New factory showa hybrid fork

Edited Date/Time 2/8/2016 6:25am
As anyone heard any news on the new factory hybrid showa forks. I saw Steve from racer x mention something about them in an article. One leg of the fork uses an air chamber. The other side uses a coil spring. Apparently js7 and bb4 really like it. Is Weimer running this fork as well?
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hillbilly
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2/7/2016 6:34am
I'd hate to be a rider today trying to figure out which is best. I guess a dyno would give a decent sheet on how it does but the feel you want or are use to could be elusive.

And, if you are sidelined by injury for a time while technology is running away ,coming back and climbing on a totally new design could cause another crash.
keith101
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2/7/2016 6:45am
ML512 might know the answer to this question, but how are the Pro teams dealing with the air pressure buildup with air forks over the course of a moto? This area seems to be the Achilles heal of air forks.
BobPA
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2/7/2016 6:49am
keith101 wrote:
[b]ML512[/b] might know the answer to this question, but how are the Pro teams dealing with the air pressure buildup with air forks over the course...
ML512 might know the answer to this question, but how are the Pro teams dealing with the air pressure buildup with air forks over the course of a moto? This area seems to be the Achilles heal of air forks.
I going to guess they use nitrogen? Or possibly something with simaliar properties

The Shop

Crush
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2/7/2016 6:54am Edited Date/Time 2/7/2016 6:56am
Read half air half coil spring?

So... Half a 2011 cr250 fork and half a new one?
Canerat
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2/7/2016 9:23am
keith101 wrote:
[b]ML512[/b] might know the answer to this question, but how are the Pro teams dealing with the air pressure buildup with air forks over the course...
ML512 might know the answer to this question, but how are the Pro teams dealing with the air pressure buildup with air forks over the course of a moto? This area seems to be the Achilles heal of air forks.
BobPA wrote:
I going to guess they use nitrogen? Or possibly something with simaliar properties
Yup, nitrogen is a Inert gas and is very stable
I cant see why anyone would not be using Nitrogen is their forks.

After all rear shock bladders have been using Nitrogen for yeeeears...
keith101
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2/7/2016 9:44am
keith101 wrote:
[b]ML512[/b] might know the answer to this question, but how are the Pro teams dealing with the air pressure buildup with air forks over the course...
ML512 might know the answer to this question, but how are the Pro teams dealing with the air pressure buildup with air forks over the course of a moto? This area seems to be the Achilles heal of air forks.
BobPA wrote:
I going to guess they use nitrogen? Or possibly something with simaliar properties
Canerat wrote:
Yup, nitrogen is a Inert gas and is very stable I cant see why anyone would not be using Nitrogen is their forks. After all rear...
Yup, nitrogen is a Inert gas and is very stable
I cant see why anyone would not be using Nitrogen is their forks.

After all rear shock bladders have been using Nitrogen for yeeeears...
That's probably true and have heard of nitrogen being used, but then why do all suspension shops call for regular air for the average Joe knowing that everyone complains of air pressure increasing? Seems they've have less ppl complaining.
Canerat
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2/7/2016 9:53am Edited Date/Time 2/7/2016 9:55am
BobPA wrote:
I going to guess they use nitrogen? Or possibly something with simaliar properties
Canerat wrote:
Yup, nitrogen is a Inert gas and is very stable I cant see why anyone would not be using Nitrogen is their forks. After all rear...
Yup, nitrogen is a Inert gas and is very stable
I cant see why anyone would not be using Nitrogen is their forks.

After all rear shock bladders have been using Nitrogen for yeeeears...
keith101 wrote:
That's probably true and have heard of nitrogen being used, but then why do all suspension shops call for regular air for the average Joe knowing...
That's probably true and have heard of nitrogen being used, but then why do all suspension shops call for regular air for the average Joe knowing that everyone complains of air pressure increasing? Seems they've have less ppl complaining.
Regular air is convenient for the average dude and can be adjusted track side for rider preference. The same cannot be said about Nitrogen unless one is prepared to purchase or put a deposit down on the bottle and lug it to the track each time.

Here is South Africa we have buy the Nitrogen but never own the bottle. We pay a deposit on the bottle.

Nitrogen ain't cheap either. .especially here in SA.
Kartwheel
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2/7/2016 12:56pm
I have had a hybrid fork setup on my Honda 450 for over 3 months now and it has a very nice feel to it.

It consists of the original KYB PSF1 on the left and a KYB spring fork on the right using a YZ450 cartridge and everything matched up for correct length and travel.

In the spring fork I used a stiffer spring than normal for my weight so that the pressure in the air fork could be reduced to lessen the top out/preload effect associated with air and give me some adjustability for conditions as well.

Ken Wheeler
Factory Spec Suspension
2/7/2016 1:26pm
Kartwheel wrote:
I have had a hybrid fork setup on my Honda 450 for over 3 months now and it has a very nice feel to it. It...
I have had a hybrid fork setup on my Honda 450 for over 3 months now and it has a very nice feel to it.

It consists of the original KYB PSF1 on the left and a KYB spring fork on the right using a YZ450 cartridge and everything matched up for correct length and travel.

In the spring fork I used a stiffer spring than normal for my weight so that the pressure in the air fork could be reduced to lessen the top out/preload effect associated with air and give me some adjustability for conditions as well.

Ken Wheeler
Factory Spec Suspension
Could a progressive top out spring be applied to lessen or slow that top out feel?
Bultaco
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2/7/2016 1:33pm Edited Date/Time 2/7/2016 1:35pm
Air is 76% Nitrogen. Does 24% more nitrogen in pure gas really make a difference?

The big problem with air is moisture. If you use a filter/dryer on your compressor, then moisture should not be problem. The aircraft industry uses nitrogen in landing struts because of the moisture. But that is because flying through -30C temps in the flight levels numerous times a day freezes the strut. Not because they need stability.

One other question...if an airfork is gulping air during the moto and pressurizing....won't it do the same with nitrogen? Gulping air is a seal problem, not the species of gas in the chamber.
keith101
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2/7/2016 1:45pm
Bultaco wrote:
Air is 76% Nitrogen. Does 24% more nitrogen in pure gas really make a difference? The big problem with air is moisture. If you use a...
Air is 76% Nitrogen. Does 24% more nitrogen in pure gas really make a difference?

The big problem with air is moisture. If you use a filter/dryer on your compressor, then moisture should not be problem. The aircraft industry uses nitrogen in landing struts because of the moisture. But that is because flying through -30C temps in the flight levels numerous times a day freezes the strut. Not because they need stability.

One other question...if an airfork is gulping air during the moto and pressurizing....won't it do the same with nitrogen? Gulping air is a seal problem, not the species of gas in the chamber.
I just love it when you get all scientific - "gulping". Smile
2/7/2016 3:19pm Edited Date/Time 2/7/2016 3:23pm
Bultaco wrote:
Air is 76% Nitrogen. Does 24% more nitrogen in pure gas really make a difference? The big problem with air is moisture. If you use a...
Air is 76% Nitrogen. Does 24% more nitrogen in pure gas really make a difference?

The big problem with air is moisture. If you use a filter/dryer on your compressor, then moisture should not be problem. The aircraft industry uses nitrogen in landing struts because of the moisture. But that is because flying through -30C temps in the flight levels numerous times a day freezes the strut. Not because they need stability.

One other question...if an airfork is gulping air during the moto and pressurizing....won't it do the same with nitrogen? Gulping air is a seal problem, not the species of gas in the chamber.
Yes it does. If you filled your shock body with compressed air you would find out. Do not do this. Air expands with heat. Nitrogen doesn't.

Moisture is an issue in compressed air but not so much with suspension because of the volume differences. Think about how much air goes through a compressor and is stored in there.

Nitrogen is also used in the tires of planes to stop pressure fluctuations with air pressures and heat levels. Think about a plane at altitude where it's freaking cold as, then it comes down to land, the tires hit the run way and skid due to not spinning v's velocity of the plane, so the the temperature increase is very sudden and high. It's why they also use nitrogen in car race tires to control pressure fluctuations, and now offer it to you for your family car at ridiculous mark up in price. Nitrogen is cheap, the bottle hire is not.

There is no gulping, eating or slurping. Only splurging.

Just an edit note. DO NOT FILL YOUR SHOCK BODY WITH COMPRESSED AIR FOR POSSIBILITY OF EXPLOSION AS THE AIR EXPANDS WITH HEAT FURTHER THEN THE DESIGNED NATURE OF DESIGN STRENGTH
Matthes
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2/7/2016 3:36pm
As anyone heard any news on the new factory hybrid showa forks. I saw Steve from racer x mention something about them in an article. One...
As anyone heard any news on the new factory hybrid showa forks. I saw Steve from racer x mention something about them in an article. One leg of the fork uses an air chamber. The other side uses a coil spring. Apparently js7 and bb4 really like it. Is Weimer running this fork as well?
From what I've heard the fork is still the SFF system and has spring/air combo in one leg. The issue has been the air needs to be so much because of being in just one leg that it doesn't perform that well. This hybrid system lessens the need to have such high pressure and it's not that much heavier because of the spring being a pretty light weight.

And a lot of the big teams do use nitrogen instead of air but the pressure still builds as the race goes on
Beast666
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2/7/2016 3:40pm
It is true that Nitrogen does not expand as much as compressed air due to the fact it has a lower moisture content from the cryogenic process to extract it from the atmosphere.The key reason for using nitrogen in a shock bladder is the fact that a nitrogen atom is larger than hydrogen, oxygen and other components of atmospheric air. It is more difficult for nitrogen to pass through the pores in the rubber bladder contaminating the oil in the shock.

The pressure will still increase with nitrogen in a shock, air fork, or tire it just increases in a much more consistent fashion. There was a couple of times this past year where F1 teams got into trouble because tire pressures were to low at the start of the race. The premise was the team under inflated the tire to allow it to be more in its "sweet spot" pressure when the tire was at race temp. Back in the mid 2000's Ferrari was running refrigerant in there tires to keep tires cooler and more consistent over the distance between pit stops.
2/7/2016 3:43pm
Bultaco wrote:
Air is 76% Nitrogen. Does 24% more nitrogen in pure gas really make a difference? The big problem with air is moisture. If you use a...
Air is 76% Nitrogen. Does 24% more nitrogen in pure gas really make a difference?

The big problem with air is moisture. If you use a filter/dryer on your compressor, then moisture should not be problem. The aircraft industry uses nitrogen in landing struts because of the moisture. But that is because flying through -30C temps in the flight levels numerous times a day freezes the strut. Not because they need stability.

One other question...if an airfork is gulping air during the moto and pressurizing....won't it do the same with nitrogen? Gulping air is a seal problem, not the species of gas in the chamber.
Yes it does. If you filled your shock body with compressed air you would find out. Do not do this. Air expands with heat. Nitrogen doesn't...
Yes it does. If you filled your shock body with compressed air you would find out. Do not do this. Air expands with heat. Nitrogen doesn't.

Moisture is an issue in compressed air but not so much with suspension because of the volume differences. Think about how much air goes through a compressor and is stored in there.

Nitrogen is also used in the tires of planes to stop pressure fluctuations with air pressures and heat levels. Think about a plane at altitude where it's freaking cold as, then it comes down to land, the tires hit the run way and skid due to not spinning v's velocity of the plane, so the the temperature increase is very sudden and high. It's why they also use nitrogen in car race tires to control pressure fluctuations, and now offer it to you for your family car at ridiculous mark up in price. Nitrogen is cheap, the bottle hire is not.

There is no gulping, eating or slurping. Only splurging.

Just an edit note. DO NOT FILL YOUR SHOCK BODY WITH COMPRESSED AIR FOR POSSIBILITY OF EXPLOSION AS THE AIR EXPANDS WITH HEAT FURTHER THEN THE DESIGNED NATURE OF DESIGN STRENGTH
Nitrogen expands with heat just like compressed air does.


Its the moisture content within most peoples compressed air that causes big issue. If you use scuba air, you will find the expansion rate (or in the case of a finite volume such as a shock) the pressure rise between compressed air and nitrogen nearly identical with temperature rise. And yes this has been tested in shocks in use on bikes with data logging.

The glaring negative to compressed air vs nitrogen is the oxygen content. Oxygen in some systems can cause headaches with corrosion and reactivity. In the ultra rare case temperatures are near ignition temperatures of an oil... And a quick leak combined with a spark event could cause a disaster. Compressed air is more dangerous than many know when it comes to fire risk. All in all for many people nitrogen is easy to get in a pure form and makes things easier than knowing if your compressed air really is water free.
2/7/2016 3:58pm
Give the consumer a choice on spring or air forks at the point of sale. Make it a upsale on the springs.
2/7/2016 9:11pm
I stand corrected. This engineer suspension guy told us that at a school I went to years ago. I'll stick with Nitrogen anyway.
Jrewing
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2/8/2016 3:19am
Just use less air psi in your shock than nitrogen- world won't end
jtiger12
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2/8/2016 5:01am
I would gladly pay $300 more for a 2017 crf450 that has kayaba spring forks instead of PSF2's, or some hybrid spring/air frankenfork. As it stands, I will likely spend more on the race tech conversion kit.
MR. X
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2/8/2016 6:25am
Anybody with a new honda wanna swap one fork leg with me ?

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