and it's not "fracturing" the fan...
it's not an expansion of supercross at all, and that's why it's incomparable. It's not pulling teams in different pictures, and it's not "fracturing" the fan base.

Jeez, you guys have overcomplicated a most simple hypothetical question posed by OP and turned it into some sort of defensive argument against an alternate series as if it's going to ruin the entire sport.
GuyB wrote:
I’m pointing out an example of where it’s happened in the past in a different motorsport. It didn’t work out so great for anyone involved.

That was a good read.

The most surprising thing, to me, was the guy that split from the powers that be, won in the end.
GuyB
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2/20/2019 8:45pm
CozMan wrote:
it's not an expansion of supercross at all, and that's why it's incomparable. It's not pulling teams in different pictures, and it's not "fracturing" the fan...
it's not an expansion of supercross at all, and that's why it's incomparable. It's not pulling teams in different pictures, and it's not "fracturing" the fan base.

Jeez, you guys have overcomplicated a most simple hypothetical question posed by OP and turned it into some sort of defensive argument against an alternate series as if it's going to ruin the entire sport.
GuyB wrote:
I’m pointing out an example of where it’s happened in the past in a different motorsport. It didn’t work out so great for anyone involved.
motogrady wrote:

That was a good read.

The most surprising thing, to me, was the guy that split from the powers that be, won in the end.
It helped that they had control of the biggest race in the series.
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