Not buying it...

Related:
Create New Tag

4/16/2018 11:50 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/16/2018 11:53 AM

I need to preface this with, I don't believe Baker or his athletes are cheating...but someone is responsible for the failed test.

Listening to the Steve Matthes podcast on Brock Tickle...

Aldon mentions he did a google search of the substance and found "it doesn't stay in your system long" and "it wouldn't have been detectable for that long.."

Why was this something he added to the conversation?

Weigant and Matthes both go onto say, "I didnt' find that". This recently highlighted proverb comes comes to mind... 'Only the guilty flee where no man pursues.'

Jason Anderson also told Weigant that he has not been tested at a race all year. He was only tested once while at a restaurant randomly as a part of his year long watch (Skip to 3:20). That would have been outside of the half-life window of the substance (8.5 hours).

Anderson also mentioned "yea he takes this supplement stuff he gets at GNC but we are all looking for something" which does not align with what Aldon made it sound like. Again, not stating they are cheating, but they are looking for an edge.

I'm not one of those conspiracy nuts that thinks Aldon is pumping his athletes full of HGH or doping, but I do believe he maximizes their potential within the confines of the rule book. My main point here again is that someone is responsible for this failed test.

Speculating a bit, Brock doesn't appear to be someone who would go and do something that he wasn't instructed to do. Especially when he is under guidance from the most successful trainers in SX/MX history.

I really hope Brock retains his own attorneys (I assume he has already) and doesn't rely on the KTM legal team to fight for him. They are looking out for the best interest of the team and their trainer. Don't Baker has an exclusive contract with KTM for his training services (link here). I'm not sure if the RedBull KTM riders are required to work with Aldon Baker or not, but that may come into play.

Brock is on the hook for an entire year's salary for an incident like this. (Skip to 11:40).

Here are our options for what happened and what will result..

1. Brock knowingly or unknowingly took a supplement on his own that contained this substance.
Result: Brock is on the hook for 1 year's salary, meanwhile he will likely be unable to compete for 18 months. Meaning he will not have a salary. Dismissal from the team. Very unlikely to get another contract in the future.

2. Brock was instructed to take a substance by Aldon that he (Aldon) either knowingly or unknowingly contained that substance.
Result: Brock will file a lawsuit against Aldon Baker and/or RedBull KTM to cover damages to his career.

3. Aldon and/or Brock knowingly ingested the supplement that contained the banned substance knowing exactly its half-life but...took it a bit too late and it remained in his system too long. Or for whatever reason it remained in his system for longer than they anticipated.
Result: Major whoopsy...

4. WADA screwed up and there was in fact no substance in his body and the B test will reveal a false positive.
Result: In which case Brock will be forced to put his head down and forever be called a cheater by idiot fans.

I apologize for the book, I just don't see this going well in any scenario. Most likely scenario is we will never know what really happened...Brock will not be forced to pay out a years salary. He will not be dismissed from the team, but will not be re-signed by KTM. He will still be suspended for 18 months...from Feb 10th, 2018. Meaning if he can get something to ride he won't be back until 2020.

Now just imagine if Anderson and Marvin both were popped for this....

|

4/16/2018 11:56 AM

Good post. I am going with 3.

|

4/16/2018 11:59 AM

Just something I found on the internets. Photo

|

4/16/2018 12:05 PM

Bike Rat wrote:

Just something I found on the internets. Photo

Yea, I saw that earlier. I went to his instagram and follows etc because I wondered. But further research doesn't reveal what is in these supplements...If Aldon removes that post...it will become very suspicious.

|

4/16/2018 12:08 PM

Bike Rat wrote:

Just something I found on the internets. Photo

Anderson just put something on his insta today showing him taking this stuff and a whole drawer full of it at what appeared to be the baker factory.

|

4/16/2018 12:10 PM

I posted this in the other thread.

Half life is about 8-10 hours and about 20 or so hours after that, but a detectable amount I'm not sure.

That stuff above is basically overpriced junk.. You can buy everything in it and make your own for about 7 cents per serving It's legal last I checked about a year ago.

Synephrine has been questionable with WADA for years but remains legal, again last I checked.

|

4/16/2018 12:12 PM

tprice07 wrote:

Yea, I saw that earlier. I went to his instagram and follows etc because I wondered. But further research doesn't reveal what ...more

Why didnt you just google the label?

|

4/16/2018 12:14 PM

Excellent post and all the valid points. Whats sad today are the comments alone on any forum or social media that show how people process any news and how they then believe. None of us can change that unfortunately.

|

4/16/2018 12:16 PM

WADA is a freaking joke. They are testing for substances that aren't going to make a measurable difference in performance on a rider. What they failed him for is a substance that's readily available and is in most of the pre workouts I've seen. It would really have no difference than if he'd loaded up on caffeine before the race.

|

4/16/2018 12:19 PM

philG wrote:

Good post. I am going with 3.

Wrong.

They dont use half lifes. They use detectable.

|

4/16/2018 12:20 PM

Anderson sounds like he was trying to distance himself from the situation by throwing Tickle under the bus with the GNC comment.

|

4/16/2018 12:21 PM

Braaaphole wrote:

WADA is a freaking joke. They are testing for substances that aren't going to make a measurable difference in performance on a ...more

It does, and thats why WADA is considering putting caffeine BACK ON the list.

It already is in some other organizations. The NCAA probably the most recongnizable one.

|

4/16/2018 12:25 PM

All the "Good Shit" they used to be able to sell in your local vitamin shoppe, or GNC has all been banned.

This new shit like MindFX, and the like are just fancy caffeinated/B12-B6/niacin loaded powders.

My opinion is the WADA is a bit much for Moto, and SX. They're reaching pretty hard for this Broc Tickle dealio.

|

United States of America

4/16/2018 12:33 PM

He cheated, he has now been banned from racing! Now the burden of proof is on him. He ate something, what was it that day? If a product had that banned substance in it but didn’t have it on the label....whew serious lawsuit!

If he didn’t eat something, they messed up his blood.....proving that is gonna be tough!

|

4/16/2018 12:33 PM

Camp332 wrote:

All the "Good Shit" they used to be able to sell in your local vitamin shoppe, or GNC has all been banned.

This new shit ...more

WADA is a bullshit organization. . . I could get on board if they were finding evidence of legitimate PED's such as steroids or blood doping, but this petty ADD medicine and nasal spray are just very fringe violations. . . and not deserving of an 18 month penalty, let alone a 4 year ban from competition. SX/MX are suckers for getting them involved.

|

4/16/2018 12:34 PM

Camp332 wrote:

All the "Good Shit" they used to be able to sell in your local vitamin shoppe, or GNC has all been banned.

This new shit ...more

Not really considering all the early versions of DMAA and the new versions of DMHA are illegal to sell in a lot of countries including the newer
1,5 the Hexane version which is 1,5 DMHA

1,6 DMHA is hard to find right now because it is too new.

The H in this is for Heptane, which has 7 molecules,

|

4/16/2018 12:36 PM

Keep in mind that, I believe I read, the substance reported to be at issue is only banned in competition, not banned from use altogether under the CODE. I'm not sure how "in competition" may be framed apart from the day of event itself, but the time in the body is an issue with bans limited to in competition.

That said, and I don't have time to look at the Code, but you may have to establish the use was for reasons other than performance enhancement,

|

Twitter: @ftemoto
Instagram: @mstusiak

4/16/2018 12:37 PM

Good points.

I also kind of wonder if KTM bosses will rethink having entire teams coached/trained by the same person. What if Aldon made a mistake and he gave all of the riders a pill he wasn't 100% certain on. And what if several of those riders get tested and fail. You would be looking at an entire team suspended.

This is a single point of failure and not something you really ever want. If Aldon makes a mistake, or one of his helpers fucks up you could tear a whole team down.

|

4/16/2018 12:37 PM

Camp332 wrote:

All the "Good Shit" they used to be able to sell in your local vitamin shoppe, or GNC has all been banned.

This new shit ...more

IWreckALot wrote:

WADA is a bullshit organization. . . I could get on board if they were finding evidence of legitimate PED's such as steroids ...more

Then why are 99% of asthma meds banned?

The stuff hasnt been indicated for nasal spray in WELL OVER 3 Decades, and its not an ADD med. SMDH.

|

4/16/2018 12:42 PM

The plot thickens..

|

"A link is only as long as your longest strong chain"

4/16/2018 12:43 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/16/2018 12:54 PM

Braaaphole wrote:

WADA is a freaking joke. They are testing for substances that aren't going to make a measurable difference in performance on a ...more

Asimo wrote:

It does, and thats why WADA is considering putting caffeine BACK ON the list.

It already is in some other organizations. The ...more

Have you ever used methylhexanamine before? I have used preworkouts with and without it numerous times for several years. There's no discernible difference between the ones I've used related to methylhexanamine. This isn't even an ingredient I even look for in my preworkouts. I just notice that sometimes it's there.
As far as caffeine, what advantage would it give a racer? Some energy, sure. However, the caffeine will be processed and metabolized by the body far before the additional energy boost it gives is needed for an athlete at that level. I'll go as far as to say that any advantage it could possibly give you would be nearly impossible to quantify.
Take Broc for example. Run 2 25 minute motos while keeping as many variables the same as possible. Run them on different days, same time of day and same meals before each one. However, take methylhexanamine and/or caffeine before one of the motos. Check lap times, if you saw a difference between the 2, it would be so minimal or non existent that you could never say it's because of what he took. It would be easier to say the difference in the dirt, or just riding a touch better on that day, or whatever else.

Also, knowing that he's on a very strict diet and having done the same myself in the past, one could argue that carb loading produces just as good or better benefits and that's not illegal.

And just because it's banned in the NCAA doesn't mean it's right. They use a lot of the same standards as WADA. WADA does serve a purpose, however I don't agree with a lot of what's on their list of banned substances. Anything truly performance enhancing, sure. However, prove that it actually enhances ones athletic abilities.
NCAA testing is an absolute joke too. The athletes know the testing schedule and cycle accordingly. It's not unusual to see a top NCAA football player to put on 15+ lbs of lean muscle during the off season. That's not natural.
It's also not natural for a 17 or 18 year old kid to cleanly squat 500+lbs. There;s no shortage of steroid use in football and it makes too much money for them to risk cracking down on it.

|

4/16/2018 12:44 PM

TXDirt wrote:

Good points.

I also kind of wonder if KTM bosses will rethink having entire teams coached/trained by the same person. What if ...more

Interesting tidbit from the podcast as well....Trainers/coaches sign an agreement with WADA or the FIM with regard to the holding them responsible. I can't remember where exactly the term is.

|

4/16/2018 12:46 PM

FreshTopEnd wrote:

Keep in mind that, I believe I read, the substance reported to be at issue is only banned in competition, not banned from use ...more

I thought it didn’t matter, an athlete just can’t have any of those banned substances in his system at anytime?

He should post up what he ate and why!

|

4/16/2018 12:53 PM

Asimo wrote:

Not really considering all the early versions of DMAA and the new versions of DMHA are illegal to sell in a lot of countries ...more

I definitely appreciate your knowledge on the topic, and you are teaching me a bit of the science behind it. I know from personal experience that the pre-workout formulas of 8-10 years ago were pretty intense. Nowadays I think the effects of today's preworkout formulas are mainly placebo.

|

United States of America

4/16/2018 12:54 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/16/2018 12:54 PM

The only part that will make it interesting will be if someone gets thrown under the bus... If a racer is unspokenly "required" to take certain substances ordered by an exclusive team trainer, tsightf in a spectacular way.. might even set some precident for other sports....

How far back will they test? Will titles get stripped?

It could get ugly.... And at the worst possible time in our industry for sales...

|

www.bettercallsaul.com
Die Antwoord

4/16/2018 12:59 PM

gt80rider wrote:

The only part that will make it interesting will be if someone gets thrown under the bus... If a racer is unspokenly ...more

The half life is too short for them to run and test everyone now. Being that he got busted, anyone who was taking the same thing as Broc has likely stopped immediately. Unless they were unknowingly taking it, then it will get law suit crazy.

|

4/16/2018 1:00 PM

FreshTopEnd wrote:

Keep in mind that, I believe I read, the substance reported to be at issue is only banned in competition, not banned from use ...more

kkawboy14 wrote:

I thought it didn’t matter, an athlete just can’t have any of those banned substances in his system at anytime?

He should ...more

It's a wonderful thing, actually, that the Code is so easily available and pretty easy to read, both from WADA and as incorporated into the FIM rules. It's less wonderful that people don't bother to read it before having opinions.

|

Twitter: @ftemoto
Instagram: @mstusiak

4/16/2018 1:08 PM

Weigandt didn't do good research either on that podcast.

There are numereous versions of "DMAA", all labeled as 1,3, 1,4, DMAA and also the newer 1,5 DMHA(Hexane) and 1,6 DMHA (Heptane) versions with 7 molecules.

I like Weege but WADA and USADA isnt going to tell athletes where the stuff is found. You can buy it as Raws from China. You can buy it in 100s of retail products.

They are 100% going to hang up the phone when some dumb athlete calls and says "What is this stuff found in"

|

4/16/2018 1:17 PM

WADA states the following "MHA is prohibited In-Competition only as a stimulant under section S6.b."

That leads me to believe it is legal for training?

|

4/16/2018 1:20 PM

Unfortunate situation. Bummer. I feel there should be some level of testing in our sport, but more importantly the ruling body (AMA and all their lenders at FELD/ ME) need to come together on writing a fucking rulebook and actually adhere to it!

Drugs are bad, mkay. Black flag tickle for a week or two, but anything more than a one season ban would be incredibly difficult to come back from, IMO. Only in this sport.

This is kind of a quandary because at the same time I don't take this too seriously... Any privateer can snoot a line of adderall and wash it down with nasal steroids, doubt they'd be able to hang with RD or RV on a 30+2

|