Moto is on the Decline?

colorado2day
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12/12/2016 6:07pm Edited Date/Time 12/12/2016 6:27pm
How about a synopsis ?

Motorcycling is still one of the the least expensive motorsports.

Yes prices have gone up. But prices for everything has risen.

MX is not as popular as it once was, mainly thanks to Supercross type obstacles at local tracks above the average Joe's skill level. Supercross is an elite sport. Motocross was for the masses.

Small EV Motorcycles could be the future to get kids interested in riding. If classes were promoted at Loretta Lynn's and locally that may boost the US EV Industry.
Riding EV's could get more kids interested in racing and riding motocross. And Motocross Riding area for EV's in Urban Areas are definitely possible without pissing off the NIMBY's.

Look at small EV's as stepping stone. Easier to maintain and cheaper and less complicated to operate than the current crop of mini bikes.

UTV's (Razors and such) are definitely not the answer. Drinking and smoking were not something we ever did WHILE riding, kinda takes the health benefits of being outdoors right out the window, Drivers of UTV's in the mountains have no regards for stay the trail and have already destroyed most Mountain Passes in the Rockies. What was at one time challenging 4WD roads and trails are now freeways devoid of loose rocks 100's of feet wide from UTVs not staying the trail. UTV's will ruin it for all of us.

EFI 2 strokes will cost less to purchase and maintain than 4 strokes. 2 Strokes are fun to ride, lighter, make less noise and not as intimidating as a 4 stroke. See the Beta X -Trainer. But with EFI ? If 2 stokes that cost less to purchase can't save the sport then I guess we are out of luck.

If you still want to ride and have fun, try Dual Sport. I ride out of my garage and can ride mostly off road for literally thousands of miles if I wished. 2 strokes can be street registered in most states and most modern MX bikes can be adopted for Dual Sport riding. And with a license plate you can Moto lots of places !

Dual Sport Examples















EFI 2 Stroke KTM

endurox
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12/12/2016 8:27pm
Idaho street legal. Personally I don't know why all the manufactures have their corporate offices in a state that is so far left and anti off road. All the motorcycle manufactures should move out just like Toyota, Nissan and Honda Car corporation did.


kzizok
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12/12/2016 8:31pm Edited Date/Time 12/12/2016 8:37pm
[b]How about a synopsis ?[/b] Motorcycling is still one of the the least expensive motorsports. Yes prices have gone up. But prices for everything has risen...
How about a synopsis ?

Motorcycling is still one of the the least expensive motorsports.

Yes prices have gone up. But prices for everything has risen.

MX is not as popular as it once was, mainly thanks to Supercross type obstacles at local tracks above the average Joe's skill level. Supercross is an elite sport. Motocross was for the masses.

Small EV Motorcycles could be the future to get kids interested in riding. If classes were promoted at Loretta Lynn's and locally that may boost the US EV Industry.
Riding EV's could get more kids interested in racing and riding motocross. And Motocross Riding area for EV's in Urban Areas are definitely possible without pissing off the NIMBY's.

Look at small EV's as stepping stone. Easier to maintain and cheaper and less complicated to operate than the current crop of mini bikes.

UTV's (Razors and such) are definitely not the answer. Drinking and smoking were not something we ever did WHILE riding, kinda takes the health benefits of being outdoors right out the window, Drivers of UTV's in the mountains have no regards for stay the trail and have already destroyed most Mountain Passes in the Rockies. What was at one time challenging 4WD roads and trails are now freeways devoid of loose rocks 100's of feet wide from UTVs not staying the trail. UTV's will ruin it for all of us.

EFI 2 strokes will cost less to purchase and maintain than 4 strokes. 2 Strokes are fun to ride, lighter, make less noise and not as intimidating as a 4 stroke. See the Beta X -Trainer. But with EFI ? If 2 stokes that cost less to purchase can't save the sport then I guess we are out of luck.

If you still want to ride and have fun, try Dual Sport. I ride out of my garage and can ride mostly off road for literally thousands of miles if I wished. 2 strokes can be street registered in most states and most modern MX bikes can be adopted for Dual Sport riding. And with a license plate you can Moto lots of places !

Dual Sport Examples















EFI 2 Stroke KTM

Synopsis of what? Its certainly not a synopsis of the thread. More like a synopsis of your erratic, unfounded, unrelated, and throughly confusing posts. Still have no clue in regards to your obsession over EFI and why it's of paramount importance. Carbureted 2T's are categorically excluded? Dual sports to help the decline of moto? EV or no EV? Or, EV with caveats that only you've defined? How did you extrapolate the mention of UTV's, and their cost, to being a possible solution to the decline of moto?
KirkChandler
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12/12/2016 9:20pm
JMX82 wrote:
This story just happened to be today's newspaper. I ran it trough google translate so might be bit poor English but I think you can get...
This story just happened to be today's newspaper. I ran it trough google translate so might be bit poor English but I think you can get the picture...




That's just crazy. Time to immigrate to a more Moto friendly country.

The Shop

colorado2day
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12/12/2016 9:31pm
Yo buddy, how this for a synopsis of your take ?

Fuel injection is what it will take to bring back 2 strokes. Older carburetated 2 strokes are great. But sales will pick up when fuel injected models are offered. Where you against EFI on 4 strokes ?

Dual sporting is what all retired MXers should aspire to. Dual Sport is not gay unless you make it that way.

EVs for kids will open up urban riding areas.

UTVs are for guys who don't have the skills to ride.

The cost of UTVs proves that posers don't care about the cost. They just wanna pose.
12/12/2016 9:56pm Edited Date/Time 12/12/2016 9:57pm
I think this is an important conversation to have and I firmly believe that there have been a number of valid points made thus far. Like many of you, I don't any suggestions that would fix the problem as a whole, but I do have a few thoughts. This may not add any value to the conversation, but I thought I would share them anyways.

1. More people = less places to ride as those people need places to live: If you are unhappy with the riding opportunities in your area/state and it is a priority for you, then I would encourage you to move to more accommodating states if possible. However, there are opportunity costs to every decision we make in life and a lack of riding opportunities within a reasonable distance is perhaps one such opportunity cost to choosing to live in a heavily populated city or region, where your pay will most likely be considerably higher than what you could expect to make elsewhere.

2. Tracks closing: Land owners might build a track for a number of reasons, but its hard to deny that the majority do it with the expectation that they will see some profit from their hard work to build, maintain, and operate the track. When those profits don't materialize, then they look for other ways to profit from the land usually by selling to a developer who might simply sit on the land for years until the land is worth what they want it to be. Land will only become more scarce moving forward, thereby increasing its value, so expect this trend to continue.

3. Non-profit organization = Although impractical for some, it might be worth looking into forming a non-profit organization (with a large group of fellow riders in your area) to buy a piece of land to build a track on and then run it like a co-op. Require members to pay a nominal fee and work a set number of hours each year at the track as volunteers to pick weeds, flag during practices/races, operate equipment, etc. This has worked in the city where I live since the 1940s and members in good-standing can ride most any day of the year. Access is controlled by a large gate that can be opened via electronic proximity card. Member caught letting non-members ride are locked-out/banned for a set period of time, or required to pay a fine to regain access. Operating dollars come from member fees. $700 a year if you prefer to not put in your 40 volunteer hours a year, or around $40 a year if you do put in your 40 hours of work. Additional funds are raised through paid public practices (usually the day before a race), which allows anyone and everyone to come ride for like $20 bucks. The number of races are limited so that people don't get burnt out, but the money from those races goes a long way towards keeping the place open. The reason this works is because no single person controls the land and the track is able to get by with less because no one is putting any money in their pocket, so the lure of selling to a developer is a moot point.

4. Strength in Numbers = Whether you like it or not, lobbyists and lobbying greatly dictates what happens in government. One of the biggest issues related to closing land to riding is the fact that environmentalist have long been effective organizers, or "joiners" if you will. They know how government works and they use those processes to their advantage. They engage with land managers and government agencies through testimony at hearings, submission of comments during open comment periods, and dare I bring it up, "lawsuits" to further their agenda. Meanwhile, the evidence indicates the dirt bike community generally does not. Therefore, if you have accessible riding areas on public lands that matter to you, no matter how small, then do your part to ensure they stay open. There is strength in numbers, so join an advocacy/lobbying group that will represent and defend your ability to ride. A great option is the Blue Ribbon Coalition (approx. $25 a year). These people fight hard at both the State and Federal level to protect your right to ride. They use the exact same tactics that environmental groups use against them and to considerable success. They are entirely member fee and donation funded, so your dollars do make a difference. Similarly, though far less effective from the perspective of protecting your right to ride dirt bikes specifically, is to join the AMA ($49 a year), which can and does lobby on your behalf on land use issues that impact our ability to ride. Email your representatives using the form letters they send you via email and let your lawmakers know that riding is important to their constituents. And if you want to argue against this suggestion, then I would ask that you please don't bother because the NRA has proven that this approach works. The NRA is nothing but one enormous single issue advocacy/lobbying group ala BRC or AMA, but on a massive scale because they of the money they have at their disposal. The NRA would lose every bit of power it has if everyone stopped becoming member and donating to them tomorrow. Likewise, REI is another great example, albeit a less obvious example as they are known as a retail outlet to most. Nevertheless, the company actually uses its profit to fund environmental groups and their lobbyists, which vehemently opposes our right to ride at all, whether on public or private land.
12/12/2016 10:16pm
mx836 wrote:
I'm 31 now and can't name very many people I grew up racing that are still around. Turnouts are 50% what they were 15 years ago...
I'm 31 now and can't name very many people I grew up racing that are still around. Turnouts are 50% what they were 15 years ago. I can finally race Vet A and my stiffest competition this year was a 50+ rider. A fast one, but that says a lot about a working middle class 30 year old guys ability to afford racing MX these days. No doubt whatsoever that there has been a major decline. There's a lot of activities to choose from these days and almost every one of them is cheaper and safer than racing MX. Just the way it is in this world we live in now.
I could not agree more. I wonder why the sport can't attract mountainbikers spending $7-8 k (without a motor)? We need new blood with money
JMX82
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12/12/2016 10:26pm
JMX82 wrote:
This story just happened to be today's newspaper. I ran it trough google translate so might be bit poor English but I think you can get...
This story just happened to be today's newspaper. I ran it trough google translate so might be bit poor English but I think you can get the picture...




That's just crazy. Time to immigrate to a more Moto friendly country.
I think moto scene is going to see quick death here in Finland which is really sad. Fortunately insurance companies can't raise old insurance prices and as long as I carry on riding my current bike I have still cheap insurance. I feel bad for all the bike shops because this is going to kill new bike sales totally. On the top of that Finnish government is planning to add a tax for all street legal motorcycles which will be the final blow to our sport here.

I think it is partially our own fault that things have come to this. Today's tracks are lot more dangerous with supercross style jumps and current 450's are a lot faster than any bike back in the 90's. With modern four stroke even less skilled rider can get fast speeds at the tracks. Bikes are also heavier than old two strokes which is contributing bad injuries.

I'm already wishing a lottery win so I would have enough money to leave this country and move to more motorcycle friendly country.






1
hassbeen
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12/12/2016 11:24pm
Growth for the Motorcycle, Bike and Parts Manufacturing industry has[i] slowed over the past five years, largely because the aging of the population has reduced demand...
Growth for the Motorcycle, Bike and Parts Manufacturing industry has slowed over the past five years, largely because the aging of the population has reduced demand for motorcycles, baby boomers being the industry's largest revenue source. Additionally, import competition has intensified, leading many industry companies to relocate production abroad.

Through 2021, industry operators are expected to counteract these trends by increasing the efficiency of their production facilities and marketing their products to younger, previously untapped demographics in light of declining sales to baby boomers, who have long comprised the industry's primary customer group.

So how do you Market to the younger, previously untapped demographics ?

My guess is new EFI 2 Strokes. Kids today are more familiar with 2 strokes than 4 strokes. As far as untapped, Less expensive 2 strokes would sure help.

If MX Sports would follow the Euro lead and Hold a 125 2 stroke class at the Nationals and allow 2 Strokes to compete with 4 strokes.....
I think cheaper racing will help, grow the 2T classes. If only more manufacturers ventured back into 2T development.
1
12/13/2016 1:31am
NASCAR is on the decline amongst younger viewers as is moto. Meanwhile as US demographics shift soccer is on the rise.
1
jpfiester82
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12/13/2016 4:25am
You guys are crazy. I started track riding in 2014 for about 3k. I didn't have the best stuff but if you get creative, ride a...
You guys are crazy.

I started track riding in 2014 for about 3k. I didn't have the best stuff but if you get creative, ride a slightly older bike(thats still probably above your skill level), learn to fix stuff on your own, etc you can have just as much fun and do well for way less than the numbers in this thread. People can't just ride to have fun anymore, everything is way to serious and competitive. Most of us are never getting our pro card and even less will be riding pro in SX or MX. This is why Hare scrambles are getting extremely popular and track riding it suffering IMO.

$600 blown up bike
$1000 "resto" job
$600 in gear
$500 harbor freight trailer
$200 hitch for chevy cruze

Approximately $3000 ish and I had a blast. Wish I would have found track riding before 27 years old.








Look me up in the spring. I quite riding in 2012 until last fall. Everyone that used to come out and ride, 5 or 6 of us had already sold their bikes and it just stopped being fun. I had a new born daughter and priorities shifted for a couple years but the desire to ride never really goes away for most. Last fall a couple guys that knew about my track wanted to go riding and asked if they could clean it up and ride. In the past this has amounted to guys showing up and beating down a path with their bikes. This time they showed up with the bobcat and actually put in a full weekend of work. When I stopped in to see what was going on the passion was instantly back. I rode a couple of their bikes, an 11 yz450f, and a husky 250, and within a couple weeks I had a PW for my daughter now 4 and 10 yz450F. Definitely looking forward to the snow leaving and riding for fun next summer.
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StretchASU
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12/13/2016 5:40am
Make the switch to offroad/woods racing. That is not on the decline. Steady numbers and gates and on the big level, GNCC saw the largest turnouts ever this past season.

The only gripe I have in my area is that there are too many series doing the same thing. Within 4 hours of home I have 4 GNCC, most of the Full Gas Enduros, VXCS, VCHSS, MidEast and NCHSA. Some of the VCHSS are run in conjunction with the AMA East Hare Scrambles too. One of them needs to switch to a different format (JDay GP) and they will combine MX'ers on their off weekends from the local districts and the off roaders who want to give that format a chance all while not saturating the calendar even more.

1
Braap19
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Swansboro, NC US
12/13/2016 7:38am
Seems like all you vet riders are so out of touch with the younger generation.

Do none of y'all understand that it is just not feasible for my generations parent to afford to take a kid to the track?

My generations parents who are now in their 30's-40's are still making the same amount of money as they were 15 years ago. Except now they have two kids looking to go to college. They have a mortgage. They have to pay for insurance for the entire family now thanks to Obama. They probably have two car loans because it is cheaper in the long run to buy a new car than buy a used one.

The college thing is the biggest problem I've seen on the east coast with people ages 8-24. If you don't go to college now and get at least a bachelor's, you will either be working Blue collar, which is fine dont get me wrong, or be working as a retail associate on food stamps. Kids in my generation understand that they have to go to college in order to get the better jobs like banking investors and CPAs. And college isn't cheap. Long gone is the day where you can pay for a few classes at a time and get it done when you can. You just can't do that anymore.
Not when tuition is 4500 a semester if you take 2 classes or if you take 6 classes. Let alone the cost of living if you don't live with your parents while in school.




For example:


My dad spent over $21,000 in one year on bikes , gear, parts, gas, entry fees and practice fees. And I raced zero nationals or AMA races that year.

The next year of racing, he spent almost $17,000 on race fees, gas, parts, fees. No new bikes or anything like that. And I raced two nationals (am) and one other AMA race.

Another year I raced regional, area qualifier and lorretas and it was over $14,000. Not to mention the time my dad had to take off work for these races and money he lost not going to work for two weeks while we were at Loretta's and travelling there and back. Or the week and a half it took us to go to ponca at minios. And then the four or five day weekends needed to get to the qualifiers.


Stick with me.


Now. Imagine yourself at 16, your school friends are all getting ready for college. Saving up money, doing applications for schools (75-175$ each application by the way) and you don't have a clue what you want to be as an adult because you still want the luxury of racing.

Mechanic is an option. Construction is an option. But when you ask about these careers everyone tells you there is no future in them unless you hit it big and own your own business. You can't retire from being a framer. There's no 401k in blue collar jobs, no insurance, no job security. Which is entirely true. You decide blue collar just won't do for your future even though it works for some people.

So now you're looking at other careers, military, sales, attorney, medical field. Careers that you can afford to race while working in. You see the wages offered are doable and good benefits, job security. Everything you need to be able to afford racing and a life outside of racing. But then you realize that employers won't even look at your resume without at minimum a bachelor's from a great university and often times want you to have a master's with a B+ GPA.

So now you're looking into schools, some schools want $50,000 a semester (Looking at you Duke) just in tuition. Let alone cost of living and books. Oh and you need a car or truck to get there and that beat up Honda you had just won't cut it driving a few hours without breaking down. So now you. Red a new car.

So now you come out of college 4-5 years later at the age of 22-23. You are now in debt over $150,000 in student loans and a car loan because you raced dirt bikes and had no college fund from your parents.

You get your first job in the career field of your fancy new degree and have to move far away from home. You have to buy a house now. Boom, all the money you saved for a new dirt bike, is now the down payment for your new house $200,000.

So now at 24-25, you are in debt to the tune of over $350,000. And that's if you haven't had kids or gotten married yet.

So now at 25 I have a decent career making $36,000 a year. But I'm paying out over $2500 a month just to repay loans that I had to have to get ahead in life.


So y'all tell me, where is the money to race or even ride coming from, when you start having to accrue massive amounts of debt at 18?
1
aharper33
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12/13/2016 8:26am
After reading everything that has been written I tend to agree with most of the points made. A few points that I have noticed over the last 30 or so years of being involved in the sport.

1. Money used to go farther in this sport. The price of bikes, gear, entry fees, tires, ect
2. Availability of riding spots. It used to be you could ride on any dirt road or open field. Tracks where everywhere, both private tracks and public tracks.
3. I noticed when we were starting to get out of the sport it seemed as though every track you went to had some gimmick membership or license or club you had to join. Like StretchASU said with six or seven series going on at the same time in a small area each series is competing against each other for basically the same group of riders.
4. Bikes were more accessible to the average person. Say the average high school kid with a summer job could afford a new bike by the end of summer.

One example of the cost of racing in the recent past. I think it was 2002 and I was starting to get good enough that I could make it to the amateur nationals and be competitive. My dad made a deal with me that he would help me as much as he could if I did my part and helped as much as I could. So that year we ended up racing 49 weekends. We did the races in Texas,( Mosier Valley, Lake Whitney) World Minis, Ponca City and 4 or 5 other races in California plus all of the races we could in Arizona plus we practiced probably 3-5 days a week. Some times we went to tracks other times we just rode in the desert. We ended up getting toy hauler before we went to Texas because it was cheaper to pay for a trailer once a month that it was to stay in a hotel every weekend. I had one bike that we kept stock because we were trying to do everything as cheap as possible to make all of the races. There were times that we flipped the back tire to get an extra weekend out of it. We kept all of the receipts for that year and it was roughly $40000. That included gas to and from the races, bike, tires, parts, gear, entry fees, memberships to NMA, AMA, and other series, payments on trailer, ect. Im not trying to brag or make it seem like I some spoiled rich kid but when you see how much it really costs for a year of racing and riding it is kind of surprising. Now you add in that a bike now is twice as expensive and entry fees and practices are twice as much there is no way that we could do something like that again. I can see why there is a decline in motocross. Alot of the people I see that are still in the sport are either just getting by riding and racing a few times a year versus every weekend or a few times a month, or they a make a good enough living and have enough extra cash to ride and race on a regular basis. Just my 2 cents.
1
jeffro503
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12/13/2016 8:58am
I can't say for sure if the sport is on the decline or not....but I do know that one part of it has gone up drastically. That being " Women " in the sport. I have noticed over the past 2 - 3 years that more and more women are at the track. Which is pretty damn awesome. I use to only see 3 - 5 women on normal practice days , and now days it's not uncommon to see a good 10 , 15 or more.

As far as declining....I'm not sure. I do practice days at a lot of the tracks around here and those days seem to be pretty full at times. Not like back in the mid 90's , but still a good turn out compared to what it was 5 - 8 years ago.
Canadad
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CA
12/13/2016 9:21am
I have not read the whole tread but for me its not about 2 stroke, four stroke, affordability EFI yadda yadda. The middle class has lots of $ for recreation, that is not the problem....

The problem is that racing is just not cool any more.

Racing is for small minded people like us, its for rednecks and the uneducated who love the smell of race fuel and loud pipes. Things that were never popular are now cool. Comic book conventions are now cool....video game conventions are lined up down the street, thanks to the Big Bang Theory, its cool to be a nerd. Neanderthal types with their knuckles dragging on the ground are into racing and besides, its so dangerous. The younger generation wants to grow scruffy beards, hang out in internet cafes drinking double hot, extra frothy, coconut milk double shot lattes wearing man purses made from recycled materials. They are not going to hang out at Unidilla for a mudder.

NFL, NASCAR have the same issue....its for neanderthals who care little about the environment, their bodies, their future etc. They don't even put expensive beard oils on their beards for crying out loud.

Its just not cool any more.
StretchASU
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12/13/2016 10:31am
Somewhere there is a guy with a big toyhauler, new diesel truck to tow it with and a brand new bike(s) complaining of the cost to go racing....somewhere else, there is a guy with a regular pickup, a well tested and maintained bike and a EZUp tent sitting on his tailgate talking about how much fun he and his buddies just had going racing.



CC268
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Surprise, AZ US
12/13/2016 10:47am
Canadad wrote:
I have not read the whole tread but for me its not about 2 stroke, four stroke, affordability EFI yadda yadda. The middle class has lots...
I have not read the whole tread but for me its not about 2 stroke, four stroke, affordability EFI yadda yadda. The middle class has lots of $ for recreation, that is not the problem....

The problem is that racing is just not cool any more.

Racing is for small minded people like us, its for rednecks and the uneducated who love the smell of race fuel and loud pipes. Things that were never popular are now cool. Comic book conventions are now cool....video game conventions are lined up down the street, thanks to the Big Bang Theory, its cool to be a nerd. Neanderthal types with their knuckles dragging on the ground are into racing and besides, its so dangerous. The younger generation wants to grow scruffy beards, hang out in internet cafes drinking double hot, extra frothy, coconut milk double shot lattes wearing man purses made from recycled materials. They are not going to hang out at Unidilla for a mudder.

NFL, NASCAR have the same issue....its for neanderthals who care little about the environment, their bodies, their future etc. They don't even put expensive beard oils on their beards for crying out loud.

Its just not cool any more.
Lol this was a funny read...
MBR
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12/13/2016 10:54am
Growth for the Motorcycle, Bike and Parts Manufacturing industry has[i] slowed over the past five years, largely because the aging of the population has reduced demand...
Growth for the Motorcycle, Bike and Parts Manufacturing industry has slowed over the past five years, largely because the aging of the population has reduced demand for motorcycles, baby boomers being the industry's largest revenue source. Additionally, import competition has intensified, leading many industry companies to relocate production abroad.

Through 2021, industry operators are expected to counteract these trends by increasing the efficiency of their production facilities and marketing their products to younger, previously untapped demographics in light of declining sales to baby boomers, who have long comprised the industry's primary customer group.

So how do you Market to the younger, previously untapped demographics ?

My guess is new EFI 2 Strokes. Kids today are more familiar with 2 strokes than 4 strokes. As far as untapped, Less expensive 2 strokes would sure help.

If MX Sports would follow the Euro lead and Hold a 125 2 stroke class at the Nationals and allow 2 Strokes to compete with 4 strokes.....
"Kids today are more familiar with 2 strokes than 4 strokes"? Not sure what kind of kids you mean, but one thing is for sure, the kids of today are not familiar with any kind of motorcycles. The closest one is maybe these "hover boards" that they use to move around to be able not to walk anywhere (and they are plug&play). They maybe can understand the concept of putting gas in the tank of motorized vehicle (through seeing their parents fill up the car), but mixing gas & oil no way. For them the stuff available in web through iPhone, PS4 and other modern media devices are more interesting than any motorcycle or sports equipment. Through my work I have been testing some really amazing virtual reality stuff and within a few years that stuff will be available for everyone and then it's game over mx and similar sports that are expensive, high risk and take too much effort. So let's enjoy it while it lasts Wink
TXDirt
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12/13/2016 10:59am
Cost obviously has something to do with it. How much that contributes to the overall decline I have no idea.

I think another big factor is that folks are becoming more educated about the dangers that riding/racing involves. This is the same thing that is happening with football. Sure, the NFL is still popular, but the little leagues are taking a huge hit in numbers because mom and dads don't want their kids to play football because of CTE concerns.

As motorcycle racing has become more popular, and has garnered more coverage in the media, social media, etc, it has brought to light in a more public fashion the dangers of racing.

I raced for about 15 years. Had numerous injuries, several I have no clue how I was able to walk away from. Racing was my life for a long time and it was very hard to walk away. It gave me many memories and experiences I'm forever grateful for. If I had been paralyzed, I definitely feel I would have a different take on answering the question, "was it worth it". I also feel I will suffer from or am already suffering from mild forms of CTE already and I'm still not even 40 yet.

I have four kids. The oldest is 7 now. Will I let them get into riding or racing? Highly unlikely. I fear too much that something terrible might happen to them. And for me I don't think that's worth it. I'm not 100% sure though. I have often times thought about just saying fuck it and going down and buying my kid and myself a bike and going out riding. In some ways I feel like I am robbing him of the same experiences I enjoyed as a kid. But then part of me also feels like I want to protect him from some terrible injury that may or may not happen.

When I was a kid growing up, I felt absolutely invincible. As I have gotten older and have my own kids, you almost feel helpless in some ways because now that I'm older you realize how precious life is, and how it can all be changed in a single instant. Whether that's driving to school, the grocery store, or even a harmless day at the track, etc.
NV825
Posts
1971
Joined
8/26/2006
Location
Carson City, NV US
Fantasy
2711th
12/13/2016 11:04am Edited Date/Time 12/13/2016 11:05am
Time, Money, Technology

Time to learn the sport, time to maintain all the equipment, time devoted to work on getting better, time devoted to traveling as most tracks are getting fewer and farther between, time spent getting better from injury.

Money to get introduced to the sport, money to maintain all the equipment, money devoted to work on getting better, money devoted to traveling as most tracks are getting fewer and farther between, money spent getting better from injury.

Technology is a double edge sword. It's making it a whole lot easier for someone to devote finite time and money on one system that provides a wide array of electronic joy (Virtual Reality/Augmented Reality is already a really big culprit and it's fairly news still). The bright side is it just may spur enough interest in a sport like ours to possibly get them to want to do it in real life. Unfortunately, it's leaning much more towards the negative side, and a lot of similar fringe sports like golf, tennis, skiing/snowboarding, and more are also feeling this decline.
sam hain
Posts
849
Joined
11/8/2011
Location
TN US
12/13/2016 11:24am
Canadad wrote:
I have not read the whole tread but for me its not about 2 stroke, four stroke, affordability EFI yadda yadda. The middle class has lots...
I have not read the whole tread but for me its not about 2 stroke, four stroke, affordability EFI yadda yadda. The middle class has lots of $ for recreation, that is not the problem....

The problem is that racing is just not cool any more.

Racing is for small minded people like us, its for rednecks and the uneducated who love the smell of race fuel and loud pipes. Things that were never popular are now cool. Comic book conventions are now cool....video game conventions are lined up down the street, thanks to the Big Bang Theory, its cool to be a nerd. Neanderthal types with their knuckles dragging on the ground are into racing and besides, its so dangerous. The younger generation wants to grow scruffy beards, hang out in internet cafes drinking double hot, extra frothy, coconut milk double shot lattes wearing man purses made from recycled materials. They are not going to hang out at Unidilla for a mudder.

NFL, NASCAR have the same issue....its for neanderthals who care little about the environment, their bodies, their future etc. They don't even put expensive beard oils on their beards for crying out loud.

Its just not cool any more.
This is spot on, guys aren't "guys" anymore.
endurox
Posts
1873
Joined
3/22/2014
Location
Garden City, ID US
12/13/2016 11:45am
StretchASU wrote:
Somewhere there is a guy with a big toyhauler, new diesel truck to tow it with and a brand new bike(s) complaining of the cost to...
Somewhere there is a guy with a big toyhauler, new diesel truck to tow it with and a brand new bike(s) complaining of the cost to go racing....somewhere else, there is a guy with a regular pickup, a well tested and maintained bike and a EZUp tent sitting on his tailgate talking about how much fun he and his buddies just had going racing.



Bingo, you got a point. When I raced back in the 70's and 80's one had a truck or van period. Most people truck pulled to races. When the racing was over, we went home and worked around the yard or on the bikes if we were racing the next day..
colorado2day
Posts
561
Joined
11/4/2016
Location
Colorado Springs, CO US
12/13/2016 3:07pm
StretchASU wrote:
Somewhere there is a guy with a big toyhauler, new diesel truck to tow it with and a brand new bike(s) complaining of the cost to...
Somewhere there is a guy with a big toyhauler, new diesel truck to tow it with and a brand new bike(s) complaining of the cost to go racing....somewhere else, there is a guy with a regular pickup, a well tested and maintained bike and a EZUp tent sitting on his tailgate talking about how much fun he and his buddies just had going racing.



Tongue
seth505
Posts
9337
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
SD, CA US
Fantasy
1048th
12/13/2016 3:35pm
I dunno, I'm parting out a mint 2013 250sx because no one would buy it for half the price of a new one, over the course of months...in SOUTHERN CA. If the sport is doing really well then everyone is buying new 8k bikes (which I don't think is accurate).
1
PJRAUS
Posts
1532
Joined
5/28/2016
Location
AU
12/13/2016 6:03pm
chump6784 wrote:
It's not the cost of bikes and gear. Yes motocross is more expensive than stick and ball sports but it always has been and ous still...
It's not the cost of bikes and gear. Yes motocross is more expensive than stick and ball sports but it always has been and ous still the cheapest form of motorsport. When I started racing at 12 years old my parents bought my brother and I second hand bikes and gear. We went to the races in the family wagon towing a box trailer. All in all we were in a few grand. We got hooked and ended up spending the next 10 years and thousands of dollars traveling the country racing but to get started was a few grand.
How many people actually go out and buy brand new everything if they are just having a go? Very few I would imagine.
There are a couple of reasons I can see.
1) there are less places to ride. Numerous tracks have closed down that were within 1-1 1/2 hours drive from my place. 3 years ago I sold all my bikes and bought a boat to go wakeboarding as I have 4 boat ramps within 15 minutes of my house. We can wakeboard year round where I live but moto is in my blood so I'm back.
2) entertainment is a screen away. If my parents hadn't provided bikes I could have very easily become hooked on video games. I'm 32, even I was in my early teens the ps1 and Nintendo 64 were coming out. Gaming is a cheap way to get thrills and with the online gaming community today it is so easy to become immersed in it.
3) people seem to be softer today. They worry more about getting hurt and taking risks. Parents would rather see their kids sit in front of a screen all day than scrape their knee.
4) people are busy. Gone are the days of one parent working a 9-5 Monday to Friday. People now work 8-5 Monday to Friday and 8-12 on Saturday and its now both parents. After that they don't wanna do anything with their kid

These are just my observations. Obviously there are the few of us who see life as more of an adventure and get out and do things but I see these reasons as some major contributors to where our sport is right now
I agree with all your observations and have observed the same things myself.
I would like to add that there just is no value for money in motocross in Victoria where I used to race.
Back in the early to late 80's you could race nearly 40 open senior meetings a year...you got at least 2 x 20 min motos per class plus a decent practise session all on a Sunday .
When they combined seniors and juniors in the early 90's it all started to come apart.
It's now just a child minding service.
Any cure IMHO involves getting rid of MA , approaching government to adopt similar extreme sport legislation to what they have in NZ and the USA to where signed indemnity forms carry real legal weight.
Then we need enterprising individuals to step up as private promoters and run a value for money sport.
Sadly none of this has any chance of ever happening....id be racing this weekend if it was worthwhile , but it isn't
zookie
Posts
339
Joined
8/23/2008
Location
Guilford, CT US
12/13/2016 6:31pm Edited Date/Time 12/13/2016 6:33pm
Motodave15 wrote:
Is probably the worst statement.. milestone was absolutely packed... word was glen helen was packed as well. I think this moto industry is on the up...
Is probably the worst statement.. milestone was absolutely packed... word was glen helen was packed as well. I think this moto industry is on the up and up

One thing is, must be a rise of old bikes because i didnt see that many people rocking 15-17s. But alot of nice older bikes.
I haven't read anything but this first post. 6 pages long now.

Moto is DEFINITELY on the decline. Bike costs are insane (both initial cost and maintenance), people are way more concerned about health/safety these days, environmental regs are up, tracks are going away quickly (liability costs are huge, sound is a huge issue, etc).

The sport is killing itself with loud, expensive bikes that are too fast/dangerous.

Outside of moto hot areas (like SoCal), the sport is going downhill compared to what it was when I started 20 years ago. I used to ride from my parents driveway to a local dump/sand pit to ride. We NEVER got harassed by anyone there. We rode on the street to get part of the way there. This could not happen today in the town I grew up in.

gt80rider
Posts
6275
Joined
4/19/2008
Location
Boulder, CO US
12/13/2016 9:38pm
Braap19 wrote:
Seems like all you vet riders are so out of touch with the younger generation. Do none of y'all understand that it is just not feasible...
Seems like all you vet riders are so out of touch with the younger generation.

Do none of y'all understand that it is just not feasible for my generations parent to afford to take a kid to the track?

My generations parents who are now in their 30's-40's are still making the same amount of money as they were 15 years ago. Except now they have two kids looking to go to college. They have a mortgage. They have to pay for insurance for the entire family now thanks to Obama. They probably have two car loans because it is cheaper in the long run to buy a new car than buy a used one.

The college thing is the biggest problem I've seen on the east coast with people ages 8-24. If you don't go to college now and get at least a bachelor's, you will either be working Blue collar, which is fine dont get me wrong, or be working as a retail associate on food stamps. Kids in my generation understand that they have to go to college in order to get the better jobs like banking investors and CPAs. And college isn't cheap. Long gone is the day where you can pay for a few classes at a time and get it done when you can. You just can't do that anymore.
Not when tuition is 4500 a semester if you take 2 classes or if you take 6 classes. Let alone the cost of living if you don't live with your parents while in school.




For example:


My dad spent over $21,000 in one year on bikes , gear, parts, gas, entry fees and practice fees. And I raced zero nationals or AMA races that year.

The next year of racing, he spent almost $17,000 on race fees, gas, parts, fees. No new bikes or anything like that. And I raced two nationals (am) and one other AMA race.

Another year I raced regional, area qualifier and lorretas and it was over $14,000. Not to mention the time my dad had to take off work for these races and money he lost not going to work for two weeks while we were at Loretta's and travelling there and back. Or the week and a half it took us to go to ponca at minios. And then the four or five day weekends needed to get to the qualifiers.


Stick with me.


Now. Imagine yourself at 16, your school friends are all getting ready for college. Saving up money, doing applications for schools (75-175$ each application by the way) and you don't have a clue what you want to be as an adult because you still want the luxury of racing.

Mechanic is an option. Construction is an option. But when you ask about these careers everyone tells you there is no future in them unless you hit it big and own your own business. You can't retire from being a framer. There's no 401k in blue collar jobs, no insurance, no job security. Which is entirely true. You decide blue collar just won't do for your future even though it works for some people.

So now you're looking at other careers, military, sales, attorney, medical field. Careers that you can afford to race while working in. You see the wages offered are doable and good benefits, job security. Everything you need to be able to afford racing and a life outside of racing. But then you realize that employers won't even look at your resume without at minimum a bachelor's from a great university and often times want you to have a master's with a B+ GPA.

So now you're looking into schools, some schools want $50,000 a semester (Looking at you Duke) just in tuition. Let alone cost of living and books. Oh and you need a car or truck to get there and that beat up Honda you had just won't cut it driving a few hours without breaking down. So now you. Red a new car.

So now you come out of college 4-5 years later at the age of 22-23. You are now in debt over $150,000 in student loans and a car loan because you raced dirt bikes and had no college fund from your parents.

You get your first job in the career field of your fancy new degree and have to move far away from home. You have to buy a house now. Boom, all the money you saved for a new dirt bike, is now the down payment for your new house $200,000.

So now at 24-25, you are in debt to the tune of over $350,000. And that's if you haven't had kids or gotten married yet.

So now at 25 I have a decent career making $36,000 a year. But I'm paying out over $2500 a month just to repay loans that I had to have to get ahead in life.


So y'all tell me, where is the money to race or even ride coming from, when you start having to accrue massive amounts of debt at 18?
Great freak'n post... nice way of putting it so us 45+ guys know what you are going through... seriously, one of the best posts I've read on Vital in a long time...

and to the guy that said "The middle class has lots of $ for recreation, that is not the problem...." what do you think middle class is? 300k and above? True middle classers, those with income between 30 and 100k, would be hard pressed to have a liquid 8k sitting around to buy a new bike with, let alone gas, parts, entry fees, etc.
SteezGeez
Posts
200
Joined
12/11/2016
Location
Fullerton, CA US
Fantasy
426th
12/13/2016 10:56pm
Braap19 wrote:
Seems like all you vet riders are so out of touch with the younger generation. Do none of y'all understand that it is just not feasible...
Seems like all you vet riders are so out of touch with the younger generation.

Do none of y'all understand that it is just not feasible for my generations parent to afford to take a kid to the track?

My generations parents who are now in their 30's-40's are still making the same amount of money as they were 15 years ago. Except now they have two kids looking to go to college. They have a mortgage. They have to pay for insurance for the entire family now thanks to Obama. They probably have two car loans because it is cheaper in the long run to buy a new car than buy a used one.

The college thing is the biggest problem I've seen on the east coast with people ages 8-24. If you don't go to college now and get at least a bachelor's, you will either be working Blue collar, which is fine dont get me wrong, or be working as a retail associate on food stamps. Kids in my generation understand that they have to go to college in order to get the better jobs like banking investors and CPAs. And college isn't cheap. Long gone is the day where you can pay for a few classes at a time and get it done when you can. You just can't do that anymore.
Not when tuition is 4500 a semester if you take 2 classes or if you take 6 classes. Let alone the cost of living if you don't live with your parents while in school.




For example:


My dad spent over $21,000 in one year on bikes , gear, parts, gas, entry fees and practice fees. And I raced zero nationals or AMA races that year.

The next year of racing, he spent almost $17,000 on race fees, gas, parts, fees. No new bikes or anything like that. And I raced two nationals (am) and one other AMA race.

Another year I raced regional, area qualifier and lorretas and it was over $14,000. Not to mention the time my dad had to take off work for these races and money he lost not going to work for two weeks while we were at Loretta's and travelling there and back. Or the week and a half it took us to go to ponca at minios. And then the four or five day weekends needed to get to the qualifiers.


Stick with me.


Now. Imagine yourself at 16, your school friends are all getting ready for college. Saving up money, doing applications for schools (75-175$ each application by the way) and you don't have a clue what you want to be as an adult because you still want the luxury of racing.

Mechanic is an option. Construction is an option. But when you ask about these careers everyone tells you there is no future in them unless you hit it big and own your own business. You can't retire from being a framer. There's no 401k in blue collar jobs, no insurance, no job security. Which is entirely true. You decide blue collar just won't do for your future even though it works for some people.

So now you're looking at other careers, military, sales, attorney, medical field. Careers that you can afford to race while working in. You see the wages offered are doable and good benefits, job security. Everything you need to be able to afford racing and a life outside of racing. But then you realize that employers won't even look at your resume without at minimum a bachelor's from a great university and often times want you to have a master's with a B+ GPA.

So now you're looking into schools, some schools want $50,000 a semester (Looking at you Duke) just in tuition. Let alone cost of living and books. Oh and you need a car or truck to get there and that beat up Honda you had just won't cut it driving a few hours without breaking down. So now you. Red a new car.

So now you come out of college 4-5 years later at the age of 22-23. You are now in debt over $150,000 in student loans and a car loan because you raced dirt bikes and had no college fund from your parents.

You get your first job in the career field of your fancy new degree and have to move far away from home. You have to buy a house now. Boom, all the money you saved for a new dirt bike, is now the down payment for your new house $200,000.

So now at 24-25, you are in debt to the tune of over $350,000. And that's if you haven't had kids or gotten married yet.

So now at 25 I have a decent career making $36,000 a year. But I'm paying out over $2500 a month just to repay loans that I had to have to get ahead in life.


So y'all tell me, where is the money to race or even ride coming from, when you start having to accrue massive amounts of debt at 18?
Seriously great post as I am in this situation. I'm 24 now and only have a $24,000 in debt from earning my MBA which I still have one more semester to do but I just bought a home last year in southern california that's only 1100 sqft but cost $480,000! I'm really amazed with life if I could go ride twice a month while doing school and working.

If you're looking at racing I'm thinking your parents have to make $200,000+ a year and have no ambitions of their own other than to watch you ride a death toy. Cost of living combined with stagnant wages make it impossible for people to race. Rather than race I'd love it to be able to have my future kids ride on some trails. An average trip to the track already cost me close to $55 for the day if I don't break any parts.

Instead of trying to get the next generation we just need them to at least ride a bike. Racing I think for a kid is a stupid expense. If you can just keep up on your bills and ride with your kids the occasional weekend that's already a victory,
PJRAUS
Posts
1532
Joined
5/28/2016
Location
AU
12/13/2016 11:36pm
Braap19 wrote:
Seems like all you vet riders are so out of touch with the younger generation. Do none of y'all understand that it is just not feasible...
Seems like all you vet riders are so out of touch with the younger generation.

Do none of y'all understand that it is just not feasible for my generations parent to afford to take a kid to the track?

My generations parents who are now in their 30's-40's are still making the same amount of money as they were 15 years ago. Except now they have two kids looking to go to college. They have a mortgage. They have to pay for insurance for the entire family now thanks to Obama. They probably have two car loans because it is cheaper in the long run to buy a new car than buy a used one.

The college thing is the biggest problem I've seen on the east coast with people ages 8-24. If you don't go to college now and get at least a bachelor's, you will either be working Blue collar, which is fine dont get me wrong, or be working as a retail associate on food stamps. Kids in my generation understand that they have to go to college in order to get the better jobs like banking investors and CPAs. And college isn't cheap. Long gone is the day where you can pay for a few classes at a time and get it done when you can. You just can't do that anymore.
Not when tuition is 4500 a semester if you take 2 classes or if you take 6 classes. Let alone the cost of living if you don't live with your parents while in school.




For example:


My dad spent over $21,000 in one year on bikes , gear, parts, gas, entry fees and practice fees. And I raced zero nationals or AMA races that year.

The next year of racing, he spent almost $17,000 on race fees, gas, parts, fees. No new bikes or anything like that. And I raced two nationals (am) and one other AMA race.

Another year I raced regional, area qualifier and lorretas and it was over $14,000. Not to mention the time my dad had to take off work for these races and money he lost not going to work for two weeks while we were at Loretta's and travelling there and back. Or the week and a half it took us to go to ponca at minios. And then the four or five day weekends needed to get to the qualifiers.


Stick with me.


Now. Imagine yourself at 16, your school friends are all getting ready for college. Saving up money, doing applications for schools (75-175$ each application by the way) and you don't have a clue what you want to be as an adult because you still want the luxury of racing.

Mechanic is an option. Construction is an option. But when you ask about these careers everyone tells you there is no future in them unless you hit it big and own your own business. You can't retire from being a framer. There's no 401k in blue collar jobs, no insurance, no job security. Which is entirely true. You decide blue collar just won't do for your future even though it works for some people.

So now you're looking at other careers, military, sales, attorney, medical field. Careers that you can afford to race while working in. You see the wages offered are doable and good benefits, job security. Everything you need to be able to afford racing and a life outside of racing. But then you realize that employers won't even look at your resume without at minimum a bachelor's from a great university and often times want you to have a master's with a B+ GPA.

So now you're looking into schools, some schools want $50,000 a semester (Looking at you Duke) just in tuition. Let alone cost of living and books. Oh and you need a car or truck to get there and that beat up Honda you had just won't cut it driving a few hours without breaking down. So now you. Red a new car.

So now you come out of college 4-5 years later at the age of 22-23. You are now in debt over $150,000 in student loans and a car loan because you raced dirt bikes and had no college fund from your parents.

You get your first job in the career field of your fancy new degree and have to move far away from home. You have to buy a house now. Boom, all the money you saved for a new dirt bike, is now the down payment for your new house $200,000.

So now at 24-25, you are in debt to the tune of over $350,000. And that's if you haven't had kids or gotten married yet.

So now at 25 I have a decent career making $36,000 a year. But I'm paying out over $2500 a month just to repay loans that I had to have to get ahead in life.


So y'all tell me, where is the money to race or even ride coming from, when you start having to accrue massive amounts of debt at 18?
SteezGeez wrote:
Seriously great post as I am in this situation. I'm 24 now and only have a $24,000 in debt from earning my MBA which I still...
Seriously great post as I am in this situation. I'm 24 now and only have a $24,000 in debt from earning my MBA which I still have one more semester to do but I just bought a home last year in southern california that's only 1100 sqft but cost $480,000! I'm really amazed with life if I could go ride twice a month while doing school and working.

If you're looking at racing I'm thinking your parents have to make $200,000+ a year and have no ambitions of their own other than to watch you ride a death toy. Cost of living combined with stagnant wages make it impossible for people to race. Rather than race I'd love it to be able to have my future kids ride on some trails. An average trip to the track already cost me close to $55 for the day if I don't break any parts.

Instead of trying to get the next generation we just need them to at least ride a bike. Racing I think for a kid is a stupid expense. If you can just keep up on your bills and ride with your kids the occasional weekend that's already a victory,
Wow things are bad in the USA.... 5 years in college and you are making $36k WTF???
And so many young Americans thought that Hillary was the answer??? A lot more thought Bernie Sanders had the right ideas...may have done but the DNC sure fucked him over..
So glad I live in Australia ...I'm very blue collar.. I shear sheep for a living but can make 80 to 100 k in a year...min wage here is $21 per hour for casual employment... My industry is on piece rates... The more sheep I shear the more I get paid as I'm paid per sheep.
In any case , financial concerns aren't as big a factor in the decline of motocross here in Australia as they so obviously are in the USA ..
As others have stated...it's a lack of places to ride...so many other entertainment choices... and as far as serious hard core racing goes.... it's mostly the fault of our sports governing body MA ...or motorcycling asphyxiated...although they claim it stands for Motorcycling Australia.
It's hard for me to put into words just exactly how I feel about what those imbeciles have done to our sport...I won't bother...I'm out of it now
Dreaming now of having a track of my own ( like I once had ) and inviting my friends over to ride like I used to,

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