Motocross Etiquette

Nerd
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Nerd
Edited Date/Time 1/25/2020 1:14pm
For the uninitiated, who seem to be confused, maybe I can help:

It seems like we’ve lost track of basic motocross etiquette. People seem to think you can leave a door wide open and it’s “not fair” for the (faster) guy behind you to try and go through that door.

Bullshit. It’s their *job* to go through that open door! It’s *your* job not to open it! Don’t leave the door open! And if you do, don’t act surprised when someone goes through that open door!

That’s how moto works! It’s simple, consistent, and historically accurate as well! This is how everybody has always judged cases of motocross etiquette, and that’s what this Ferrandis/Craig incident really is. It’s about etiquette. Who has the right of way? The rider in front! “For how long?” There’s no minimum amount of time someone needs to be in front to have the right of way. Whoever is ahead at the precise moment that a bad thing (collision) happens has the right to be wherever they are on the track *because* they’re ahead of the other person (as long as they are on the track).

Be aware of who’s in front and behind you, and act accordingly! If you do not act accordingly, it’s not up to anybody *else* to change racing etiquette so that the person who left the door open is absolved of all responsibility for their own actions! If you leave the door open when you know a faster racer (or *any* racer) is right on your ass, you fucked up! It’s that simple!

So, whoever’s wheel is behind when the two bikes hit, they’re the one who is at fault for whatever negative consequences result from the collision. Because either they tried to go through a door that wasn’t open enough (often resulting in a T-bone), or they let someone through their open door and then tried to close the door on them after it was too late.

This is how it works and has always worked.

Who is ahead here?
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Ingjr1
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Ingjr1 1/21/2020 9:03am
1/21/2020 9:03am
Ferrandis was so far behind before the corner a reasonable person knew he couldn't make the pass with out the pathetic attempt at a take out move.
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Ingjr1
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Ingjr1 1/21/2020 9:18am
1/21/2020 9:18am
Ingjr1 wrote:
Ferrandis was so far behind before the corner a reasonable person knew he couldn't make the pass with out the pathetic attempt at a take out...
Ferrandis was so far behind before the corner a reasonable person knew he couldn't make the pass with out the pathetic attempt at a take out move.
Basically the same thing JT said in his RX article.
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Nerd
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Nerd 1/21/2020 9:24am
1/21/2020 9:24am
It’s not a dead horse. This issue keeps coming up as “fans” (and the AMA) try to decide who is “at fault” for these incidents. Neither the fans, nor the AMA, are deciding these incidents in an unbiased fashion. What I explained above is the unbiased way we, as a sport, have always determined actual fault.

This is why I was on Windham’s side vs Vuillemin at Phoenix ‘04. Windham got there first and Vuillemin rode around the outside like he owned the track (after he had just tried to put Windham off the track a couple turns earlier).

Don’t leave the door open! It’s their job to go through open doors!
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Nerd
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Nerd 1/21/2020 9:25am
1/21/2020 9:25am
Ingjr1 wrote:
Basically the same thing JT said in his RX article.
JT is wrong.
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cbarber
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cbarber 1/21/2020 9:34am
1/21/2020 9:34am
thank god you made another thread about this!!
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MPJC
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MPJC 1/21/2020 9:35am
1/21/2020 9:35am
References to metaphorical doors clear everything right up.
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Nerd
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Nerd 1/21/2020 9:35am
1/21/2020 9:35am
It’s not just about this. It’s about all past and future similar issues regarding contact on the racetrack.
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GIwasB4
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GIwasB4 1/21/2020 9:37am
1/21/2020 9:37am
comment is invalid
Nerd
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Nerd 1/21/2020 9:38am
1/21/2020 9:38am
Any racers who disagree are biased.

The racer who reaches the intersection first is the racer who has the right of way.

If people disagree, what they’re saying is that racers should be able to leave a door wide open and not expect anybody to try and go through that door. It’s nonsense. This is professional racing.
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seth505
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seth505 1/21/2020 9:42am
1/21/2020 9:42am
Let me ponder this original topic and get back with you with my response.

Regards, seth505
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SEE ARE125
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SEE ARE125 1/21/2020 9:43am
1/21/2020 9:43am
I’m confused, I thought etiquette was when you hold the door open for people.
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jl0822
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jl0822 1/21/2020 9:51am
1/21/2020 9:51am
this is not a line choice issue, no one is arguing that craig left the door open, the issue is with the CONTACT during the pass. by your reasoning, if rider A is in front of rider B even by the smallest margins, okay to cross jump to protect the line...... mx common sense.... dont cross jump... dont stop at a landing..... dont ride wrong way... dont cut across the track to attempt a pass when that far behind....
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buzz06
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buzz06 1/21/2020 9:57am
1/21/2020 9:57am
Part of being a professional racer or any racer for that matter is developing good race craft. Understanding when time is on your side and making good line choices and good decisions. It was half way into the main of the 3rd round. There wasn’t a need to try and shove it up the inside there, he had plenty of time to make a better pass. I said it in another thread and I’ll say it again, ultimately his ambition outweighed his talent.
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Nerd
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Nerd 1/21/2020 9:58am
1/21/2020 9:58am
jl0822 wrote:
this is not a line choice issue, no one is arguing that craig left the door open, the issue is with the CONTACT during the pass...
this is not a line choice issue, no one is arguing that craig left the door open, the issue is with the CONTACT during the pass. by your reasoning, if rider A is in front of rider B even by the smallest margins, okay to cross jump to protect the line...... mx common sense.... dont cross jump... dont stop at a landing..... dont ride wrong way... dont cut across the track to attempt a pass when that far behind....
Cross-jumping is dirty. Any racer who cross-jumps on purpose, or who drifts across skimming whoops into other racers’ lines, should be dispensed with at the earliest opportunity.

But they do have the right of way. Racers must sort this out on the track. Friese used to do these things a lot. Racers just started taking him out immediately. He doesn’t do this much anymore.
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Nerd
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Nerd 1/21/2020 9:59am
1/21/2020 9:59am
buzz06 wrote:
Part of being a professional racer or any racer for that matter is developing good race craft. Understanding when time is on your side and making...
Part of being a professional racer or any racer for that matter is developing good race craft. Understanding when time is on your side and making good line choices and good decisions. It was half way into the main of the 3rd round. There wasn’t a need to try and shove it up the inside there, he had plenty of time to make a better pass. I said it in another thread and I’ll say it again, ultimately his ambition outweighed his talent.
Apply what you just said to Craig about racecraft and the conclusion changes. You’re applying an idea to only one of the two racers.
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MPJC
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MPJC 1/21/2020 10:06am
1/21/2020 10:06am
jl0822 wrote:
this is not a line choice issue, no one is arguing that craig left the door open, the issue is with the CONTACT during the pass...
this is not a line choice issue, no one is arguing that craig left the door open, the issue is with the CONTACT during the pass. by your reasoning, if rider A is in front of rider B even by the smallest margins, okay to cross jump to protect the line...... mx common sense.... dont cross jump... dont stop at a landing..... dont ride wrong way... dont cut across the track to attempt a pass when that far behind....
Nerd wrote:
Cross-jumping is dirty. Any racer who cross-jumps on purpose, or who drifts across skimming whoops into other racers’ lines, should be dispensed with at the earliest...
Cross-jumping is dirty. Any racer who cross-jumps on purpose, or who drifts across skimming whoops into other racers’ lines, should be dispensed with at the earliest opportunity.

But they do have the right of way. Racers must sort this out on the track. Friese used to do these things a lot. Racers just started taking him out immediately. He doesn’t do this much anymore.
It’s dirty but they have right it way? Sounds like a contradiction. You may reply with something like: “But it’s complicated”. But what this implies is that these situations can’t be reduced to something simple and easy to apply in all situations without discretion. That, however, is exactly what you’re trying to do. It won’t work, and it shouldn’t be that difficult to see why not.
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buzz06 1/21/2020 10:12am
1/21/2020 10:12am
buzz06 wrote:
Part of being a professional racer or any racer for that matter is developing good race craft. Understanding when time is on your side and making...
Part of being a professional racer or any racer for that matter is developing good race craft. Understanding when time is on your side and making good line choices and good decisions. It was half way into the main of the 3rd round. There wasn’t a need to try and shove it up the inside there, he had plenty of time to make a better pass. I said it in another thread and I’ll say it again, ultimately his ambition outweighed his talent.
Nerd wrote:
Apply what you just said to Craig about racecraft and the conclusion changes. You’re applying an idea to only one of the two racers.
Yes Craig left the door open but Tomac took the same exact line as Ferrandis and didn’t clean anyone out. That’s why I said ultimately it comes down to ambition outweighing talent. If he wouldn’t have lost the front and crashed into Craig none of these threads would exist.
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Nerd
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Nerd 1/21/2020 10:15am
1/21/2020 10:15am
MPJC wrote:
It’s dirty but they have right it way? Sounds like a contradiction. You may reply with something like: “But it’s complicated”. But what this implies is...
It’s dirty but they have right it way? Sounds like a contradiction. You may reply with something like: “But it’s complicated”. But what this implies is that these situations can’t be reduced to something simple and easy to apply in all situations without discretion. That, however, is exactly what you’re trying to do. It won’t work, and it shouldn’t be that difficult to see why not.
It’s not complicated. If you’re in front, you can go where you want. If you make it a habit to cross-jump or drift over in skimming whoops, you have the right of way in that moment, but the other racers (not the AMA) should and will start taking you out at every opportunity.

If you’re on the freeway and randomly slam on the brakes and get rear-ended, it’s wrong to do, but the person who hits you is legally at fault for the collision as they should’ve left enough room to be able to stop.

No contradictions. It’s not complicated.
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Nerd
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Nerd 1/21/2020 10:18am
1/21/2020 10:18am
buzz06 wrote:
Yes Craig left the door open but Tomac took the same exact line as Ferrandis and didn’t clean anyone out. That’s why I said ultimately it...
Yes Craig left the door open but Tomac took the same exact line as Ferrandis and didn’t clean anyone out. That’s why I said ultimately it comes down to ambition outweighing talent. If he wouldn’t have lost the front and crashed into Craig none of these threads would exist.
Because when Tomac did it, Webb checked up, got off the gas, and dived underneath! That’s what Craig should’ve done.
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cbarber 1/21/2020 10:19am
1/21/2020 10:19am
MPJC wrote:
It’s dirty but they have right it way? Sounds like a contradiction. You may reply with something like: “But it’s complicated”. But what this implies is...
It’s dirty but they have right it way? Sounds like a contradiction. You may reply with something like: “But it’s complicated”. But what this implies is that these situations can’t be reduced to something simple and easy to apply in all situations without discretion. That, however, is exactly what you’re trying to do. It won’t work, and it shouldn’t be that difficult to see why not.
Nerd wrote:
It’s not complicated. If you’re in front, you can go where you want. If you make it a habit to cross-jump or drift over in skimming...
It’s not complicated. If you’re in front, you can go where you want. If you make it a habit to cross-jump or drift over in skimming whoops, you have the right of way in that moment, but the other racers (not the AMA) should and will start taking you out at every opportunity.

If you’re on the freeway and randomly slam on the brakes and get rear-ended, it’s wrong to do, but the person who hits you is legally at fault for the collision as they should’ve left enough room to be able to stop.

No contradictions. It’s not complicated.
But...If I am on the freeway passing the guy next to me and my front bumper gets past his and I make my move into his line, its now his problem to deal with. I can go wherever I want because I am ahead right?
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Nerd
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Nerd 1/21/2020 10:24am
1/21/2020 10:24am
cbarber wrote:
But...If I am on the freeway passing the guy next to me and my front bumper gets past his and I make my move into his...
But...If I am on the freeway passing the guy next to me and my front bumper gets past his and I make my move into his line, its now his problem to deal with. I can go wherever I want because I am ahead right?
If someone is alongside *on a straightaway* and you’re slightly ahead, and you intentionally turn hard left or right into them in the middle of a straightaway, that’s bad etiquette.

Same.
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MPJC
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MPJC 1/21/2020 10:25am
1/21/2020 10:25am
MPJC wrote:
It’s dirty but they have right it way? Sounds like a contradiction. You may reply with something like: “But it’s complicated”. But what this implies is...
It’s dirty but they have right it way? Sounds like a contradiction. You may reply with something like: “But it’s complicated”. But what this implies is that these situations can’t be reduced to something simple and easy to apply in all situations without discretion. That, however, is exactly what you’re trying to do. It won’t work, and it shouldn’t be that difficult to see why not.
Nerd wrote:
It’s not complicated. If you’re in front, you can go where you want. If you make it a habit to cross-jump or drift over in skimming...
It’s not complicated. If you’re in front, you can go where you want. If you make it a habit to cross-jump or drift over in skimming whoops, you have the right of way in that moment, but the other racers (not the AMA) should and will start taking you out at every opportunity.

If you’re on the freeway and randomly slam on the brakes and get rear-ended, it’s wrong to do, but the person who hits you is legally at fault for the collision as they should’ve left enough room to be able to stop.

No contradictions. It’s not complicated.
This is strange. I've never met anyone who thinks that cross jumping is ok. The concept of right of way doesn't enter into it. This isn't the freeway. The concept of right of way enters into a determination of who is legally liable when someone is rear-ended in traffic, but again, that doesn't mean that it's ok to randomly slam on your brakes in traffic. I'm pretty sure that if the police observed someone randomly slamming on their brakes while driving they'd write them up for dangerous driving. You seem to be operating under the assumption that there's some simple principle that is key, and if we can identify it and apply it, all ambiguity and need for human judgment will vanish. That can't work - especially when we're talking about something as inherently subjective as etiquette - something that is based on implicit, shared understandings that only exist in so far as people accept them.
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cbarber
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cbarber 1/21/2020 10:25am
1/21/2020 10:25am
cbarber wrote:
But...If I am on the freeway passing the guy next to me and my front bumper gets past his and I make my move into his...
But...If I am on the freeway passing the guy next to me and my front bumper gets past his and I make my move into his line, its now his problem to deal with. I can go wherever I want because I am ahead right?
Nerd wrote:
If someone is alongside *on a straightaway* and you’re slightly ahead, and you intentionally turn hard left or right into them in the middle of a...
If someone is alongside *on a straightaway* and you’re slightly ahead, and you intentionally turn hard left or right into them in the middle of a straightaway, that’s bad etiquette.

Same.
see your pic you posted above for reference.
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