Motorcycle Helmets are Obsolete One Hit Wonders

Related:
Create New Tag

8/28/2019 7:24 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2019 5:26 PM

Edit: After following the thread provided by CSlacker (not sure he read his links?) it turns out Kali is producing a helmet, and has been, that appears to be the revolution I started this thread about. They fly under the radar to me, apparently they are big in bicycles but the technology is WORLD CLASS!

The lightest DOT approved full face helmet, smaller due to no air gap, with multi directional torsion technolgy that is self healing (If I'm reading it correctly).

Forget the thread and check out this helmet lineup!

https://www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/Full-Face-Helmets,52/Kali-Protectives/Shiva-2-0,18676







Even the best 6D requires refurbishing after an impact. With football helmets able to take multiple impacts this is just not acceptable anymore. Not only are we being ripped off but the risk of further injury using a compromised helmet put hundreds of thousands at greater risk unknowingly.

Let's hope Vicis is working on a solution for our industry like what they have developed for the NFL. It took the 6D model and made it much better. There is a safety revolution taking place and the motorcycle industry is far behind. The time for Motorcycle helmet standards worldwide to advance to a much higher level is now and revolutionize head injury protection in MX/SX.

"The idea of replacing styrofoam layers with a multitude of elastic columns that deform and absorb the force of the impact is not new, We featured the 6D ATR-1 helmet almost four years ago, and the Vicis design clearly built on it.

However, the Zero1 lid takes things to the next level, introducing a much larger number of "support columns" in the design, also providing omnidirectional impact absorption.

This means that both linear and rotational impacts are dealt with, and the Zero1 helmet offers the same level of protection for shocks occurring in any part of the shell and regardless of the direction of the initial force vector."


https://www.autoevolution.com/news/vicis-zero1-american-football-helmets-could-revolutionize-motorcycling-video-photo-gallery-103801.html





|

2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

8/28/2019 7:26 AM

Helmets protect skulls, not brains.

|

8/28/2019 7:33 AM

I would think that there are much higher velocity forces involved in motorcycle crashes and also a need to have a much more puncture and crack resistant shell material. Football needs to design a helmet for numerous mild to moderate impacts at low speeds. Motorcycle helmets serve a much different role in my opinion.

|

8/28/2019 7:40 AM

Im not a helmet expert, just my thoughts..

You can use motorcycle helmets multiple times so long as the EPS isnt compressed and the helmet is still structurally sound - meaning the EPS and outer shell arent separated and the outer shell isnt cracked. In other words, if its not damaged then its still ok.

Difference is motorcycle accidents happen at 20mph+ and that usually damages helmets. Football isnt like that.

But really when will we realize that repeatedly slamming yourself into other people is bad for you? Football is barbaric and we are just now seeing it. Less and less kids are allowed to play it in school because of it.

|

8/28/2019 7:41 AM

motoGleamer wrote:

I would think that there are much higher velocity forces involved in motorcycle crashes and also a need to have a much more puncture and crack resistant shell material. Football needs to design a helmet for numerous mild to moderate impacts at low speeds. Motorcycle helmets serve a much different role in my opinion.

Yes you would think so, but the fastest humans can run 28 mph. Put 2 head to head like on a kickoff and you have 56 mph, a speed virtually never attained in MX. MX is FULL of mild and moderate impacts. I'd venture to say football helmets are far more crack resistant now that they are using flexible shells.

|

2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

8/28/2019 7:41 AM

I don't know. Some are running at 20 mph. An impact could be 40+ mph! Helmet to helmet, a bit harder surface than maybe sand. I know we ride on harder surface too. The football helmet is taking a whole bunch of impact constantly. The moto helmet only hardly ever, we hope! Just pointing out the variances.

|

8/28/2019 7:43 AM

motoGleamer wrote:

I would think that there are much higher velocity forces involved in motorcycle crashes and also a need to have a much more puncture and crack resistant shell material. Football needs to design a helmet for numerous mild to moderate impacts at low speeds. Motorcycle helmets serve a much different role in my opinion.

This. Football helmets are designed for multiple impacts because, well, you know you are going to get hit in the head, many times. You don't expect to smack the ground hard a couple dozen times every ride. The helmet is made to protect you for the big one to the best of it's abilities. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like common sense to me.

|

8/28/2019 7:53 AM

motoGleamer wrote:

I would think that there are much higher velocity forces involved in motorcycle crashes and also a need to have a much more puncture and crack resistant shell material. Football needs to design a helmet for numerous mild to moderate impacts at low speeds. Motorcycle helmets serve a much different role in my opinion.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Yes you would think so, but the fastest humans can run 28 mph. Put 2 head to head like on a kickoff and you have 56 mph, a speed virtually never attained in MX. MX is FULL of mild and moderate impacts. I'd venture to say football helmets are far more crack resistant now that they are using flexible shells.

Kinetic energy is the related to square of velocity so 28 mph vs 28 mph is not the same as 56 mph vs the ground. In your example it would have to be two people running at almost 40mph each to have the same impact energy.

But a helmet to helmet impact is also not the same as helmet to pavement or helmet to tree or rock in terms of the hardness of the object being struck or pressure of impact on the shell. Not to mention that it shouldnt be a anticipated that you will be sustaining high impact head injuries on a routine basis while riding a motorcycle.

|

8/28/2019 7:59 AM

motoGleamer wrote:

I would think that there are much higher velocity forces involved in motorcycle crashes and also a need to have a much more puncture and crack resistant shell material. Football needs to design a helmet for numerous mild to moderate impacts at low speeds. Motorcycle helmets serve a much different role in my opinion.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Yes you would think so, but the fastest humans can run 28 mph. Put 2 head to head like on a kickoff and you have 56 mph, a speed virtually never attained in MX. MX is FULL of mild and moderate impacts. I'd venture to say football helmets are far more crack resistant now that they are using flexible shells.

That's actually not how physics work. The force of 2 objects(or humans) of equal mass moving at each other at 28 mph having a head on impact is equal to 1 object(or human) travelling at 28 mph hitting a wall or other immovable object.

|

8/28/2019 8:02 AM

motoGleamer wrote:

I would think that there are much higher velocity forces involved in motorcycle crashes and also a need to have a much more puncture and crack resistant shell material. Football needs to design a helmet for numerous mild to moderate impacts at low speeds. Motorcycle helmets serve a much different role in my opinion.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Yes you would think so, but the fastest humans can run 28 mph. Put 2 head to head like on a kickoff and you have 56 mph, a speed virtually never attained in MX. MX is FULL of mild and moderate impacts. I'd venture to say football helmets are far more crack resistant now that they are using flexible shells.

cslacker wrote:

That's actually not how physics work. The force of 2 objects(or humans) of equal mass moving at each other at 28 mph having a head on impact is equal to 1 object(or human) travelling at 28 mph hitting a wall or other immovable object.

I'm not going to argue with you but you are wrong and the formula for kinetic energy is 0.5mv^2

|

8/28/2019 8:12 AM

You can't put a price on brain cells. If it's trashed after one crash and it did its job I wouldn't mind buying another one.

|

Instagram: vanillaice782
Amateur helmet painter

8/28/2019 8:12 AM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Yes you would think so, but the fastest humans can run 28 mph. Put 2 head to head like on a kickoff and you have 56 mph, a speed virtually never attained in MX. MX is FULL of mild and moderate impacts. I'd venture to say football helmets are far more crack resistant now that they are using flexible shells.

cslacker wrote:

That's actually not how physics work. The force of 2 objects(or humans) of equal mass moving at each other at 28 mph having a head on impact is equal to 1 object(or human) travelling at 28 mph hitting a wall or other immovable object.

motoGleamer wrote:

I'm not going to argue with you but you are wrong and the formula for kinetic energy is 0.5mv^2

I understand the math of it. In both cases velocity would change from 28 mph to 0 if mass of both players was equal and they were traveling the same speed. Don't worry about it. Jaime from the MythBusters got it wrong too... they had to do a full episode proving him wrong:

|

8/28/2019 8:16 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2019 8:17 AM

motoGleamer wrote:

I would think that there are much higher velocity forces involved in motorcycle crashes and also a need to have a much more puncture and crack resistant shell material. Football needs to design a helmet for numerous mild to moderate impacts at low speeds. Motorcycle helmets serve a much different role in my opinion.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Yes you would think so, but the fastest humans can run 28 mph. Put 2 head to head like on a kickoff and you have 56 mph, a speed virtually never attained in MX. MX is FULL of mild and moderate impacts. I'd venture to say football helmets are far more crack resistant now that they are using flexible shells.

cslacker wrote:

That's actually not how physics work. The force of 2 objects(or humans) of equal mass moving at each other at 28 mph having a head on impact is equal to 1 object(or human) travelling at 28 mph hitting a wall or other immovable object.

Conservation of momentum.

As they say, t's not the fall that will kill you, it's the sudden stop. Deceleration is the killer.

No helmet will ever prevent your brain from smashing into your skull during a sudden impact. That is simply impossible. All a helmet does is protect your skull from splitting open like a pumpkin.

|

8/28/2019 8:28 AM

Jeremy Macbeth wrote:

Conservation of momentum.

As they say, t's not the fall that will kill you, it's the sudden stop. Deceleration is the killer.

No helmet will ever prevent your brain from smashing into your skull during a sudden impact. That is simply impossible. All a helmet does is protect your skull from splitting open like a pumpkin.

It definitely helps the brain too... it’s softens the blow. Absorbs the impact causing less force to the skull AND brain.

|

8/28/2019 8:50 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2019 8:53 AM

deadlo wrote:

It definitely helps the brain too... it’s softens the blow. Absorbs the impact causing less force to the skull AND brain.

Correct. Helmets are designed to create inelastic collisions by transferring kinetic energy into heat and also slowing the impact process by a small amount therefore reducing the impact on the brain.

|

8/28/2019 8:58 AM

cslacker wrote:

Correct. Helmets are designed to create inelastic collisions by transferring kinetic energy into heat and also slowing the impact process by a small amount therefore reducing the impact on the brain.

Yes, just like a crumple zone on a car.

|

2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

8/28/2019 9:03 AM

motoGleamer wrote:

I would think that there are much higher velocity forces involved in motorcycle crashes and also a need to have a much more puncture and crack resistant shell material. Football needs to design a helmet for numerous mild to moderate impacts at low speeds. Motorcycle helmets serve a much different role in my opinion.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Yes you would think so, but the fastest humans can run 28 mph. Put 2 head to head like on a kickoff and you have 56 mph, a speed virtually never attained in MX. MX is FULL of mild and moderate impacts. I'd venture to say football helmets are far more crack resistant now that they are using flexible shells.

That's two Michael johnsons running full speed head on. I couldn't see that being very likely in football

Don't get me wrong, I know they take some huge hits

|

8/28/2019 9:06 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2019 9:08 AM

cslacker wrote:

That's actually not how physics work. The force of 2 objects(or humans) of equal mass moving at each other at 28 mph having a head on impact is equal to 1 object(or human) travelling at 28 mph hitting a wall or other immovable object.

motoGleamer wrote:

I'm not going to argue with you but you are wrong and the formula for kinetic energy is 0.5mv^2

cslacker wrote:

I understand the math of it. In both cases velocity would change from 28 mph to 0 if mass of both players was equal and they were traveling the same speed. Don't worry about it. Jaime from the MythBusters got it wrong too... they had to do a full episode proving him wrong:

Those guys have been wrong plenty, just like debunkers. Just because you see it on TV doesn't make it so.
Let a 250lb fullback run head on into a 175lb cornerback and see what happens, it won't be a neutral event. But this is not about slide rules and engineers. This is about protecting your nugget. JS7 probably got a new Red Bull helmet every time he tipped over, but most of us will have multiple crashes in a season and use the same helmet for years.

Even todays obsolete technology could be improved with resilient liners rather than 1 and done. The type of memory styrofoam used to keep your jack from rattling in the trunk would be better than the stuff they use for helmets and styrofoam coolers.

|

2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

8/28/2019 9:11 AM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Yes you would think so, but the fastest humans can run 28 mph. Put 2 head to head like on a kickoff and you have 56 mph, a speed virtually never attained in MX. MX is FULL of mild and moderate impacts. I'd venture to say football helmets are far more crack resistant now that they are using flexible shells.

Me and my buddy were both running along at 15 mph, but I guess since two of us were running, we’re actually running 30 mph! This is good to know.

|

8/28/2019 9:15 AM

You complain about everything.
Don’t ride if you don’t want to buy a helmet after a crash. I just graduated college and couldn’t afford a quality helmet until now. I crashed and landed directly on my head In my SE4 and busted the Mips. I’m thankful nothing came of it. I didn’t ride for 8 months because I had bills to pay.

Are you really comparing us to the NFL? Probably the biggest sport in America... that’s laughable. I bet if someone came up to the teams and said hey you’ll reduce head injuries by 50% if you change your helmet every time a head on head hit takes place they would eat it up. Stop trying to put a choke hold on these companies. If everyone was like you we wouldn’t even have competing companies.

|

8/28/2019 9:21 AM

When a player in the NFL gets knocked out, they get a new helmet.

|

8/28/2019 9:23 AM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Yes, just like a crumple zone on a car.

One of the biggest problems is the size of the crumple zone possible with helmets. As you can see with football helmets they are getting larger and larger just like the original 6D was much larger than most previous helmets. The problem is that a larger helmet size produces it's own set of issues with rotational forces and increasing the likelihood of impact in the first place.

Much of the technology being used today by the NFL has been taken from the moto/MTB industry. Kali's Composite Fusion Plus was the first real advancement that I am aware of back in 2007... https://kaliprotectives.com/technology
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/rotational-concussions-and-ldl-real-world-data-kali-helmets-2017.html
Finally your point in general for this thread is flawed, crumple zones as you put it, are not designed for repetitive use. The amount of energy dispersed through heat is increasing with these new technologies however it is still not able to handle multiple heavy impacts.

Don't get me wrong, I love the new technology, but helmets will need to be replaced after a heavy impact for a long time to come...

|

8/28/2019 9:30 AM

Sooo what you’re getting at is we don’t need helmets. Makes sense.

|

8/28/2019 9:35 AM


|

We are the sum of a 1,000 lives. What we know is almost nothing at all.

8/28/2019 10:21 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2019 5:44 PM

cslacker wrote:

Correct. Helmets are designed to create inelastic collisions by transferring kinetic energy into heat and also slowing the impact process by a small amount therefore reducing the impact on the brain.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Yes, just like a crumple zone on a car.

cslacker wrote:

One of the biggest problems is the size of the crumple zone possible with helmets. As you can see with football helmets they are getting larger and larger just like the original 6D was much larger than most previous helmets. The problem is that a larger helmet size produces it's own set of issues with rotational forces and increasing the likelihood of impact in the first place.

Much of the technology being used today by the NFL has been taken from the moto/MTB industry. Kali's Composite Fusion Plus was the first real advancement that I am aware of back in 2007... https://kaliprotectives.com/technology
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/rotational-concussions-and-ldl-real-world-data-kali-helmets-2017.html
Finally your point in general for this thread is flawed, crumple zones as you put it, are not designed for repetitive use. The amount of energy dispersed through heat is increasing with these new technologies however it is still not able to handle multiple heavy impacts.

Don't get me wrong, I love the new technology, but helmets will need to be replaced after a heavy impact for a long time to come...

Thanks for the input on this thread, that's what debates are about.

The Vicis technology IS a crumple zone that is designed for repetitive use. Yes with a larger shell the rotational forces would increase. I think most would rather have a re-usable helmet that was say 5-10% larger externally but was much safer for concussion protection.

|

2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

8/28/2019 10:23 AM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Those guys have been wrong plenty, just like debunkers. Just because you see it on TV doesn't make it so.
Let a 250lb fullback run head on into a 175lb cornerback and see what happens, it won't be a neutral event. But this is not about slide rules and engineers. This is about protecting your nugget. JS7 probably got a new Red Bull helmet every time he tipped over, but most of us will have multiple crashes in a season and use the same helmet for years.

Even todays obsolete technology could be improved with resilient liners rather than 1 and done. The type of memory styrofoam used to keep your jack from rattling in the trunk would be better than the stuff they use for helmets and styrofoam coolers.

If your 175lb cornerback is running at 28 mph and your 250lb fullback is running at 22mph then the momentum of the cornerback is P=MV or 80kg x 12.5m/s=1000 kg m/s. The momentum of the fullback would be 114kg x 10m/s=1140 kg m/s. Since they are heading directly at each other in opposite direction we will make the cornerbacks velocity a -.... Total momentum would therefore be 1140 kg m/s + -1000 kg m/s or 140 kg m/s. After impact their combined mass would be 194kg. Momentum is conserved therefore it would remain 140 kg m/s. 194kg x V= 140kg m/s 140/194= .72 so combined V=.72 m/s or 1.6 mph in the direction the fullback was headed.

That would mean the impact for the fullback would be the equal of a 20.4 mph impact and the impact for the cornerback would be the equal of a 29.4 mph impact against a solid immovable object. Not even close to your 56 mph reference. I'll give you a tip... Slide rules and engineers are the ones coming up with these new ideas in protection so you shouldn't knock the science...

|

8/28/2019 10:25 AM

motoGleamer wrote:

I'm not going to argue with you but you are wrong and the formula for kinetic energy is 0.5mv^2

cslacker wrote:

I understand the math of it. In both cases velocity would change from 28 mph to 0 if mass of both players was equal and they were traveling the same speed. Don't worry about it. Jaime from the MythBusters got it wrong too... they had to do a full episode proving him wrong:

Johnny Depp wrote:

Those guys have been wrong plenty, just like debunkers. Just because you see it on TV doesn't make it so.
Let a 250lb fullback run head on into a 175lb cornerback and see what happens, it won't be a neutral event. But this is not about slide rules and engineers. This is about protecting your nugget. JS7 probably got a new Red Bull helmet every time he tipped over, but most of us will have multiple crashes in a season and use the same helmet for years.

Even todays obsolete technology could be improved with resilient liners rather than 1 and done. The type of memory styrofoam used to keep your jack from rattling in the trunk would be better than the stuff they use for helmets and styrofoam coolers.

That isn't a good example either. Different players can create different amounts of force through strength and quick twitch muscle fibers. Now yes, running at the same speed and unexpectedly hitting each other, the heavier mass wins. But many a smaller man will run over a larger one due to strength/power/speed/technique. Taking a hit tends to be worse than receiving. It's not a perfect science with all the variables involved.

Multilayering is definitely the future and is being used. Parts that will deform elastically to retain their shape for smaller impacts, combined with the rotational movement inside helmets and the types of foam and liners for the big impacts. The issue then arises on knowing when any part has been compromised.

|

8/28/2019 10:34 AM

Lots of negativity, I don't know why.

We see companies investing for our safety, that is pretty cool !

And I can't wait to see further improvements in other areas (chest protector/neck/back/collarbone for instance, that would make the dam thing mandatory!)

|

8/28/2019 10:55 AM

If there were better commercially viable solutions for our helmets than EPS, then someone would use it. No different than when 6D came up with their revolutionary design, it spurred competition. You think Fox, Bell, 6D, etc wouldn't jump at the chance to catapult themselves to the top of the helmet world?

Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door.

|

8/28/2019 11:33 AM

Depending upon era........ in college I used to have the pads switched out inside my football helmet (Riddell) at least a half dozen times Per Season..... hell... you could see the pads wearing out.....

|

www.bettercallsaul.com
Die Antwoord