Latest Rumor/Fact: No Suzuki Factory Team in MXGP and MX2 for 2018

ML512
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9/23/2017 10:51am
MXMattii wrote:
I probably don't understand your statement, but in 2015 Geico did the Gariboldi engines too. With results because Gasjer became world champion MX2.
You know, I asked GIECO's engine guy about that before...I was told they never supplied them with engines. From my understanding what happened was they sent an engine the year before to Japan for their engineers to look through, and that spec made it's way to Gariboldi the following year.
ML512
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9/23/2017 10:54am
TeamGreen wrote:
ROI: Return On Investment Is that simple. They had 3 Factory Racing programs in 2017, that I can recall for this discussion. Europe Japan USA In...
ROI: Return On Investment

Is that simple. They had 3 Factory Racing programs in 2017, that I can recall for this discussion.

Europe
Japan
USA

In Europe they had a Factory Program to support a 19 race series. That program is EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE & has to show a DIRECT BENEFIT to Suzuki's "bottom-line". That means they need to see that the expense of running a race program is beneficial to their bike sales. So, at the end of the year, someone's asking the question(s): "What do we have to show for all the money we've spent on the GPs this year? How many bikes did we sell due to this effort?"

Same goes for Japan: a Ten Race Series that also, to be fair, has huge R&D benefits and it's their "home series"; but, still...it costs A TON of money to support that series...day to day costs in Japan are insane for a team...things we take for granted like affordable travel (think fuel), lodging, food...those things are astronomically expensive in Japan. So, again, does the expense have a "Return On Investment" that makes sense or is reasonably reflected in their bottom-line?

Then there's the USA: here we have 18 SX races (AMA SX + MEC) & 12 NatIonal Motocross races. 30 races for a budget that's not a whole lot more than what you'd spend in Europe or Japan. Why isn't it "a lot more money"? For starters, JGR has a solid sponsorship package that pays for things that Suzuki paid for in other programs, in-house technical support to off-set what would usually be a Suzuki corporate expense, an unbelievably better amortization schedule for the dollars/yen spent, vastly greater media exposure per dollar/yen (more Magazines and On-Line media, Major Network coverage of SX & sports network coverage of MX...multiple pod-casts...etc.) and...here's the big one...they sell a helluva lot more bikes here.

So, there it is. And...Yes...

It is sad. Suzuki's history in Motocross GPs is paramount. They are almost single handedly responsible for the "Japanese Invasion" of MX-GPs...well, if you're a Suzuki fan you might see it that way...
Roger
Joel
Etc.
So, their absence will be felt and it's something to ponder; but, I'm not going join the fray of Nay-Sayers due to the simple fact that I don't think the sky is falling. This is a corporate financial decision made by a notoriously conservative Japanese corporation (LTD).

Meanwhile, other manufacturers are doubling down and I have a sneaking suspicion we may hear about a new blue team in Europe real soon, too.

Edit: I'd put the US Nationals race qty (12) down as the number of races for the GPs...NOT!
Manny, just a note for your top discussion. The GP schedule is 19 rounds and the riders on the teams also competed in multiple national championship rounds...not sure on that number though between the different riders and series they did on off-weekends from the GPs.
flymoto
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9/23/2017 10:55am
what I have heard, apparently from a good source....

Suzuki will continue to supply with bikes, parts etc they just will not financially support the team. So The team must find a sponsor for funding by a certain date (supposedly before the new year) Or else they're pretty much screwed.

If this is true, I still believe it can be recovered. It will be sad to loose Suzuki altogether. It's a vicious circle with them.

I do believe a production class in mxgp would be good. Keep MXGP. Ditch mx2, keep the rules tight, allow a pipe and some suspension mods. We don't need fast bikes to have good racing. Teams could be run on a low budget, the manufactures would have to continually have to develop their bikes in order to stay competitive. We probably would still see ktm dominance but I'm sure it would solve many issues!
St Ann More
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9/23/2017 12:05pm Edited Date/Time 9/23/2017 12:40pm
ATKpilot99 wrote:
Not surprising. There has got to be little to no ROI in motocross and when you combine that with Luongo's outrageous fees there you have it.
This has much more to do with Suzuki and Everts.

Like with RCH, no title sponsor and the OEM not wanting to stump up!

Easy to blame Luongo though!

The Shop

philG
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9/23/2017 12:16pm
TeamGreen wrote:
ROI: Return On Investment Is that simple. They had 3 Factory Racing programs in 2017, that I can recall for this discussion. Europe Japan USA In...
ROI: Return On Investment

Is that simple. They had 3 Factory Racing programs in 2017, that I can recall for this discussion.

Europe
Japan
USA

In Europe they had a Factory Program to support a 19 race series. That program is EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE & has to show a DIRECT BENEFIT to Suzuki's "bottom-line". That means they need to see that the expense of running a race program is beneficial to their bike sales. So, at the end of the year, someone's asking the question(s): "What do we have to show for all the money we've spent on the GPs this year? How many bikes did we sell due to this effort?"

Same goes for Japan: a Ten Race Series that also, to be fair, has huge R&D benefits and it's their "home series"; but, still...it costs A TON of money to support that series...day to day costs in Japan are insane for a team...things we take for granted like affordable travel (think fuel), lodging, food...those things are astronomically expensive in Japan. So, again, does the expense have a "Return On Investment" that makes sense or is reasonably reflected in their bottom-line?

Then there's the USA: here we have 18 SX races (AMA SX + MEC) & 12 NatIonal Motocross races. 30 races for a budget that's not a whole lot more than what you'd spend in Europe or Japan. Why isn't it "a lot more money"? For starters, JGR has a solid sponsorship package that pays for things that Suzuki paid for in other programs, in-house technical support to off-set what would usually be a Suzuki corporate expense, an unbelievably better amortization schedule for the dollars/yen spent, vastly greater media exposure per dollar/yen (more Magazines and On-Line media, Major Network coverage of SX & sports network coverage of MX...multiple pod-casts...etc.) and...here's the big one...they sell a helluva lot more bikes here.

So, there it is. And...Yes...

It is sad. Suzuki's history in Motocross GPs is paramount. They are almost single handedly responsible for the "Japanese Invasion" of MX-GPs...well, if you're a Suzuki fan you might see it that way...
Roger
Joel
Etc.
So, their absence will be felt and it's something to ponder; but, I'm not going join the fray of Nay-Sayers due to the simple fact that I don't think the sky is falling. This is a corporate financial decision made by a notoriously conservative Japanese corporation (LTD).

Meanwhile, other manufacturers are doubling down and I have a sneaking suspicion we may hear about a new blue team in Europe real soon, too.

Edit: I'd put the US Nationals race qty (12) down as the number of races for the GPs...NOT!
ML512 wrote:
Manny, just a note for your top discussion. The GP schedule is 19 rounds and the riders on the teams also competed in multiple national championship...
Manny, just a note for your top discussion. The GP schedule is 19 rounds and the riders on the teams also competed in multiple national championship rounds...not sure on that number though between the different riders and series they did on off-weekends from the GPs.
So as ML512 says, the GP boys do 19 rounds , and their own national series ( some do 2 or 3) for their budget , but most importantly, since the mid 80's there have been no factory bikes in the US , only Factory Teams, the manufacturers can only run Factory bikes in GP's , because the rules permit it, so there is zero ROI in terms of development in the US , its purely sales. Only in GP's can you develop bikes for next years models.

Suzuki have not pulled out, what they have said is that will not solely fund the team, which is not the same thing , Stefan Everts is the team owner , and Suzuki will supply him with bikes and parts , what Everts needs to do is find a Title sponsor to underwrite and pay for it.

From what i have been told, Bas Vaesen and Stribos were both bringing money to the team, Vaessen has decided to leave, and they did not want to retain Stribos, so they lost 2 revenue streams right there , maybe with nothing to replace it and Suzuki said enough..

As i have said before, Everts seems to have issues, he was outed by KTM, and had to buy his way in at Suzuki, a despite having riders who are capable of podiums, has not got anyone on board as a title sponsor .. and that is worrying.

There is still time for Suzuki to place those bikes elsewhere, which may be an option.
steed 2.0
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9/23/2017 12:43pm Edited Date/Time 9/23/2017 1:05pm
Fact of the matter is the bold engineer's that changed the Moto world are mostly retired now. Over 40+ years ago this upstart company made history...
Fact of the matter is the bold engineer's that changed the Moto world are mostly retired now. Over 40+ years ago this upstart company made history. There are not a lot of pioneer's left in the sport right now, Alta comes to mind.

They must develop a stronger brand identity and stuck with it for awhile and not switch back and forth all the time,
their road racing division looks too Yamahish, I have no idea where they stand for to be honest...
I think now with two privately owned semi factory teams It will feel even more gaotic than it already is
NorCal 50+
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9/23/2017 1:01pm
Manny, you said Suzuki sells a lot more bikes here than in Japan, but if I am looking at this right, they sold about twice as many bikes in Japan than US and Canada combined in fiscal 2016:
This is dirt and street, so think what a small number of dirt bikes they sell here. But looks like they gained a lot in 2017 compared with 2016:

Suzuki sales numbers:

First number: FY2016 Result
Second number: FY2017 Disclosed Value
Third number: FY2019 Target

Automobile
Japan 639,000 645,000 700,000
Europe 245,000 267,000 280,000
Asia 1,870,000 1,983,000 2,200,000
Others 164,000 176,000 220,000
Total 2,918,000 3,071,000 3,400,000

Motorcycle
Japan 62,000 67,000 70,000
Europe 45,000 53,000 70,000
North America 32,000 40,000 60,000
Asia 1,039,000 1,073,000 1,500,000
Others 190,000 186,000 300,000
Total 1,367,000 1,419,000 2,000,000
steed 2.0
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9/23/2017 1:23pm Edited Date/Time 9/23/2017 1:25pm
NorCal 50+ wrote:
Manny, you said Suzuki sells a lot more bikes here than in Japan, but if I am looking at this right, they sold about twice as...
Manny, you said Suzuki sells a lot more bikes here than in Japan, but if I am looking at this right, they sold about twice as many bikes in Japan than US and Canada combined in fiscal 2016:
This is dirt and street, so think what a small number of dirt bikes they sell here. But looks like they gained a lot in 2017 compared with 2016:

Suzuki sales numbers:

First number: FY2016 Result
Second number: FY2017 Disclosed Value
Third number: FY2019 Target

Automobile
Japan 639,000 645,000 700,000
Europe 245,000 267,000 280,000
Asia 1,870,000 1,983,000 2,200,000
Others 164,000 176,000 220,000
Total 2,918,000 3,071,000 3,400,000

Motorcycle
Japan 62,000 67,000 70,000
Europe 45,000 53,000 70,000
North America 32,000 40,000 60,000
Asia 1,039,000 1,073,000 1,500,000
Others 190,000 186,000 300,000
Total 1,367,000 1,419,000 2,000,000
They sell a lot of mopeds/small displacement motorcycles in Asia,
it's a little vague... sometimes only a license is sold to a 3rd party
TeamGreen
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9/23/2017 1:39pm
1st off..."12 rounds" for Europe was a typo. My brain put the US Nationals number in there. Doh! It was VERY EARLY & I was flying home...after a night it on the town.

As for how many "bikes" are sold by Suzuki in various markets...

In the USA it's GSXRs, 'Busas, Cruisers and plenty atvs & bikes that are bigger, more expensive and waaaay more profitable (per unit) than all those SCOOTERS they sell in Jaoan and Asia. Hence, the point I was making as to "why" they're spending money on racing here.

We have 19 models in the $10-15+K range here.
Then there's plenty more in the $8-9K range including the RMZ.
Not to mention that they're getting $6-7K for a coupl'a dual sports that're nothing but PURE PROFIT...for well over a decade.

In those other markets, the vast majority of their sells appear to be on VERY SMALL displacement bikes and scooters that're in a much lower range of revenue and profit (assumed). In Japan they look to be holding their own...but...how're the "other guys doing"?
TeamGreen
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9/23/2017 1:43pm
Fact of the matter is the bold engineer's that changed the Moto world are mostly retired now. Over 40+ years ago this upstart company made history...
Fact of the matter is the bold engineer's that changed the Moto world are mostly retired now. Over 40+ years ago this upstart company made history. There are not a lot of pioneer's left in the sport right now, Alta comes to mind.

If ya think about it...

Twas over 50 years ago...damn!
philG
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9/23/2017 1:50pm
I dont know on what planet bikes build and sell themselves for free, but its not this one .

Granted , there are no development dollars going into those bikes, but they still have to be made, built and shipped, and the dealer in price wont be any less.

The profit is scooters is huge, because they are very low tech, and can be easily produced locally,which i believe they are in Asian markets, and they sell shit loads . In Europe, the Superbike market, is on its arse, its all low tech, low cost, middleweight bikes that are selling, along with big adventure stuff and 'retro ' stuff. Triumph are selling Bobbers like they are going out of fashion.
9/23/2017 1:53pm
MXMattii wrote:
I probably don't understand your statement, but in 2015 Geico did the Gariboldi engines too. With results because Gasjer became world champion MX2.
ML512 wrote:
You know, I asked GIECO's engine guy about that before...I was told they never supplied them with engines. From my understanding what happened was they sent...
You know, I asked GIECO's engine guy about that before...I was told they never supplied them with engines. From my understanding what happened was they sent an engine the year before to Japan for their engineers to look through, and that spec made it's way to Gariboldi the following year.
It was always in the air that Geico supplied engines to Tonkov (Esta Motorsports I believe) in 2013 which was the argument of why he got fast all of a sudden.

Is this true or was this just a rumour?
9/23/2017 2:01pm Edited Date/Time 9/23/2017 2:06pm
TeamGreen wrote:
1st off..."12 rounds" for Europe was a typo. My brain put the US Nationals number in there. Doh! It was VERY EARLY & I was flying...
1st off..."12 rounds" for Europe was a typo. My brain put the US Nationals number in there. Doh! It was VERY EARLY & I was flying home...after a night it on the town.

As for how many "bikes" are sold by Suzuki in various markets...

In the USA it's GSXRs, 'Busas, Cruisers and plenty atvs & bikes that are bigger, more expensive and waaaay more profitable (per unit) than all those SCOOTERS they sell in Jaoan and Asia. Hence, the point I was making as to "why" they're spending money on racing here.

We have 19 models in the $10-15+K range here.
Then there's plenty more in the $8-9K range including the RMZ.
Not to mention that they're getting $6-7K for a coupl'a dual sports that're nothing but PURE PROFIT...for well over a decade.

In those other markets, the vast majority of their sells appear to be on VERY SMALL displacement bikes and scooters that're in a much lower range of revenue and profit (assumed). In Japan they look to be holding their own...but...how're the "other guys doing"?
pretty much the same over here ...
smallest are the 125 models for those who just got licensed for a road bike , special entry class

Like supersport models , 125 , 750,1000 and 1300 hayabusa .Street models pretty much same line up with a 125 entry and after that 600, 700 and 1000 models

MX bikes only RMZ 250 and 450

18 bikes in 10K and up
average 5K for a 125 model , all other models between 7 and 10 K



best selling motorbike in 2016 world wide is a Honda 125 scooter btw
steed 2.0
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9/23/2017 2:12pm Edited Date/Time 9/23/2017 2:13pm
TeamGreen wrote:
1st off..."12 rounds" for Europe was a typo. My brain put the US Nationals number in there. Doh! It was VERY EARLY & I was flying...
1st off..."12 rounds" for Europe was a typo. My brain put the US Nationals number in there. Doh! It was VERY EARLY & I was flying home...after a night it on the town.

As for how many "bikes" are sold by Suzuki in various markets...

In the USA it's GSXRs, 'Busas, Cruisers and plenty atvs & bikes that are bigger, more expensive and waaaay more profitable (per unit) than all those SCOOTERS they sell in Jaoan and Asia. Hence, the point I was making as to "why" they're spending money on racing here.

We have 19 models in the $10-15+K range here.
Then there's plenty more in the $8-9K range including the RMZ.
Not to mention that they're getting $6-7K for a coupl'a dual sports that're nothing but PURE PROFIT...for well over a decade.

In those other markets, the vast majority of their sells appear to be on VERY SMALL displacement bikes and scooters that're in a much lower range of revenue and profit (assumed). In Japan they look to be holding their own...but...how're the "other guys doing"?
and dirt bike numbers are also not always accurate (not shown in this list)
I know a few high volume sellers in Europe who get their bikes via America by Parallel Imports / Gray Market
malachi177
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9/23/2017 2:42pm Edited Date/Time 9/23/2017 2:51pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Ok, so one guy bought a rmz

Everyone else didn't, yet they seem bothered Suzuki are getting out of the sport. Time to move on people.
Bought a new '14 RMZ250 in early '15 for my son to race. He was off of it for well over a year due to a serious crash, but has started riding again. It's been bulletproof with over 60hrs on it. They are a quality bike. It sucks with what's happening with the Euro team but I'm sure we'll get a better understanding as time goes on. I will be purchasing the new '18 RMZ next summer because of brand loyalty and their reliability.

All this talk about Suzuki hurting for money is laughable. The Marine division for example...Suzuki four stroke outboards are one of, if not the best and most reliable on the market. I live on an island and there's a shit tonne of Zook powered boats around here. It's the brand of choice for almost all the fishing guides here.Hell, I bought one last year....and guess what, it's been bulletproof. The one thing Suzuki does need to work on....it's their marketing division. It sucks, their product does not.
9/23/2017 2:46pm
suzuki motorcycle sales dropped with 40% in last 4 years worlwide ... same time the automobile sales went up 15%
9/23/2017 2:53pm Edited Date/Time 9/23/2017 2:54pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Ok, so one guy bought a rmz

Everyone else didn't, yet they seem bothered Suzuki are getting out of the sport. Time to move on people.
malachi177 wrote:
Bought a new '14 RMZ250 in early '15 for my son to race. He was off of it for well over a year due to a...
Bought a new '14 RMZ250 in early '15 for my son to race. He was off of it for well over a year due to a serious crash, but has started riding again. It's been bulletproof with over 60hrs on it. They are a quality bike. It sucks with what's happening with the Euro team but I'm sure we'll get a better understanding as time goes on. I will be purchasing the new '18 RMZ next summer because of brand loyalty and their reliability.

All this talk about Suzuki hurting for money is laughable. The Marine division for example...Suzuki four stroke outboards are one of, if not the best and most reliable on the market. I live on an island and there's a shit tonne of Zook powered boats around here. It's the brand of choice for almost all the fishing guides here.Hell, I bought one last year....and guess what, it's been bulletproof. The one thing Suzuki does need to work on....it's their marketing division. It sucks, their product does not.
I bought a new '14 rmz450 in '15 as well. It has been a great bike, wouldn't mind trading it in for an '18 down the line.
Bruce372
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9/23/2017 3:04pm
176 opinions in this thread, and only 3 of us are modern Suzuki owners.
block75
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9/23/2017 3:05pm
Gariboldi Honda next year with official technical support from Geico Honda.

Too hard to contain. Won't happen
MXMattii wrote:
I probably don't understand your statement, but in 2015 Geico did the Gariboldi engines too. With results because Gasjer became world champion MX2.
If it's technical support from Gieco in regards to engines (if that's what your sayin) it wouldn't be that hard to contain considering how much they document almost everything that is done to engines / bikes in general these days, it's wouldn't be hard for them to just email the blueprint notes / specs to Gariboldi for them build it and from there they just tweak it to suit their rider during testing.
MXMattii
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9/23/2017 3:25pm Edited Date/Time 9/23/2017 3:31pm
MXMattii wrote:
I probably don't understand your statement, but in 2015 Geico did the Gariboldi engines too. With results because Gasjer became world champion MX2.
ML512 wrote:
You know, I asked GIECO's engine guy about that before...I was told they never supplied them with engines. From my understanding what happened was they sent...
You know, I asked GIECO's engine guy about that before...I was told they never supplied them with engines. From my understanding what happened was they sent an engine the year before to Japan for their engineers to look through, and that spec made it's way to Gariboldi the following year.
Makes sense! Thanks for the heads-up.
steed 2.0
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9/23/2017 4:01pm Edited Date/Time 9/23/2017 4:30pm
I bought a new '14 rmz450 in '15 as well. It has been a great bike, wouldn't mind trading it in for an '18 down the...
I bought a new '14 rmz450 in '15 as well. It has been a great bike, wouldn't mind trading it in for an '18 down the line.
All the bikes are really close these days ... It's just how you setup the bike, some people make too much fuss about the shootout so what is left, do you feel connected with a brand (same with the gear vendors etc.)... I don't see it so negitive Honda HRC is back and picked up de boxing gloves and goes after KTM for the leadership in the off road division first test case Dakar 2018...
9/23/2017 5:58pm
In Japan, it wouldnt be the first time that Suzuki decided to put most of its effort into SRF, their satellite team rather than the regular factory team. Team SRF stands for "Suzuki Racing Forum". I figure this is what they are probably doing again.
9/24/2017 1:42am
F.B wrote:
The new Gariboldi Honda team next season and Geico in 19.
Gariboldi Honda next year with official technical support from Geico Honda.

Too hard to contain. Won't happen
It will, dude, it will.
9/24/2017 1:45am
F.B wrote:
The new Gariboldi Honda team next season and Geico in 19.
Gariboldi Honda next year with official technical support from Geico Honda.

crusty_xx wrote:
That's a pretty good deal for him. I think he has a very good shot at winning the title if he gets the bike dialed in...
That's a pretty good deal for him. I think he has a very good shot at winning the title if he gets the bike dialed in nicely

What will his brother do though? And Pichon and Vaessen?
Vaessen is rumored to be Lawrence s teamate in 2018.
Pichon will start his own thing with the precious help of his father...
roninho
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9/24/2017 4:45am
Bruce372 wrote:
176 opinions in this thread, and only 3 of us are modern Suzuki owners.
Which seems like a good reason for Suzuki to re-think their strategy for dirt bikes....
es337
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9/24/2017 10:03pm
mfgs are moving to dump the 250 class so kids can jump from the 85 to the 450
philG
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9/25/2017 12:50am
Vaessen is rumored to be Lawrence s teamate in 2018.
Pichon will start his own thing with the precious help of his father...
Vaessen has lots of money, he can buy a seat anywhere.
Robgvx
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9/25/2017 2:15am
Vaessen is rumored to be Lawrence s teamate in 2018.
Pichon will start his own thing with the precious help of his father...
philG wrote:
Vaessen has lots of money, he can buy a seat anywhere.
Are you really a factory rider if you've paid for the privilege?
Jrewing
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9/25/2017 2:26am
Vaessen is rumored to be Lawrence s teamate in 2018.
Pichon will start his own thing with the precious help of his father...
philG wrote:
Vaessen has lots of money, he can buy a seat anywhere.
Robgvx wrote:
Are you really a factory rider if you've paid for the privilege?
No.

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