Posts: 380
Joined: 12/18/2014
Location: Countryside, IL USA
Yamaha can't keep going with the current 125 and 250s forever can they? I would like to think they have a new generation of the two strokes coming with either an adaptation of the current yzf frame/chassis, or a new frame, and an updated motor design.
When do you think we'll finally see a new platform released?
Posts: 4595
Joined: 10/1/2013
Location: Davis, CA USA
I don't think they really need to make drastic changes, but here's my list of what NEEDS to be done.
1. Put the new style swing arm on damn it! I put it on my 15 and it definitely makes a difference, it's just so beyond stupid for them to keep using the old one.
2. Steeper head tube angle. The new swingarm helps put weight on the front, but I'd like a little more like the KTM has
3. The button!!! It's 2017, no moto/enduro bike should be sold without E-start at this point.
Another nice thing would be replacing the Phillips head bolts in the ignition cover with hex heads, but that's a small gripe. For me, as someone who rides one every weekend, this are my must do's. These are simple things that can be done pretty easily on a new model (E-start would be a little more intensive), and as far as I'm concerned the motor is just fine. Come on Yamaha, make it happen and make me buy a new one of these things.
Make Hillclimb Great Again
Ratbeach Racing
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Posts: 8299
Joined: 10/19/2010
Location: AS, USA
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Total re-do not likely. It would be a huge gamble just to break even, over many years, and would most likely be a losing proposition. 2t’s are a niche within a niche, even more so for new 2t’s sales.
much ty. How to spot a paid forum poster/artificial forum traffic producer (see list of actions/phrases below):
Copius pattern amounts of phrases like “Anyone have”..., “Anybody know?”.... and their variations.
Thoughts?
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks in advance!
Posts: 3328
Joined: 8/3/2016
Location: CA, USA
They are usually the kings using the same parts for multiple bikes. It would amazing if they got the four stroke frame.
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Posts: 3279
Joined: 10/1/2006
Location: AZ, USA
For the love of god... please don't let that hideous giant hippo of a chassis that the 4-strokes use anywhere near the 2-strokes. For starters, it's fugly......
And why on earth would you want e-start on a 2-stroke? They fire up 1st kick easily.
All these guys that want EFI and e-start on 2-strokes are going to kill this sport for good. The beauty of the 2-strokes is the light weight, simplicity, and relative affordability. More 2002-2006 CR250's were sold off craigslist last year than Honda sold new CRF450's for a reason.
Powerband in every gear !
Posts: 21661
Joined: 11/25/2008
Location: Thru-out, CA USA
What happens to the price tag if they go and make these changes? The Yamaha is already waaaay too much money for a 1990s design...and don't go practicing starts against your buddies SX or TC 125...
Besides, EVERYTHING most of y'all are arguing about has been "asked and answered" for me: I've been riding a Husky TE150 & I'm going to make a "TC150" for my "Superlight-Vet-Weapon".
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals. I get my back into my living. I don't need to fight, to prove I'm right. I don't need to be forgiven.
Posts: 477
Joined: 11/20/2017
Location: USA
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Who needs electric start on a 2 stroke? If it doesn't start in 1-2 kicks hot or cold, there is something wrong.
Im all about EFI, but that shits been batteryless for 21 years OEM and 26 aftermarket . And without electric start.
Posts: 4595
Joined: 10/1/2013
Location: Davis, CA USA
When you ride nothing but practice days on cute little groomed tracks, then no, you probably dont need E-start. When you're an hour deep into a nasty trail ride, beat tired, and trying desperately to kick your fricken bike with your opposite foot on a rediculous side hill after your wheel slipped off the six inch wide piece of real estate they call a trail, I would give pretty much anything to have E-start. Or, if you go down during a race and want to have your bike running before you even swing a let back over, you need E-start.
You guys act like E-start is some crazy thing to ask for, it's not any sort of new technology and it shouldn't add any cost as far as I'm concerned considering they've been milking this design for 10+ years now. Adding the new swing arm is a bolt on modification for certain years (not 2014 like MXA thinks, ask me how I know. . .), so really no cost there since the tooling already exists. These aren't massive changes, just simple updates that would really help a few weak points in the bike. I still think the bike is plenty competitive, but some common sense changes would make a world of difference.
Make Hillclimb Great Again
Ratbeach Racing
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Posts: 2062
Joined: 5/18/2015
Location: JPN
Full model change, not going to happen. Small updates that seem to take forever are more likely.
If you want a new two stroke, buy a KTM of husky. They actually give a shit about their two strokes.
"Nothing happens until something moves"
Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/28/2016
Location: AUS
It would be interesting to know how yamaha's bottom line looks on the two strokes these days compared to their four strokes.
All of the development work would have been complete before the 2005 model two strokes were released, all the tooling for the parts that Yamaha makes themselves would have been paid for long ago...updates have been very modest. So presumably these bikes have been very profitable for the14 model years of their existence.
Here in Australia, you can usually buy a new yz 450 cheaper than a 250 two stroke...not quite at the moment with the 18's but the 450 will get discounted in a few months, the two strokes never do..
You could argue a case that perhaps the long running profits from the two strokes are subsidising the development and tooling costs of the 4 year cycle four strokes...???
In any case surely the profits from 14 unchanged model years would have paid for the development and tooling of a new from the ground up bike...that's if Yamaha were in the habit of putting away a percentage of profit from those models to go towards the cost of a new model.. ???
I think Yamaha should bring out all new two strokes..they would sell but it might be at the cost of overall sales of their four stokes.
I read that it was Doug Dubach that went into bat for the two strokes when the bean counters were considering dropping them..So perhaps the cost of manufacturing alone with the 2 strokes, despite there being no ongoing development and tooling costs on these bikes , makes them unprofitable when they aren't selling in similar numbers to the four stokes ???
It's hard to know...and nobody really likes bean counters anyway....self righteous pricks!
So perhaps that's our answer there...Doug appealed to them to just keep making the two strokes so as to keep their loyal customers happy, and as long as they don't have to spend any money developing new ones..they will continue to make them???
Personally I've got no complaints with the bikes the way they are ,other than that they cost as much or often times more than the latest generation 4 strokes....that makes me feel as though I'm being ripped off!
Sure would be nice to know what their bottom line has been on them over the last 14 model years....
2020 YZ450F
2006 YZ125
2013 YZ 250F special edition
2017 YZ 250
2015 YZ 250f soecial edition
2019 KTM 85 big wheel
1979 YZ 250
Posts: 1270
Joined: 5/9/2011
Location: AUS
While people are buying the YZ's Yamaha doesn't need to update them. Below are the figures for Australian motocross bike sales Jan-June 2017. The YZ 250 increased its sales by 2% over the previous year and then KTM 250sx is not even on the list. That backs up what I see at the track too.
Top Ten Selling Motocross Motorcycles in Australia – Jan-June 2017
Second column is number of units sold, third column is +/- % of previous year
Yamaha YZ250F / 400 / -3.8%
Honda CRF450R / 357 / 58.0%
Yamaha YZ450F / 308 / -25.2%
Honda CRF250R / 279 / -1.1%
Kawasaki KX250F / 256 / -26.2%
Kawasaki KX450F / 210 / -47.1%
KTM 250SXF / 201 / 1.0%
KTM 450SXF / 192 / -24.1%
Yamaha YZ250 / 191 / 2.1%
KTM 50SX / 171/ 3.0%
Posts: 131
Joined: 3/7/2017
Location: Lake Havasu, AZ USA
I was in agreement with everything you were saying until the whole e-start on the two stroke statement. Dude that's ridiculous. If your riding a two stroke it's cause your wanting to fully enjoy the two stroke experience. Feel, sound, smell, and all the cool parts of ripping a two stroke are what make it what it is. That first kick or two when your bike fires right up and you give it a couple blips of the throttle is one of the coolest parts of two stroke life
Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/28/2016
Location: AUS
I agree..the yz is a motocross race bike and is pretty easy to start after a fall, I wouldn't want e start on mine, however I wish I'd waited for the 18 450 with its e start. Damned if I can get going quickly after a fall on my 450.. Race is blown.
However, Yamaha makes the yz 250 X for off roaders, and JM485 has a valid point about the advantage of e start in certain situations...if the c model had e start ,that would be fine by me..
2020 YZ450F
2006 YZ125
2013 YZ 250F special edition
2017 YZ 250
2015 YZ 250f soecial edition
2019 KTM 85 big wheel
1979 YZ 250
Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/28/2016
Location: AUS
2020 YZ450F
2006 YZ125
2013 YZ 250F special edition
2017 YZ 250
2015 YZ 250f soecial edition
2019 KTM 85 big wheel
1979 YZ 250
Posts: 1270
Joined: 5/9/2011
Location: AUS
It could be done so easily but they already sell all the 250 2 strokes they bring in from what I have found. Although if they did these small upgrades I feel they would steal more sales away from ktm.
I was looking at going a brand new yz 250 until I found a 2010 on original tyres. I couldn't see the point of spending double the money for the same bike all for the sake of a few hours of run time
Posts: 2591
Joined: 5/25/2010
Location: Kent,medway...., GBR
Posts: 425
Joined: 9/18/2016
Location: Miami, FL USA
Any major changes made would have to come with very minimal change in price. As is it the bikes are already too expensive for how old the design is. When you're already talking thousands of dollars, it becomes a no brainer to spend a few hundred more on a ktm/husky for a more powerful, better handling, and more modern machine.
Posts: 4032
Joined: 4/26/2009
Location: España, ESP
Posts: 159
Joined: 4/22/2017
Location: Carmel, IN USA
Posts: 545
Joined: 6/7/2016
Location: Bristol, GBR
You might be onto something. I helped a friend re-build the motor on his 2003 CR250 recently. The cylinders have been on backorder from Honda for months now, either meaning Honda is hardly producing them anymore, or potentially, the demand is very strong and outstripping supply. I suspect the latter. For a bike that's 15 years old now, I was pleasantly surprised how easy all the other parts were to obtain.The market is definitely there.
Posts: 2633
Joined: 11/10/2015
Location: San Clemente, CA USA
Posts: 2115
Joined: 10/9/2011
Location: Centralia, IL USA
We own 5 of them from 2015 to 2017 and love them. Not really sure what you want them to change. Bike is about perfect the way it is.
We tried KTM and did not like them. To each their own but the YZ is the complete package. It comes stock with about a half a horsepower less than the KTM but a couple pounds lighter and the hop up potential is head an shoulders about the KTM as the orange bikes are already massaged to the max from the factory. Less vibration, broader powerband, hands down best suspension and reliability hat nothing can touch.
Again, not sure what you really want them to do. If the bike is about perfect, why touch it. Don't fall into the magazine and media game of "its dated", whatever, I can keep parts on hand and I don't have to constantly buy new crap when they change things.
The YZ250 smoker is about as perfect of a bike of any class you can buy.
Posts: 211
Joined: 7/30/2015
Location: CAN
I'm about to bring home a YZ250x. I'm just getting in to the off road scene, I like it just as much as moto for different reasons. Everyone I've talked to that has ridden the X version loves it, right from top Pro riders to my fellow vet class buddies. The only single thing about the X that I wish it had was an e-start.
There are so many times that you're in a precarious position and the bike stalls, it really isn't easy every single time to get your leg over and start it. And that one simple feature has me almost thinking of spending a lot more money for a bike with e-start.
The last 2 stroke I rode was over 20 years ago on a clapped out 87 cr125, the nostalgia is not why I'm buying a 2stroke. It's simply for the power to weight ratio of the bike in tight fairly technical trails, I'm going with the Yamaha because the design is proven, reliable and the price is right. They did just enough changes to the X model to make it a legitimate choice for those of us that do the off-road thing, but I still can't wait to see what it does on the track compared to my 250f... E-start would make it a no-brainer purchase.
For anyone saying e-start is pointless on a 2 stroke, I say get off the track and try some serious trails.
Posts: 2633
Joined: 11/10/2015
Location: San Clemente, CA USA
White_Trash wrote:I'm about to bring home a YZ250x. I'm just getting in to the off road scene, I like it just as much as moto for different ...more
I'm jealous of that factory 18" rear wheel
"A link is only as long as your longest strong chain"
Posts: 2824
Joined: 6/28/2014
Location: AUS
Posts: 1125
Joined: 1/3/2011
Location: USA
The real question is if Yamaha ever decides to do a somewhat significant update to their two strokes, what happens to the value of all the used ones. Do they go back to normal, or have they taken a permanent "ktm type" bump upward?
Posts: 1125
Joined: 1/3/2011
Location: USA
Edited Date/Time:
I want some cool looking steel spars on a spacious steel frame. And some newer plastic that isn't bound by the confines of the current frame/gas tank. Otherwise, I could care less if they change the engine or suspension. A little more pucker power up front and a hydraulic clutch would be welcomed, but not a big deal.
P.S. If I'm going to nitpick, yamaha swingarms are boring as hell. Its a blank canvas just asking for a little detail.
Posts: 2058
Joined: 1/11/2012
Location: TX, USA
I'd really just like to see them adopt a power valve system like KTM and Husky.
My buddy has a 17 TC250 and I was playing around with the springs and the tuning bolt yesterday. Very cool system that can easily adapt the power to different tracks and conditions.
Posts: 6643
Joined: 2/3/2010
Location: Lehi, UT USA
As for E-start...they can do what they want with the YZ line...but on the YZ250X...please put an e-start on that thing.
No need for one on a moto track...but off road...easy starting two stroke or not, an e start sure is nice.
(IF KTM would just put some KYB SSS forks on their XC line, I'd just buy a KTM250XC...)
Posts: 1898
Joined: 3/4/2013
Location: Pink Hill, NC USA
Edited Date/Time:
New swingarm and hub is just smart manufacturing, there is no need for the old one.
New brake pedal, I'm going to do this on my bike
New 5xc footpeg, titanium pegs are cool but they are smaller and crack.
New head,
black ignition cover that tan color is awful.
Triple clamps with moveable bar mounts.
New tank and shrouds that won't bubble the graphics.
Hydraulic clutch would be cool but that isn't a yamaha part yet.
The yz is a great bike, it's just not appealing to buy a new one. I bet when they run YZ's on the assembly line the managers go on vacation. That line has to be dialed in after 10+ years of the same bike.
