Neck braces... Your opinion

Griff.747
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11/10/2013 1:53pm
Griff.747 wrote:
Sounds to me like your head is up your ass not in your hands if your dumb enough to think they wouldn't hire a third party...
Sounds to me like your head is up your ass not in your hands if your dumb enough to think they wouldn't hire a third party to investigate.
You misunderstood. The third party is the racing organization, who can investigate the circumstances of a death but causes of death are determined by a Pathologist...
You misunderstood.

The third party is the racing organization, who can investigate the circumstances of a death but causes of death are determined by a Pathologist or Coroner, contrary to what CamP believes.

Only the immediate relatives of the deceased or a legally authorised authority can appoint a pathologist or coroner to perform a post mortem, which clearly excludes the Federation of International Motorcycling.

Is that clear enough for you?
Ok I get what your saying now. Sorry about the mix up. And your right the FIM AMA or any organization can't to get a coroner/pathologist to determine. The family does. Sorry about the mix up.

If they did find the cause of death the racing organization couldn't release that without the families consent either right?
Griff.747
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11/10/2013 1:57pm
It's the same as a seat belt. It won't save you every time but it will improve your chances of surviving if you need it.
This guy gets it. A seat belt won't do you a bit of good if the car is crushed. But it will help in many other types of accident.

And as far as the collar bone argument. Seat belts break collar bones too. But we all know they can also save your life
CamP
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11/10/2013 2:22pm Edited Date/Time 11/10/2013 2:40pm
Socket946 wrote:
And you think, just for 1 moment, that the FIM maybe, just maybe, employs a Pathologist to do such investigating? This thread is horrible: The Anti-neck...
And you think, just for 1 moment, that the FIM maybe, just maybe, employs a Pathologist to do such investigating?

This thread is horrible: The Anti-neck brace crowd hurls negative insults and almost personal like attacks; where the defenders use logic, facts, and reasoning.

Blows my mind people could be so passionate against something designed to protect you.....

I haven't tried a neck brace, but I do wear asterisk knee braces, and LOVE them.

I'll be better qualified when I finally try a neck brace soon enough....
''And you think, just for 1 moment, that the FIM maybe, just maybe, employs a Pathologist to do such investigating?'' Not for a heartbeat. Do you...
''And you think, just for 1 moment, that the FIM maybe, just maybe, employs a Pathologist to do such investigating?''

Not for a heartbeat.

Do you seriously think a third party can just hire a pathologist to conduct a post mortem on somebody of their choosing?

I've got my head in my hands.
Did you even read the letter from SVEMO?

Sweden is not a third world country. I can only assume that there are policies and procedures in place in Sweden that handle cause of death investigations in a professional manner and use professional state employed pathologists. I can also only assume that their findings were forwarded to the race sanctioning body, which in turn, wrote Leatt a letter clearing them of any responsibility in the death.
CamP
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11/10/2013 2:33pm Edited Date/Time 11/10/2013 2:39pm
You misunderstood. The third party is the racing organization, who can investigate the circumstances of a death but causes of death are determined by a Pathologist...
You misunderstood.

The third party is the racing organization, who can investigate the circumstances of a death but causes of death are determined by a Pathologist or Coroner, contrary to what CamP believes.

Only the immediate relatives of the deceased or a legally authorised authority can appoint a pathologist or coroner to perform a post mortem, which clearly excludes the Federation of International Motorcycling.

Is that clear enough for you?
I never said or implied that SVEMO handled the autopsy. Obviously, SVEMO was informed about the cause of death after the official autopsy was performed, and then SVEMO cleared Leatt of any responsibility in the death.

The Shop

11/11/2013 1:02am Edited Date/Time 11/11/2013 1:22am
Timely thread....

I have never worn a brace...

I did a 70' lawn dart today. As I came up a 3rd gear jump face, I noticed a flagger frantically waving for a downed rider in the landing zone. I could not / did not see the flagger till I was up the jump face (about 6' tall) a bit, and instinct kicked in. I chopped the throttle a bit. Crap. My helmet has dirt on the middle back..plus my head got driven down so hard my throat is sore. I can hardly swallow water. Concussion for sure, though I had no LOC. I can recall the day leading up to the crash...the crash...and the immediate aftermath.... But once I stood up..interestingly...the next 10 minute or so are vague. I can probably recall about 2-3 minutes of the 10. So it was a good hit for sure. Now I need to have my helmet checked...and may need to get a new one. Dammit!

I GUARANTEE that if a LEATT user had film of themselves crashing like this...and they were wearing a LEATT...they would be screaming "See see see...I 100% guaranteed would have broken my neck! It saved my life...cant you see. LOOK at that crash!" Well I just had that crash...and no real damage (brain bruise and ego not withstanding)

The LEATT is tested for a specific scenario...and it is not tested to see what dangers is ADDS in others. I see kids all the time wearing it over their jerseys...with the thoracis strut just sticking out. Think about a tuck and roll...and what happens if you hook that strut. There are instances where riders have been hurt by struts catching (tension injury...like getting executed by handing). Pretty scary. In all fairness..LEATT has addressed this by 'recommending' the strut not be exposed...but I think they do not go far enough in this respect, because people like to wear them that way...and they dont want to impact sales. There is also no way to ethically do true clinical tests. It is all a bunch of engineering models and bio mechanical models. This is the problem. There is simply NO WAY to do a double blind test for the dynamics if any specific event.

I just dont know. Today certainly scared me... Not sure where I stand on this. I personally think that getting some training in gymnastics, tumbling and trampoline would be FAR more effective in preventing neck injuries than any brace ever will be. Watch a trampoline and tumbling gymnast do crash dives some time...and you will understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp0mICeVMVA
JM485
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11/11/2013 8:08am
Timely thread.... I have never worn a brace... I did a 70' lawn dart today. As I came up a 3rd gear jump face, I noticed...
Timely thread....

I have never worn a brace...

I did a 70' lawn dart today. As I came up a 3rd gear jump face, I noticed a flagger frantically waving for a downed rider in the landing zone. I could not / did not see the flagger till I was up the jump face (about 6' tall) a bit, and instinct kicked in. I chopped the throttle a bit. Crap. My helmet has dirt on the middle back..plus my head got driven down so hard my throat is sore. I can hardly swallow water. Concussion for sure, though I had no LOC. I can recall the day leading up to the crash...the crash...and the immediate aftermath.... But once I stood up..interestingly...the next 10 minute or so are vague. I can probably recall about 2-3 minutes of the 10. So it was a good hit for sure. Now I need to have my helmet checked...and may need to get a new one. Dammit!

I GUARANTEE that if a LEATT user had film of themselves crashing like this...and they were wearing a LEATT...they would be screaming "See see see...I 100% guaranteed would have broken my neck! It saved my life...cant you see. LOOK at that crash!" Well I just had that crash...and no real damage (brain bruise and ego not withstanding)

The LEATT is tested for a specific scenario...and it is not tested to see what dangers is ADDS in others. I see kids all the time wearing it over their jerseys...with the thoracis strut just sticking out. Think about a tuck and roll...and what happens if you hook that strut. There are instances where riders have been hurt by struts catching (tension injury...like getting executed by handing). Pretty scary. In all fairness..LEATT has addressed this by 'recommending' the strut not be exposed...but I think they do not go far enough in this respect, because people like to wear them that way...and they dont want to impact sales. There is also no way to ethically do true clinical tests. It is all a bunch of engineering models and bio mechanical models. This is the problem. There is simply NO WAY to do a double blind test for the dynamics if any specific event.

I just dont know. Today certainly scared me... Not sure where I stand on this. I personally think that getting some training in gymnastics, tumbling and trampoline would be FAR more effective in preventing neck injuries than any brace ever will be. Watch a trampoline and tumbling gymnast do crash dives some time...and you will understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp0mICeVMVA
I'm sorry, but your logic is rediculous. I am very happy you aren't hurt, but you are extremely lucky. So instead of counting your blessings and being thankful for your health, you though it would be a good idea to use your story to try and make it seem like neck braces are not necessary? It is pretty irresponsible to say a piece of protective equipment is not necessary just because you got lucky. You seriously think that gymnastics would help you? Sorry, but you aren't superman and I highly doubt that in a serious crash, like the one you had, that you would be able to react quick enough for that to help you in any way. Your entire argument is pretty rediculous, and pretty arrogant for someone who was as lucky as you.
BLACKeR
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11/13/2013 9:10am
yeah, I joined just so I can get flamed in this thread, Laughing

whether you wear one or not is a personal decision and i don't think it makes you stupid either way. there is a never ending list of protective gear you can buy, few people wear all of it; we all draw the line somewhere. that said the one thing that i find most annoying about the neck braces are all the personal testimonials. i know dozens of people who have had their "lives saved" by neck braces, there are lots of people in this thread who would apparently be paralyzed or dead if it weren't for the neck brace. that just doesn't make sense. 10 years ago people weren't crashing and being paralyzed every weekend. i hear about just as many spinal injuries today as i did before braces.

i had a nice cartwheeling wreck last summer where i ended up lawn darting pretty good. i was dizzy, saw plenty of stars, had a real good headache, and a stiff neck for the rest of the season, but that was it. it struck me that if i had a neck brace on i would be able to tell everyone how it saved me life. i feel that 99% of the crashes where the brace "saved your life" its likely you would have been fine without it. i realize for the 1% eating though a straw that's no consolation.
mx836
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11/13/2013 7:13pm
BLACKeR wrote:
yeah, I joined just so I can get flamed in this thread, :laugh: whether you wear one or not is a personal decision and i don't...
yeah, I joined just so I can get flamed in this thread, Laughing

whether you wear one or not is a personal decision and i don't think it makes you stupid either way. there is a never ending list of protective gear you can buy, few people wear all of it; we all draw the line somewhere. that said the one thing that i find most annoying about the neck braces are all the personal testimonials. i know dozens of people who have had their "lives saved" by neck braces, there are lots of people in this thread who would apparently be paralyzed or dead if it weren't for the neck brace. that just doesn't make sense. 10 years ago people weren't crashing and being paralyzed every weekend. i hear about just as many spinal injuries today as i did before braces.

i had a nice cartwheeling wreck last summer where i ended up lawn darting pretty good. i was dizzy, saw plenty of stars, had a real good headache, and a stiff neck for the rest of the season, but that was it. it struck me that if i had a neck brace on i would be able to tell everyone how it saved me life. i feel that 99% of the crashes where the brace "saved your life" its likely you would have been fine without it. i realize for the 1% eating though a straw that's no consolation.
There's no reasoning in this thread. Wear one or your an idiot seems to be the consensus.
JM485
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11/13/2013 8:48pm
mx836 wrote:
There's no reasoning in this thread. Wear one or your an idiot seems to be the consensus.
Um, no. Either post up something that is actually supported by evidence, not a passionate opinion, or you are an idiot seems to be the theme. Did you even read the first few pages? There are plenty of factual posts with good information, but there are also a few others that have no substance whatsoever, just an angry rant. Nobody has any problem with people posting educated opinions here.
mx836
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11/15/2013 4:39pm
mx836 wrote:
There's no reasoning in this thread. Wear one or your an idiot seems to be the consensus.
JM485 wrote:
Um, no. Either post up something that is actually supported by evidence, not a passionate opinion, or you are an idiot seems to be the theme...
Um, no. Either post up something that is actually supported by evidence, not a passionate opinion, or you are an idiot seems to be the theme. Did you even read the first few pages? There are plenty of factual posts with good information, but there are also a few others that have no substance whatsoever, just an angry rant. Nobody has any problem with people posting educated opinions here.
Can you not read? I clearly said in one of my posts that I understand why people wear them and that is their choice. I however, don't want to wear one. It is an opinion thread dipshit. I was referring to how you can't have an opinion about not liking them without being attacked by the vitards (you). I'll do what I want, you do what you want. Now STFU.
JM485
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11/15/2013 8:02pm
I don't think we need to resort the telling each other that to be able to have a discussion. If you would calm down, I will be more than happy to respect your view. It is the damn near personal attacks in this thread that I have a problem with. I can't remember exactly who posted what in a 7 page thread, so if I misinterpreted what you said, I apologize. I'm not going to argue with someone who obviously can't keep a level head during a discussion, and to say that if you don't wear one you are an idiot is not the consensus here. I only said that there are many factual posts, but there are a lot of others based on nothing but wild ideas with no evidence to back them up. You are right in that this is an opinion thread, but don't you think that opinions should be based on evidence and facts, not only passion?
LocDawg
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11/15/2013 8:06pm
the only scientific proof we have is incredibly biased

till theres a 3RD PARTY, ITS ALL HEARSAY
mx836
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11/15/2013 9:40pm
JM485 wrote:
I don't think we need to resort the telling each other that to be able to have a discussion. If you would calm down, I will...
I don't think we need to resort the telling each other that to be able to have a discussion. If you would calm down, I will be more than happy to respect your view. It is the damn near personal attacks in this thread that I have a problem with. I can't remember exactly who posted what in a 7 page thread, so if I misinterpreted what you said, I apologize. I'm not going to argue with someone who obviously can't keep a level head during a discussion, and to say that if you don't wear one you are an idiot is not the consensus here. I only said that there are many factual posts, but there are a lot of others based on nothing but wild ideas with no evidence to back them up. You are right in that this is an opinion thread, but don't you think that opinions should be based on evidence and facts, not only passion?
Blah blah blah
JM485
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11/15/2013 10:28pm
Seriously? After what has happened tonight, none of this small stuff really matters. Events like that really put things in perspective, some things are worth worrying about, and others are not. RIP Kurt.
Outsider
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11/16/2013 3:46pm
JM485 wrote:
Um, no. Either post up something that is actually supported by evidence, not a passionate opinion, or you are an idiot seems to be the theme...
Um, no. Either post up something that is actually supported by evidence, not a passionate opinion, or you are an idiot seems to be the theme. Did you even read the first few pages? There are plenty of factual posts with good information, but there are also a few others that have no substance whatsoever, just an angry rant. Nobody has any problem with people posting educated opinions here.
STFU
JM485
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11/16/2013 6:40pm
JM485 wrote:
Um, no. Either post up something that is actually supported by evidence, not a passionate opinion, or you are an idiot seems to be the theme...
Um, no. Either post up something that is actually supported by evidence, not a passionate opinion, or you are an idiot seems to be the theme. Did you even read the first few pages? There are plenty of factual posts with good information, but there are also a few others that have no substance whatsoever, just an angry rant. Nobody has any problem with people posting educated opinions here.
Outsider wrote:
STFU
Alright, fine. Enjoy this thread while it lasts, hopefully we can have an educated discussion one day without resorting to these types of posts. I'll be the bigger person here and end this argument now, I'm sorry I got involved.
Grizz
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11/16/2013 7:00pm
LOL you guys realize that you are pissed over a neck brace? HAHAHA
knobby101
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11/16/2013 9:16pm Edited Date/Time 11/16/2013 9:18pm
I'm fused on C6-7 and a couple of weeks ago i did a head plant and it didn't hurt right away, but, after an MRI last week i found out i broke one of the screws.. since there going in ... again, the Doc is going to plate up c5 with the other two.. anyone ever have that done, i know i'll need a brace, but how much movement am i going to lose?
11/16/2013 11:07pm
Look up at the ceiling.


What just happened anatomically?


Hyperextension.


Clearly, violent hyperextension may cause damage. It's wonderful there are companies to try and prevent this. However, your body is designed by nature (or God/Allah/Budah/Whoever) to hyperextend at that point, or you would not be able to look up.

...Now is lawn darting more dangerous, or having the possibility for your neck to hyperextend so you don't lawndart?

I don't know. When some third party shows me it'll help me on my way to buying a neck brace.

E.G.
One guy hyperextending will disperse energy elsewhere and save you, another guy says lawndarting will compress your spine and paralyze you.

One guy says hyperextending will paralyze you, another guy says lawndarting will disperse energy elsewhere and save you.

But since I don't immediately say "they can only help you, it can't hurt to have one on" I'm an asshole.

So I should say: "Well, heck they can't hurt you right? They can only help you." Now camP and JM are finally relieved and no longer smashing there foreheads into the keyboard because I have finally seen the light that these devices can only help people. I'm ordering one now.
harvdog412
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11/17/2013 5:13am
knobby101 wrote:
I'm fused on C6-7 and a couple of weeks ago i did a head plant and it didn't hurt right away, but, after an MRI last...
I'm fused on C6-7 and a couple of weeks ago i did a head plant and it didn't hurt right away, but, after an MRI last week i found out i broke one of the screws.. since there going in ... again, the Doc is going to plate up c5 with the other two.. anyone ever have that done, i know i'll need a brace, but how much movement am i going to lose?
I'm fused C2-C7 most movement in your neck is between C1(atlas) and C2(axias). I won't ride without my leatt, restriction of movement has never been an issue for me personally.
Swizbee42
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11/17/2013 5:55am
i crashed 4th wide open on a 450 and broke my collarbone from lawn darting and also compound fracture tibia and 2 places on my fibula, no doubt that my leatt saved my neck, also no doubt that it was the cause of my collarbone. i switched to an alpinestars brace because it allows a bit more movement. the last time i went to the track i forgot it at home and i did notice that i felt a lot less restricted. though i did not feel as safe without it on.
Rooster579
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11/17/2013 7:05am
Bottom line is.... Just go get an Atlas put it on and go ride. If you wreck and break you neck with it on. Then it probably would have been worse without it. If you wreck and you don't have it on and you break your neck then you will always wonder if a neck brace would have saved you. Just quit being a bonehead.
Socket946
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11/17/2013 8:28am
Look up at the ceiling. What just happened anatomically? Hyperextension. Clearly, violent hyperextension may cause damage. It's wonderful there are companies to try and prevent this...
Look up at the ceiling.


What just happened anatomically?


Hyperextension.


Clearly, violent hyperextension may cause damage. It's wonderful there are companies to try and prevent this. However, your body is designed by nature (or God/Allah/Budah/Whoever) to hyperextend at that point, or you would not be able to look up.

...Now is lawn darting more dangerous, or having the possibility for your neck to hyperextend so you don't lawndart?

I don't know. When some third party shows me it'll help me on my way to buying a neck brace.

E.G.
One guy hyperextending will disperse energy elsewhere and save you, another guy says lawndarting will compress your spine and paralyze you.

One guy says hyperextending will paralyze you, another guy says lawndarting will disperse energy elsewhere and save you.

But since I don't immediately say "they can only help you, it can't hurt to have one on" I'm an asshole.

So I should say: "Well, heck they can't hurt you right? They can only help you." Now camP and JM are finally relieved and no longer smashing there foreheads into the keyboard because I have finally seen the light that these devices can only help people. I'm ordering one now.
Are you a doctor? What medical field do you study in? What kind of medical reports have you written, and had published on this subject?
Moto_Geek
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11/17/2013 12:15pm
I hit a branch pretty good with my helmet almost ripping me off the bike. This thing works in a lot more situations then you can think of. You can still tuck your body if your going head first. But it saved me from a sprain or strained neck injury many times. You will see me not were it for slow riding but anything fast and dangerous, I definitely have it on.
mauidex
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11/18/2013 6:17pm
dude............right, wrong, indifferent.......you are a PAID representative of LEATT.............good or bad you are not gong to speak any truths that reflect negatively on your company and your paycheck..............so quit spinning it your way..............lots and lots of questons and concerns............NO, yes I said NO evidence that it works or it creates other problems...............so cut the BS and let everyone decide for themselves if it is bad, good, or anything else.................and the bottom line is sit on the couch if it is a huge concern.........moto and the various disciplines did very well for oh 40 or 50 years before neckbraces........
harvdog412
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11/18/2013 7:00pm
mauidex wrote:
dude............right, wrong, indifferent.......you are a PAID representative of LEATT.............good or bad you are not gong to speak any truths that reflect negatively on your company and...
dude............right, wrong, indifferent.......you are a PAID representative of LEATT.............good or bad you are not gong to speak any truths that reflect negatively on your company and your paycheck..............so quit spinning it your way..............lots and lots of questons and concerns............NO, yes I said NO evidence that it works or it creates other problems...............so cut the BS and let everyone decide for themselves if it is bad, good, or anything else.................and the bottom line is sit on the couch if it is a huge concern.........moto and the various disciplines did very well for oh 40 or 50 years before neckbraces........
Another idiot
jemcee
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11/18/2013 7:13pm
knobby101 wrote:
I'm fused on C6-7 and a couple of weeks ago i did a head plant and it didn't hurt right away, but, after an MRI last...
I'm fused on C6-7 and a couple of weeks ago i did a head plant and it didn't hurt right away, but, after an MRI last week i found out i broke one of the screws.. since there going in ... again, the Doc is going to plate up c5 with the other two.. anyone ever have that done, i know i'll need a brace, but how much movement am i going to lose?
I'm fused too except I don't really have a c6 anymore as it pretty much exploded into my spinal cord and arteries and all that shit haha

mauidex
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11/18/2013 8:03pm
hey harvdog FUCK OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Madmax31
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11/19/2013 4:57am
mauidex wrote:
dude............right, wrong, indifferent.......you are a PAID representative of LEATT.............good or bad you are not gong to speak any truths that reflect negatively on your company and...
dude............right, wrong, indifferent.......you are a PAID representative of LEATT.............good or bad you are not gong to speak any truths that reflect negatively on your company and your paycheck..............so quit spinning it your way..............lots and lots of questons and concerns............NO, yes I said NO evidence that it works or it creates other problems...............so cut the BS and let everyone decide for themselves if it is bad, good, or anything else.................and the bottom line is sit on the couch if it is a huge concern.........moto and the various disciplines did very well for oh 40 or 50 years before neckbraces........
harvdog412 wrote:
Another idiot
Total..............................moron!

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