Number System

Tarz483
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Edited Date/Time 10/11/2020 6:35am
I was just Reading about GNCC mountain bike racing which I really really want to try someday, I went to the one at the Loretta Lynns amateur national to watch and it looked so fun!
If I Can ever afford one I definitely will get one and hope to in the future.. I also think E-mountain bike racing is gonna grow in popularity big time and most likely be in every state in the near future, Although I would guess that there will be different variations of it. Here are the Current rules https://gnccracing.com/page/emtb-competition-rules
Anyway about the number system. I THINK ITS Awesome the way they are doing it. I'm sure I've said it before on here but I hate the permanent number system and I really wish we could go back to the top 100 in points get that number for the following year. In my opinion they should do that in both classes and just have a different background color all the way through 1-100 just like they do now with the number one!

NATIONAL OVERALL NUMBER ASSIGNMENT:
The electronic scoring system provides a complete overall race finish for each event. Points will be accumulated for National Number assignment and can be viewed as a gage toward overall ranking for the year.

National Numbers will be assigned based on overall finishes in a minimum of 4 events, with as many as 6 events counting. The minimum number of events does not have to be in the same class, but it must be in the same discipline.

Final National Numbers will be awarded to the top 20 overall first, regardless of number of events entered, then to remaining riders.

Ties: Ties in the top 20 National Numbers will be broken by the most first place overall finishes, then by the most second place overall finishes, etc., until the tie is broken. Ties for remaining national numbers will be broken by the higher overall finish in the final race of the season.
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SPYGUY
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10/7/2020 12:10pm
GNCC assigns motorcycle numbers based on the previous years overall results as well.

And nearly every top rider chooses to run their "permanent" 3-digit number instead.
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MZ193
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10/7/2020 12:32pm
I like the current number system
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EngIceDave
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10/7/2020 12:37pm
The current system is fine, but as with many things, it needs adjustment,
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Rabbit
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10/7/2020 12:39pm
Playing a bit of a devil's advocate here, but what if the teams owned the numbers to market their riders/bikes? Kinda like IndyCar.
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The Shop

EngIceDave
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10/7/2020 12:44pm
Rabbit wrote:
Playing a bit of a devil's advocate here, but what if the teams owned the numbers to market their riders/bikes? Kinda like IndyCar.
I've thought of that, it's a good idea, but IMO, problem is, everyone will want lower numbers and if the OEM's can't have 1-2-3-4-5, but another OEM can, that won't fly.

Have to be, if you want a #1 on your bike, you'll have to buy it

My issue is in how the points are awarded, 450 and 250, and how 250 SX points are tallied is bogus IMO

I also think the numbers should be awarded only to 250/450 SX/MX event/race winners and past champions.

Need to have at least won a race to get a 450 perm #....Just my feelings on it
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Johnny Depp
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10/8/2020 7:18am
Numbers are obsolete. It's 2020 and we still are expected to refer to a program to figure out who's on the bike?
Initials with a 3rd # to differentiate between those with common initials is so much simpler.
40-50 years later we have FB sites posting up pictures of the good old days and most have no idea who the riders are. It's just dumb. F*** tradition. Numbers were created back when teams used to have jerseys used year after year by different players.
Even here the common language is initials. ET3, JS7 etc. otherwise you have no idea who is 3 and who is 7.
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TheGetFresh
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10/8/2020 3:53pm
Numbers are used for marketing and branding in most motorsports and even other sports. Valentino Rossi uses 46 as a psuedo-brand, as does Marc Marquez with 93. Even team sports where numbers connote certain positions and can be used at the same time on the same field by different teams are used for branding, as with Tom Brady (TB12) and Cristiano Ronaldo (CR7). Not to mention Michael Jordan making millions of dollars off #23.

This all comes down to race teams being part of the corporate marketing budget. Assigning numbers for top factory riders is bad for business.
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RichieW13
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10/8/2020 4:32pm
EngIceDave wrote:
The current system is fine, but as with many things, it needs adjustment,
Agreed. On one hand it doesn't seem great when a guy can earn a single-digit (or even a top-20) number based on what they did as a 250 rider, but then move to 450 and not be a podium contender.

On the other hand, if they only allow 450 champs to get a single-digit, there won't be many single-digit riders. But maybe that's fine. That would make a single-digit number that much more impressive, and will spread out the amount of time between riders claiming those numbers.
loftyair
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riverside, CA US
10/8/2020 4:50pm
Top ten should be assigned to previous years results. Outside of top ten a sort-of 'career' number. The new-fan-folk to the game will get it much more.
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Tarz483
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10/8/2020 5:02pm
loftyair wrote:
Top ten should be assigned to previous years results. Outside of top ten a sort-of 'career' number. The new-fan-folk to the game will get it much...
Top ten should be assigned to previous years results. Outside of top ten a sort-of 'career' number. The new-fan-folk to the game will get it much more.
I Feel like the outside fans would get it more if it went by previous years result as well but I would like it to be all the way through to 100
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Renner153
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10/9/2020 2:56am
The number system sucks. Spend half the year trying to remember who is who. Letting the riders choose their number and leave them is the way to go. Everyone complains because the riders cant sell merchandise at the races, but even if they could, who would buy a Jett Lawrence 83 shirt when the following year his number will be different? If Chad Reed or James Stewart didnt have career numbers, there would not have been a "two two motorsports" or a "Seven" gear brand. Sure, make the reigning champion run #1, let everyone else run the number they want so they can actually brand themselves.
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Robgvx
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10/9/2020 6:31am
How does that work when a rider needs a number to bolster his image? Shouldn’t it be his name that he wants fans to know him by?

How many motocross riders make money from number-based merchandise? They’re not even allowed to sell any at races.

Numbers should reflect status/ranking IMO. Makes it easier for new fans to identify the good guys too.

If all of the above is BS, why do AMA champs have to run #1?



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tuttle425
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10/9/2020 6:38am
What the hell good are numbers on bikes when the god damn plates are so small you can’t even read them?
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Tarz483
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10/9/2020 6:51am
Robgvx wrote:
How does that work when a rider needs a number to bolster his image? Shouldn’t it be his name that he wants fans to know him...
How does that work when a rider needs a number to bolster his image? Shouldn’t it be his name that he wants fans to know him by?

How many motocross riders make money from number-based merchandise? They’re not even allowed to sell any at races.

Numbers should reflect status/ranking IMO. Makes it easier for new fans to identify the good guys too.

If all of the above is BS, why do AMA champs have to run #1?



My thoughts exactly.
10/9/2020 5:12pm
I like the number system, however I don’t think the lites titles should entitle you to a 1 digit number, I think those numbers should carry more prestige.
10/9/2020 5:49pm Edited Date/Time 10/9/2020 5:50pm
Robgvx wrote:
How does that work when a rider needs a number to bolster his image? Shouldn’t it be his name that he wants fans to know him...
How does that work when a rider needs a number to bolster his image? Shouldn’t it be his name that he wants fans to know him by?

How many motocross riders make money from number-based merchandise? They’re not even allowed to sell any at races.

Numbers should reflect status/ranking IMO. Makes it easier for new fans to identify the good guys too.

If all of the above is BS, why do AMA champs have to run #1?



This is how I feel as well. Riders should wear the number they earned, but if you want to find the truth, follow the money.
TheGetFresh
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10/9/2020 6:25pm
Robgvx wrote:
How does that work when a rider needs a number to bolster his image? Shouldn’t it be his name that he wants fans to know him...
How does that work when a rider needs a number to bolster his image? Shouldn’t it be his name that he wants fans to know him by?

How many motocross riders make money from number-based merchandise? They’re not even allowed to sell any at races.

Numbers should reflect status/ranking IMO. Makes it easier for new fans to identify the good guys too.

If all of the above is BS, why do AMA champs have to run #1?



This is how I feel as well. Riders should wear the number they earned, but if you want to find the truth, follow the money.
Yes. YES. FOLLOW THE MONEY. Teams don’t go racing if they can sell more bikes and make money. Fast kids go play golf instead of going racing if there’s no money in the sport. Branding is important to the sport and career numbers are used for branding.
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Robgvx
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10/10/2020 12:15am
Yes. YES. FOLLOW THE MONEY. Teams don’t go racing if they can sell more bikes and make money. Fast kids go play golf instead of going...
Yes. YES. FOLLOW THE MONEY. Teams don’t go racing if they can sell more bikes and make money. Fast kids go play golf instead of going racing if there’s no money in the sport. Branding is important to the sport and career numbers are used for branding.
..Unless they win and have to run #1
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sumdood
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10/10/2020 2:14am
Numbers are obsolete. It's 2020 and we still are expected to refer to a program to figure out who's on the bike? Initials with a 3rd...
Numbers are obsolete. It's 2020 and we still are expected to refer to a program to figure out who's on the bike?
Initials with a 3rd # to differentiate between those with common initials is so much simpler.
40-50 years later we have FB sites posting up pictures of the good old days and most have no idea who the riders are. It's just dumb. F*** tradition. Numbers were created back when teams used to have jerseys used year after year by different players.
Even here the common language is initials. ET3, JS7 etc. otherwise you have no idea who is 3 and who is 7.
Initials on the side plates and caricatures of their face on the front plate, With a big smile and sparkly white oversized teeth. If the numbers aren't going to mean jack shit anyway why not ?


"Most other sports players have a permanent number associated with them". Rossi is 46, Kobe Bryant is 24 etc. I have to go with Tarz483 on this one. Why would we want motocross to be like "Other" sports ? The old system of the number you run this year is where you finished last year was awesome and brutally honest. The lower your number, the more of a badass you are. The hardcore fans will know who's what number each year, we always could back then why wouldn't we be able to now ? I always thought it was fun to see the riders new numbers each year, and single digit numbers meant more than "Oh he won one year (could have been 9 years ago) and he wanted number 8 so he's number 8 "permanently" even though he might not have finished higher than 73rd since the year he won, Oh but wait there is no number 8 duh nevermind ...Huh I know this subject is like beating a dead horse and it will never go back to the time when their number on their bike meant more than just an identifying brand, but I'll never be convinced what we have now is a better system. The old system was honest, and unique to our sport. But fuck all that we want the average Johnny to know that #2 is McGrath.... oh wait, I meant Villopoto, or shit... wait a second, I mean Webb..... Ok blast away LaughingLaughing
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B Gotti
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10/10/2020 2:25am
Let the riders pick their own number. MXGP knows the value of branding.
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10/10/2020 5:15am
Assigning numbers based on last years results sounds good in theory but take the Des Nations as an example. It takes me 2 days of continually checking my program to keep reminding myself who everyone is. Plus its made worse because riders are using different gear designs than they normally would.
I like that the champ has be be number 1. Maybe top 3 or top 5 numbers are assigned then everyone else gets to choose what they want.
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Tarz483
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10/10/2020 7:27am
Numbers are obsolete. It's 2020 and we still are expected to refer to a program to figure out who's on the bike? Initials with a 3rd...
Numbers are obsolete. It's 2020 and we still are expected to refer to a program to figure out who's on the bike?
Initials with a 3rd # to differentiate between those with common initials is so much simpler.
40-50 years later we have FB sites posting up pictures of the good old days and most have no idea who the riders are. It's just dumb. F*** tradition. Numbers were created back when teams used to have jerseys used year after year by different players.
Even here the common language is initials. ET3, JS7 etc. otherwise you have no idea who is 3 and who is 7.
sumdood wrote:
Initials on the side plates and caricatures of their face on the front plate, With a big smile and sparkly white oversized teeth. If the numbers...
Initials on the side plates and caricatures of their face on the front plate, With a big smile and sparkly white oversized teeth. If the numbers aren't going to mean jack shit anyway why not ?


"Most other sports players have a permanent number associated with them". Rossi is 46, Kobe Bryant is 24 etc. I have to go with Tarz483 on this one. Why would we want motocross to be like "Other" sports ? The old system of the number you run this year is where you finished last year was awesome and brutally honest. The lower your number, the more of a badass you are. The hardcore fans will know who's what number each year, we always could back then why wouldn't we be able to now ? I always thought it was fun to see the riders new numbers each year, and single digit numbers meant more than "Oh he won one year (could have been 9 years ago) and he wanted number 8 so he's number 8 "permanently" even though he might not have finished higher than 73rd since the year he won, Oh but wait there is no number 8 duh nevermind ...Huh I know this subject is like beating a dead horse and it will never go back to the time when their number on their bike meant more than just an identifying brand, but I'll never be convinced what we have now is a better system. The old system was honest, and unique to our sport. But fuck all that we want the average Johnny to know that #2 is McGrath.... oh wait, I meant Villopoto, or shit... wait a second, I mean Webb..... Ok blast away LaughingLaughing
In my opinion it would also be cool even years later to see old photo's and see right away how they finished, Can you tell me right now what Place chad reed finished last year in the SX series? Or what place Marvin Finished last year?
OR what place either of them finished in any series in the past 5 years?
I cant but if they did numbers by their finish in the previous series we would all know that just by the glance of a picture.
It just adds something for the fans in my opinion, And the permanent number system helps out a very select few in my opinion and the ones it helps with branding are guys that are already famous and would be either way. Just my opinion I understand not everyone agrees and that's ok it makes it a fun subject to debate.
In the photo below we can quickly see that Eli finished 1st in the previous season, what place did Marvin #25 And Barcia #51 finish in that previous season? And how much more does Barcia make because he is #51 ? How much more do you think Marvin makes because he is number 25?
I know for sure Marvin has finished 2nd in a few series I would think that running #2 for those years would be better for his popularity.


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Johnny Depp
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10/10/2020 7:38am Edited Date/Time 10/10/2020 7:40am
"In my opinion it would also be cool even years later to see old photo's and see right away how they finished,"

It would be even better if we knew WHO they were. Initials FTW!
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Tarz483
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10/10/2020 7:41am
"In my opinion it would also be cool even years later to see old photo's and see right away how they finished," It would be even...
"In my opinion it would also be cool even years later to see old photo's and see right away how they finished,"

It would be even better if we knew WHO they were. Initials FTW!
Maybe numbers from previous season And initials Somewhere!
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TheGetFresh
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10/10/2020 8:28am
Numbers are obsolete. It's 2020 and we still are expected to refer to a program to figure out who's on the bike? Initials with a 3rd...
Numbers are obsolete. It's 2020 and we still are expected to refer to a program to figure out who's on the bike?
Initials with a 3rd # to differentiate between those with common initials is so much simpler.
40-50 years later we have FB sites posting up pictures of the good old days and most have no idea who the riders are. It's just dumb. F*** tradition. Numbers were created back when teams used to have jerseys used year after year by different players.
Even here the common language is initials. ET3, JS7 etc. otherwise you have no idea who is 3 and who is 7.
sumdood wrote:
Initials on the side plates and caricatures of their face on the front plate, With a big smile and sparkly white oversized teeth. If the numbers...
Initials on the side plates and caricatures of their face on the front plate, With a big smile and sparkly white oversized teeth. If the numbers aren't going to mean jack shit anyway why not ?


"Most other sports players have a permanent number associated with them". Rossi is 46, Kobe Bryant is 24 etc. I have to go with Tarz483 on this one. Why would we want motocross to be like "Other" sports ? The old system of the number you run this year is where you finished last year was awesome and brutally honest. The lower your number, the more of a badass you are. The hardcore fans will know who's what number each year, we always could back then why wouldn't we be able to now ? I always thought it was fun to see the riders new numbers each year, and single digit numbers meant more than "Oh he won one year (could have been 9 years ago) and he wanted number 8 so he's number 8 "permanently" even though he might not have finished higher than 73rd since the year he won, Oh but wait there is no number 8 duh nevermind ...Huh I know this subject is like beating a dead horse and it will never go back to the time when their number on their bike meant more than just an identifying brand, but I'll never be convinced what we have now is a better system. The old system was honest, and unique to our sport. But fuck all that we want the average Johnny to know that #2 is McGrath.... oh wait, I meant Villopoto, or shit... wait a second, I mean Webb..... Ok blast away LaughingLaughing
Tarz483 wrote:
In my opinion it would also be cool even years later to see old photo's and see right away how they finished, Can you tell me...
In my opinion it would also be cool even years later to see old photo's and see right away how they finished, Can you tell me right now what Place chad reed finished last year in the SX series? Or what place Marvin Finished last year?
OR what place either of them finished in any series in the past 5 years?
I cant but if they did numbers by their finish in the previous series we would all know that just by the glance of a picture.
It just adds something for the fans in my opinion, And the permanent number system helps out a very select few in my opinion and the ones it helps with branding are guys that are already famous and would be either way. Just my opinion I understand not everyone agrees and that's ok it makes it a fun subject to debate.
In the photo below we can quickly see that Eli finished 1st in the previous season, what place did Marvin #25 And Barcia #51 finish in that previous season? And how much more does Barcia make because he is #51 ? How much more do you think Marvin makes because he is number 25?
I know for sure Marvin has finished 2nd in a few series I would think that running #2 for those years would be better for his popularity.


Previous years finish adds nothing of value to racing. Anyone who follows the sport closely already knows who’s fast, and the casual viewer doesn’t care. To them whoever won the day’s race way the best on the day and whoever has the red plate is the guy to beat. Plus, you’ll end up with weird holes in the numbers when riders inevitably get injured and sit out rounds or the whole series. By last year’s results, #2, #4 and #6 would not even be on the track.
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Tarz483
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10/10/2020 2:05pm
sumdood wrote:
Initials on the side plates and caricatures of their face on the front plate, With a big smile and sparkly white oversized teeth. If the numbers...
Initials on the side plates and caricatures of their face on the front plate, With a big smile and sparkly white oversized teeth. If the numbers aren't going to mean jack shit anyway why not ?


"Most other sports players have a permanent number associated with them". Rossi is 46, Kobe Bryant is 24 etc. I have to go with Tarz483 on this one. Why would we want motocross to be like "Other" sports ? The old system of the number you run this year is where you finished last year was awesome and brutally honest. The lower your number, the more of a badass you are. The hardcore fans will know who's what number each year, we always could back then why wouldn't we be able to now ? I always thought it was fun to see the riders new numbers each year, and single digit numbers meant more than "Oh he won one year (could have been 9 years ago) and he wanted number 8 so he's number 8 "permanently" even though he might not have finished higher than 73rd since the year he won, Oh but wait there is no number 8 duh nevermind ...Huh I know this subject is like beating a dead horse and it will never go back to the time when their number on their bike meant more than just an identifying brand, but I'll never be convinced what we have now is a better system. The old system was honest, and unique to our sport. But fuck all that we want the average Johnny to know that #2 is McGrath.... oh wait, I meant Villopoto, or shit... wait a second, I mean Webb..... Ok blast away LaughingLaughing
Tarz483 wrote:
In my opinion it would also be cool even years later to see old photo's and see right away how they finished, Can you tell me...
In my opinion it would also be cool even years later to see old photo's and see right away how they finished, Can you tell me right now what Place chad reed finished last year in the SX series? Or what place Marvin Finished last year?
OR what place either of them finished in any series in the past 5 years?
I cant but if they did numbers by their finish in the previous series we would all know that just by the glance of a picture.
It just adds something for the fans in my opinion, And the permanent number system helps out a very select few in my opinion and the ones it helps with branding are guys that are already famous and would be either way. Just my opinion I understand not everyone agrees and that's ok it makes it a fun subject to debate.
In the photo below we can quickly see that Eli finished 1st in the previous season, what place did Marvin #25 And Barcia #51 finish in that previous season? And how much more does Barcia make because he is #51 ? How much more do you think Marvin makes because he is number 25?
I know for sure Marvin has finished 2nd in a few series I would think that running #2 for those years would be better for his popularity.


Previous years finish adds nothing of value to racing. Anyone who follows the sport closely already knows who’s fast, and the casual viewer doesn’t care. To...
Previous years finish adds nothing of value to racing. Anyone who follows the sport closely already knows who’s fast, and the casual viewer doesn’t care. To them whoever won the day’s race way the best on the day and whoever has the red plate is the guy to beat. Plus, you’ll end up with weird holes in the numbers when riders inevitably get injured and sit out rounds or the whole series. By last year’s results, #2, #4 and #6 would not even be on the track.
It still adds something in my opinion If someone gets hurt and comes back with a higher number even that adds some thing because its an instant reminder that they had a bad year or are coming back from injury. and if #2 #4 #6 are missing that wouldn't matter in my opinion. but we have also not had all the single digit numbers used for years I think the last to use #8 was Grant Langston?
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10/10/2020 2:24pm
Yes. YES. FOLLOW THE MONEY. Teams don’t go racing if they can sell more bikes and make money. Fast kids go play golf instead of going...
Yes. YES. FOLLOW THE MONEY. Teams don’t go racing if they can sell more bikes and make money. Fast kids go play golf instead of going racing if there’s no money in the sport. Branding is important to the sport and career numbers are used for branding.
Someone is making money on the branding. Bat and ball sports have used branding to a great degree of success, but these players don't play in a points based game.
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Johnny Depp
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10/10/2020 10:11pm
Rider ID system is not intended as a history lesson. ID the rider's the best possible way. Initials.
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10/11/2020 6:35am
You know it's off season when we start the number plate argument again. I mean, FFS, it's just a couple digits on a pice of plastic. Doesn't make one bit of difference to the racing.
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