New Alta model

mark911
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Ashville, OH US
2/1/2018 11:04pm
wacker wrote:
I had asked if I would be able to do this to get any benefits and I was told not so much. The performance upgrades mostly...
I had asked if I would be able to do this to get any benefits and I was told not so much. The performance upgrades mostly come out of an ALL NEW battery. It isn't even the same manufacturer as before and that's also where a lot of the price difference comes in. A battery upgrade would be cool, but probably wouldn't make sense financially if it even would work. I am almost certain it uses an all new computer as well. I spent almost a week on one of the first MXR's built and it was a blast. Everything is just a bit better all around as not only the suspension was upgraded, but shock linkage and mounting as well. Plus all the models got new pegs which was definitely needed. I have my 17 setup super dialed in and would love the upgrades of the MXR, but its not really holding me back in any way. I think the best thing about the MXR is that it just has all of the quirks worked out, right out of the box. I was comfortable with setting the sag, air pressure and a few clickers compared to completely gutting the 4CS and putting my KYB internals in it with some extra love to the shock setup.
I'd be super surprised if any of the electronics needed upgrading, Alta's not that dumb. It's all in the code. Maybe the inverter was redesigned to take more current but again, I'd like to think Alta was smart enough to anticipate the requirements for higher torque/HP and build it into the original designs. Scalability is a big deal in keeping costs down and still allow for future improvement. The non-recurring costs of major redesigns every model year would kill them.

I'm not aware of any major advances in switching or power transistors so inverter hardware tech is pretty rote. Maybe a couple % more efficiency might be possible. Modulating algorithms and software is constantly evolving, however, but again it's all still based on the same hardware configuration so only a re-flash should be necessary.

The new cells probably enable the performance increase while still staying within Alta's reliability and durability standards. I'm pretty certain the old pack could support the new higher "R" requirements for discharge rate but the life of the pack would suffer and Alta wouldn't warrantee them. Most advanced (FAST) riders would probably get some thermal limiting as well. I'm not that fast.

Frankly, I'd rather have an option for a 40hp/120 ft/lb pack with 2/3 the 2017 range but 20lbs lighter. Still waiting on that one!
crockett
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CA
2/2/2018 12:35am
Will Alta's success have a huge hit on professional racing? Thinking of major sponsor dollars in our sport that will and won't carry over. Gear sponsors yes, exhaust sponsors, (pro circuit racing) no. I feel like a lot of big industry companies won't transfer into electric, yes this is hypothetical, but a good question
Thelen20
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1997
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Marshall, TX US
2/2/2018 5:45am
I have my 15 KTM 250SX pretty dialed with a-kit suspension and everything, but in 4-5 years when I get a new bike I bet it's an Alta!!!
wfopete
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Dover, AR US
2/2/2018 6:07am
Could see a whole new venue of sponsors. Instead of VP fuels you might see your local electric company. Instead of Pro Circuit you might see a firmware company.

The Shop

Muezh
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Woodhaven, MI US
2/2/2018 6:19am
Meister wrote:
For crying out loud, somebody in Ohio buy one! I need to ride one! I then may buy one of my own. Ill be buying something...
For crying out loud, somebody in Ohio buy one! I need to ride one! I then may buy one of my own. Ill be buying something soon, either a new 450, or if I can ride an alta, possibly no more gas for me besides in the generator. lol
Was thinking same thing!!

No dealers anywhere in the Midwest!

I’ve said this many times. I was on the front lines battling neighbors and a township that hated dirtbike noise. We lost. These bikes open my home track here in Michigan to unlimited riding without bothering anyone ever again.





early
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2/2/2018 6:25am
crockett wrote:
Will Alta's success have a huge hit on professional racing? Thinking of major sponsor dollars in our sport that will and won't carry over. Gear sponsors...
Will Alta's success have a huge hit on professional racing? Thinking of major sponsor dollars in our sport that will and won't carry over. Gear sponsors yes, exhaust sponsors, (pro circuit racing) no. I feel like a lot of big industry companies won't transfer into electric, yes this is hypothetical, but a good question
Tires, suspension, chains, sprockets, plastics, graphics, brakes, bars, levers, bearings. Lots of components/hardparts to replace. You can buy an exhaust for your generator from PC i guess.
Brad460
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Richfield, WI US
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2/2/2018 6:29am Edited Date/Time 2/2/2018 6:30am
early wrote:
Tires, suspension, chains, sprockets, plastics, graphics, brakes, bars, levers, bearings. Lots of components/hardparts to replace. You can buy an exhaust for your generator from PC i...
Tires, suspension, chains, sprockets, plastics, graphics, brakes, bars, levers, bearings. Lots of components/hardparts to replace. You can buy an exhaust for your generator from PC i guess.
Plus adding gas, changing oil and filters on the generator instead of the bike. Often going "green" isn't really going "green"...its simply transferring the fossil fuel consumption elsewhere..

I personally dont care about the environmental part of a electric bike- its the elimination of noise so I can build a moto track around the house.
MX558
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US
2/2/2018 7:14am
I'm all for Alta but me being old (53) it would be hard to adjust to without exhaust noise . I can't wait to ride one as I'm in the market for a new bike soon and I am considering this bike since the price drop. I wish I was 30 yrs younger to fully reap the benefits of E-bikes as the local tracks will grow by 10 fold.
brocster
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Aliso Viejo, CA US
2/2/2018 8:16am
I had a chance to ride the 2017 model at Milestone demo day and absolutely loved it. (200# vet intermediate) Albe it on a tamed down small track I was sold knowing I could make this thing go on the vet and main tracks. I was considering buying one even at the inflated price justified by maintenance cost over time of a IC machine. Now with the new model (MXR) upgrades and lower price I am hoping that by summer time I will be able to make the purchase.

Patiently waiting...
Zoom
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Cypress, TX US
2/2/2018 8:18am
I can address a few of the concerns mentioned above.

-Over the last year Alta has hired Regional Sales Managers to set up the dealer network around the country. The last region was the North Central. Alta recently hired a rep there, so look for dealers to start popping up in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana etc...soon.

-I have done hundreds of demo's and the lack of sound is never an issue for the rider. The people that think the lack of sound is weird, are spectators. However, there is a sound, just a quiet different sound.

-The founders did not create the bike to be "green". They created it to have an easier way to go fast on a dirt bike and one that comes with an ease of ownership and zero engine maintenance.
wacker
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Murrieta, CA US
2/2/2018 8:35am
mark911 wrote:
I'd be super surprised if any of the electronics needed upgrading, Alta's not that dumb. It's all in the code. Maybe the inverter was redesigned to...
I'd be super surprised if any of the electronics needed upgrading, Alta's not that dumb. It's all in the code. Maybe the inverter was redesigned to take more current but again, I'd like to think Alta was smart enough to anticipate the requirements for higher torque/HP and build it into the original designs. Scalability is a big deal in keeping costs down and still allow for future improvement. The non-recurring costs of major redesigns every model year would kill them.

I'm not aware of any major advances in switching or power transistors so inverter hardware tech is pretty rote. Maybe a couple % more efficiency might be possible. Modulating algorithms and software is constantly evolving, however, but again it's all still based on the same hardware configuration so only a re-flash should be necessary.

The new cells probably enable the performance increase while still staying within Alta's reliability and durability standards. I'm pretty certain the old pack could support the new higher "R" requirements for discharge rate but the life of the pack would suffer and Alta wouldn't warrantee them. Most advanced (FAST) riders would probably get some thermal limiting as well. I'm not that fast.

Frankly, I'd rather have an option for a 40hp/120 ft/lb pack with 2/3 the 2017 range but 20lbs lighter. Still waiting on that one!
Don't take my word for it, but I am pretty sure I was told we were testing the newest hardware when I spent a week riding the MXR. Could have been strictly battery but I don't believe that to be the case. I am a rider and not an engineer but I ask a lot of questions as I want to know how and why the bike performs. After riding the MXR I asked if there was anyway I could upgrade the '17 I am riding with software/battery to get the performance of the MXR and the short story was no. They also could have not wanted to off an extra battery from the production line or wanted to re-flash my bike and fry the one I had...

Either way, I love the 17 I have and the upgrades to the MXR are just icing on the cake. I can't see my fleet not having at least an electric bike or two, or three for the rest of my riding days.
loftyair
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riverside, CA US
2/2/2018 9:02am
It would be cool to be able to add and/or subtract chunks of battery. Most local mx races are a whole 8 minutes. I rode that bike, it is heavy, but quick. If the top 1/2 of the motor wasn't there, it would also handle quite nice. The way it is, I feel it is top-heavy.
walleyeguy
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Centerville, PA US
2/2/2018 10:25am
Wonder how this thing is going to take a good crash. It definitely has my interest but how much would a replacement battery or motor be?
zehn
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Anchorage, AK US
2/2/2018 10:43am
walleyeguy wrote:
Wonder how this thing is going to take a good crash. It definitely has my interest but how much would a replacement battery or motor be?
Motor probably wouldn't be too bad, but a replacement battery would likely cost several thousand dollars.
walleyeguy
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Centerville, PA US
2/2/2018 10:52am
That's what I'm thinking. Everybody is asking about if you can "update" your bike when newer/better tech comes out with either the motor or "more than likely" battery. The problem is that the "update" of a new battery system is going to cost half of a brand new bike and will significantly decrease the value of your current bike every time there is a breakthrough. Which I'm guessing is going to be quite often. I'm not trying to down the Alta in anyway but I think for the people who jump on this bandwagon first are going to loose a lot of money in the next couple years. On the other hand don't all of us? LOL. Dirt bikes aren't exactly known to be good investments.
ben990
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Honeoye Falls, NY US
2/2/2018 2:52pm
MX558 wrote:
I'm all for Alta but me being old (53) it would be hard to adjust to without exhaust noise . I can't wait to ride one...
I'm all for Alta but me being old (53) it would be hard to adjust to without exhaust noise . I can't wait to ride one as I'm in the market for a new bike soon and I am considering this bike since the price drop. I wish I was 30 yrs younger to fully reap the benefits of E-bikes as the local tracks will grow by 10 fold.
I bought my 2017 Alta Redshift MX back in June 2017, not to be green, but to be able to ride on my own property whenever I want. A good friend has a track next door, and we have had noise issues for years. After trying different quiet exhaust solutions (FMF Q's, DBSnorkel, ...) and an expensive court battle with the town, we have a noise ordinance where we can only ride on certain days and times.

My Alta changed all that. I can now ride anytime I want, on my own track in the woods behind my house. I did a 30 minute moto earlier this afternoon in 15 degree weather, well, just because I can, and I didn't feel like driving to the gym for a workout. Nobody knew I was out there.

The lack of noise was easy to get used to and you can focus more on other things. You hear the rear tire scrubbing and trying to grip, and you can adjust your right wrist accordingly. You can also focus more on line choice and braking points than on a gas bike.

In addition to being able to ride whenever I want, I have a very competitive MX bike that has 80 hours on it with no engine maintainence in sight. Try that on your 250F and let me know how that works out for you. Smile It is a holeshot machine ( I won A $50 holeshot award on it last year at a local MX race) and it works great in local motocross, with my 220v generator charging it up between motos.

I have a whole bunch of bikes, but I have the most fun on the Alta.

BTW, I am 52 years old, vet intermediate MXer.



9/3/2021 6:29am
crockett wrote:
Will Alta's success have a huge hit on professional racing? Thinking of major sponsor dollars in our sport that will and won't carry over. Gear sponsors...
Will Alta's success have a huge hit on professional racing? Thinking of major sponsor dollars in our sport that will and won't carry over. Gear sponsors yes, exhaust sponsors, (pro circuit racing) no. I feel like a lot of big industry companies won't transfer into electric, yes this is hypothetical, but a good question
This here is why the big 7 won't release a competitive electric motocross bike anytime in the near future. They make a lot of money off parts, and electric dirt bikes will generate far less revenue. I'd be willing to bet that at least one of the big 7 has pretty competitive e-bike waiting in the wings, but that the timing isn't right.

Super competitive electric mx bikes aren't just disruptive for dealers, but downstream in engine hop-up companies, pipe sales, clutches, ect as well.

Since Alta is no more, I seriously considered a freeride-e but that bike looks pretty weak overall.

Being able to ride moto in my backyard without people immediately complaining about noise is a huge plus.
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cmotodad
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9/3/2021 8:17am Edited Date/Time 9/3/2021 9:23pm
If you are a litte mechanically inclined, XEMX1 has a kit available in the near future for a 2105 generation YZ250F. It is a complete bolt in kit for that gen frame. I have seen a prototype unit and it is very clean. CNC machined cases with gear reduction and motor, programmed controller,battery. Complete kit or parts separately. Perfect fitment and a completely product look. At this point I think they have a website you can look at for video.
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FlaNard
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9/3/2021 10:13am
Saw this thread title and got excited. Leaving disappointed.
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Johnny Depp
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9/3/2021 4:51pm
cmotodad wrote:
If you are a litte mechanically inclined, XEMX1 has a kit available in the near future for a 2105 generation YZ250F. It is a complete bolt...
If you are a litte mechanically inclined, XEMX1 has a kit available in the near future for a 2105 generation YZ250F. It is a complete bolt in kit for that gen frame. I have seen a prototype unit and it is very clean. CNC machined cases with gear reduction and motor, programmed controller,battery. Complete kit or parts separately. Perfect fitment and a completely product look. At this point I think they have a website you can look at for video.
That was worth clicking on this thread for. Great post.

https://xemx1.com/

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Zoom
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9/3/2021 5:02pm Edited Date/Time 9/3/2021 5:03pm
I'm a former Alta employee that now works for one of the major OEM's, and I can tell you with certainly there will be a competitive E-motocross bike from many of the major OEM's in the not too distant future.

They know its the future and are working on it...

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Johnny Depp
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9/3/2021 5:05pm
Zoom wrote:
I'm a former Alta employee that now works for one of the major OEM's, and I can tell you with certainly there will be a competitive...
I'm a former Alta employee that now works for one of the major OEM's, and I can tell you with certainly there will be a competitive E-motocross bike from many of the major OEM's in the not too distant future.

They know its the future and are working on it...

They are gonna start hiding things from you if they see you on VitalWoohoo
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mark911
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9/5/2021 11:19pm
Zoom wrote:
I'm a former Alta employee that now works for one of the major OEM's, and I can tell you with certainly there will be a competitive...
I'm a former Alta employee that now works for one of the major OEM's, and I can tell you with certainly there will be a competitive E-motocross bike from many of the major OEM's in the not too distant future.

They know its the future and are working on it...

"Competitive" is too vague a term in this instance. Competitive in what respect(s) I'd have to ask?

Lets face it, battery technology (at least the tech commercially available today and in the near future at relatively economical cost) simply won't support the kind of range that most off-road racers require. Yes, there could be work-arounds like fast change hot swappable packs, but that would require multiple packs adding thousands of dollars to an already expensive bottom line. So, unless you have money to burn that automatically limits the "competitiveness" to shorter events like motocross.

Focusing on motocross only, to be truly "competitive" would mean being able to finish a 30 minute moto plus two laps with a National Caliber rider in the most harsh conditions. Again, current battery technology simply isn't advanced enough to accomplish this and still have the bike relatively weight competitive. The Alta's battery pack was/is the most advanced design seen to date and it can't even accomplish the above with a fast A rider in a local 20 minute race.

Now, if the target demographic is vets and C/B riders in local MX events held under ideal conditions then sure, a properly designed electric bike (like the Alta but maybe 20lb lighter) can surely be "competitive".

Unless some mfg has invested multiple millions of dollars secretly developing some new cell design that none of the major cell producers (Sony, LG, Panasonic, etc) or hundreds of research labs around the world haven't thought of and then made that new technology commercially economical viable I just don't see an electric being truly competitive for some time.

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Johnny Depp
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9/6/2021 9:20am
Zoom wrote:
I'm a former Alta employee that now works for one of the major OEM's, and I can tell you with certainly there will be a competitive...
I'm a former Alta employee that now works for one of the major OEM's, and I can tell you with certainly there will be a competitive E-motocross bike from many of the major OEM's in the not too distant future.

They know its the future and are working on it...

mark911 wrote:
"Competitive" is too vague a term in this instance. Competitive in what respect(s) I'd have to ask? Lets face it, battery technology (at least the tech...
"Competitive" is too vague a term in this instance. Competitive in what respect(s) I'd have to ask?

Lets face it, battery technology (at least the tech commercially available today and in the near future at relatively economical cost) simply won't support the kind of range that most off-road racers require. Yes, there could be work-arounds like fast change hot swappable packs, but that would require multiple packs adding thousands of dollars to an already expensive bottom line. So, unless you have money to burn that automatically limits the "competitiveness" to shorter events like motocross.

Focusing on motocross only, to be truly "competitive" would mean being able to finish a 30 minute moto plus two laps with a National Caliber rider in the most harsh conditions. Again, current battery technology simply isn't advanced enough to accomplish this and still have the bike relatively weight competitive. The Alta's battery pack was/is the most advanced design seen to date and it can't even accomplish the above with a fast A rider in a local 20 minute race.

Now, if the target demographic is vets and C/B riders in local MX events held under ideal conditions then sure, a properly designed electric bike (like the Alta but maybe 20lb lighter) can surely be "competitive".

Unless some mfg has invested multiple millions of dollars secretly developing some new cell design that none of the major cell producers (Sony, LG, Panasonic, etc) or hundreds of research labs around the world haven't thought of and then made that new technology commercially economical viable I just don't see an electric being truly competitive for some time.

Zoom had a really good weekend on a green bike, 1-1 at Vet Masters at 3 Palms..

Mark as you said, battery swap is the only way forward at this time. Even for moto the batteries are too hot for the 2nd moto and a swap would be mandatory.

I had dangled the question with current solutions in a thread, https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Back-to-the-Future-E-Bik…

If there is no modification to the race format, we will be waiting a LONG time for E-bikes at the pro level.
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RMT
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9/6/2021 9:34am Edited Date/Time 9/6/2021 9:35am
Zoom had a really good weekend on a green bike, 1-1 at Vet Masters at 3 Palms.. Mark as you said, battery swap is the only...
Zoom had a really good weekend on a green bike, 1-1 at Vet Masters at 3 Palms..

Mark as you said, battery swap is the only way forward at this time. Even for moto the batteries are too hot for the 2nd moto and a swap would be mandatory.

I had dangled the question with current solutions in a thread, https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Back-to-the-Future-E-Bik…

If there is no modification to the race format, we will be waiting a LONG time for E-bikes at the pro level.
Pit stops in the future? Who knows where things may lead.
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mark911
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Ashville, OH US
9/6/2021 10:35am
With regards to battery packs getting too hot, there is technology available today to solve the heat problem. For example, I've incorporated water cooled cold plates and a cooling system into my Alta pack and into a pack I designed and built for my KTM supermini project.

However, since typical ambient temperatures are only a handful of degrees lower than the safe operating temps of most Li-Ion cells the only solution on hotter days is to "pre-cool" the pack to sub-ambient (45-50F) temp using a water cooler or "chiller" as shown. This allows much more thermal headroom and you can fast charge immediately after a moto without worrying about adding even more heat to an already hot pack. Chilling as shown can reduce a charging hot pack to the level required in about an hour, just about the same time as it takes to charge.

Although my research and development for an effective battery pack thermal management system is still under test (I've also tried total emersion using specially formulated dielectric fluid, forced air, etc) this design shows the most promise. However, a good chiller like the one shown can run over a thousand dollars and even with dry break fluid connections the process is a bit cumbersome. Depending on the availability of electricity and/or the capacity of your charging generator you might need a second source of power.

All this extra effort/cost and the pack capacity/range will now be the limiting factor. As mentioned, 20 minutes under a good A rider on a more or less hardpacked track with minimal elevation changes is all I'd expect.





You can see more details on my instagram @maxvonauto
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