Mini-O's SX Championship Drama

11/26/2017 4:32am
Just remind the kid of what happened between Alessi and Villopoto through amateurs and pro's
piscokid
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11/26/2017 5:17am
dv12.com wrote:
People are REALLY getting soft nowadays... I wonder if RV is still bummed not winning as many amateur championships as other riders who never were even...
People are REALLY getting soft nowadays...

I wonder if RV is still bummed not winning as many amateur championships as other riders who never were even close to him in the pros while he's sitting on a $30M+ fortune today...

I've always raced up in amateurs racing with faster, older, bigger kids to learn, improve and get tougher. I could've maybe gotten World titles (and way more amateur titles than my 2) if I stayed down more. But the goal was to race and get ready for the biggest championship in the world. It's what I did and I was ready when I first lined up next to Jeremy McGrath as a full time 250 rider winning 4 SX races the first year. People need to realize that it's the ultimate goal in this sport, being a contender in the biggest class of the sport, not amateur titles in Florida nor Tennessee...

Carter and his family might be bummed today but they will not give a s%^& about the 2017 MiniOs if he becomes the next Roczen or the next Tomac in a decade...

seth505 wrote:
DV is absolutely correct. At this point in time, the kids most important years are ahead of him and he has a lot of work to...
DV is absolutely correct. At this point in time, the kids most important years are ahead of him and he has a lot of work to do in order to be anything (or even on the starting gate) in the pro ranks. Sure, it's a big deal "today" for them, but if mx is going to continue to be his life, it gets harder and there is plenty of time to shine when it counts the most.
If it doesn't matter, why does Team Green "sign" AC, Austin Forkner, or Jett Reynolds as amateurs? Reynolds has been racing for Team Green as an amateur since his 65 days. This year he was riding, 85, super mini and schoolboy at the mini o's. Why did Yamaha(?!) "sign" Matthew LeBlanc, (85 and superminis) who had been on a KTM since his 65 days as well as Ty Masterpool (who won super mini on a TM at LL this year) to ride for them? Why does the KTM Orange Brigade have Daxton Bennick (65 and 85) , Deegan (65 and 85) and several other young "amateur" hot shoes riding for them? What about Crockett Myers, racing for Suzuki in the 85 and super mini class?

If my point is not crystal clear: It matters, Championships matter. If they are good enough to win championships at that level, with that competition, that title matters. If anything, it might offer a very slim chance of gaining access to the programs that might take these young riders to the next level of their MX career.
yak651
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11/26/2017 5:42am
Yep, times have changed. Feld, MXSports, Youthstream don't want people showing up in a pick up truck and racing. If you haven't been picked up by a team by the time they are 13 they don't have much chance for a future
JustMX
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11/26/2017 6:24am
I will suggest that how the parties involved respond to this situation gets just about as much attention as a win.

It is obvious the kid has the speed and drive to win.

What sponsors are probably longing for in addition to a potential win is less drama, and talent that knows how to use social media in a positive way.

The Shop

Rhino
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11/26/2017 7:16am Edited Date/Time 11/26/2017 7:20am
A top amateur has about a 90% chance of never being the top pro. The list is long.
kzizok
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11/26/2017 8:04am
Regardless, there are many paths to success as a pro. Whether you are short sided enough to claim that amateur championships are the only way, or they aren’t the way and do it “the way I did it”, there are more ways than one to skin a cat. Perhaps you should get one.
Rhino
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11/26/2017 8:24am
NITRODOG wrote:
So if im looking at it right, 238 won by almost 1/2 second. .049. So Im guessing the scoring loop is somewhere a little before the...
So if im looking at it right, 238 won by almost 1/2 second. .049. So Im guessing the scoring loop is somewhere a little before the flagers position and the pass was made after. The days of racing to a white chalk line on the ground have been over for quite some time. All of the smart racers ask, and know exactly where the timing loop is
That's not even close to a 1/2 second. If that was F1, that is a large margin.

That is almost 4 1/2 THOUSANDS OF 1 second.

A half second would be .500.
Rhino
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11/26/2017 8:43am Edited Date/Time 11/26/2017 8:46am
The transponder wasn't synced with the finish line? So the kid who crossed the line first lost because the race ended where the transponder finish was setup?

Maybe on big races they need to go by photo finish when the transponders say 000.000

The transponder should always be at the Finish Line. Not at the bottom of the jump or corner before. What idiot came up with that bullshit idea anyway in SX? People race to the finish line. Finish means end.

KirkChandler
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11/26/2017 9:01am
Rhino wrote:
[I]The transponder wasn't synced with the finish line? So the kid who crossed the line first lost because the race ended where the transponder finish was...
The transponder wasn't synced with the finish line? So the kid who crossed the line first lost because the race ended where the transponder finish was setup?

Maybe on big races they need to go by photo finish when the transponders say 000.000

The transponder should always be at the Finish Line. Not at the bottom of the jump or corner before. What idiot came up with that bullshit idea anyway in SX? People race to the finish line. Finish means end.

The transponder loop is buried in the dirt less than 12" from the surface, the base of the jump is less likely to be exposed or develop a kicker than the peak of the jump (which is visually considered the finish line). If it was buried at the lip of the jump it could cause safety issues if it becomes exposed and or causes a kicker lip.

If the marked the actual timing loop as the finish line it would clear up some issues from time to time.
Rhino
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11/26/2017 9:10am
Rhino wrote:
[I]The transponder wasn't synced with the finish line? So the kid who crossed the line first lost because the race ended where the transponder finish was...
The transponder wasn't synced with the finish line? So the kid who crossed the line first lost because the race ended where the transponder finish was setup?

Maybe on big races they need to go by photo finish when the transponders say 000.000

The transponder should always be at the Finish Line. Not at the bottom of the jump or corner before. What idiot came up with that bullshit idea anyway in SX? People race to the finish line. Finish means end.

The transponder loop is buried in the dirt less than 12" from the surface, the base of the jump is less likely to be exposed or...
The transponder loop is buried in the dirt less than 12" from the surface, the base of the jump is less likely to be exposed or develop a kicker than the peak of the jump (which is visually considered the finish line). If it was buried at the lip of the jump it could cause safety issues if it becomes exposed and or causes a kicker lip.

If the marked the actual timing loop as the finish line it would clear up some issues from time to time.
I know. But its a piss poor way. The finish line is the finish line. Not XXX feet before.

NO Other sport has the finish line before the finish line. Not dog racing, not horse racing, not any other motorsport I've ever heard of.

The Boston Marathon doesnt have a finish line XXX feet before the Tape either.

Put the transponder in the finish line tower, or banner then. They have money, they should be able to figure it out.

Its not called an After Finish Finish Line.
JustMX
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11/26/2017 9:45am
Rhino wrote:
[I]The transponder wasn't synced with the finish line? So the kid who crossed the line first lost because the race ended where the transponder finish was...
The transponder wasn't synced with the finish line? So the kid who crossed the line first lost because the race ended where the transponder finish was setup?

Maybe on big races they need to go by photo finish when the transponders say 000.000

The transponder should always be at the Finish Line. Not at the bottom of the jump or corner before. What idiot came up with that bullshit idea anyway in SX? People race to the finish line. Finish means end.

The transponder loop is buried in the dirt less than 12" from the surface, the base of the jump is less likely to be exposed or...
The transponder loop is buried in the dirt less than 12" from the surface, the base of the jump is less likely to be exposed or develop a kicker than the peak of the jump (which is visually considered the finish line). If it was buried at the lip of the jump it could cause safety issues if it becomes exposed and or causes a kicker lip.

If the marked the actual timing loop as the finish line it would clear up some issues from time to time.
. That is only true if the line is put in right before the event.

It is easy to solve most of those issues by burying the line ahead of time.

kickers deep enough to get to the line are not likely unless it is recently disturbed dirt.
piscokid
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11/26/2017 9:57am
Both my kids run high school cross country. The timing and scoring people that show up have the wire under the finish line AND have a camera that records the finish line. The kids wear a chip (an RFID tag) that they lace on their shoe. If there is ever drama (I have never seen any) the tape can be reviewed.
KirkChandler
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11/26/2017 10:39am
JustMX wrote:
. That is only true if the line is put in right before the event. It is easy to solve most of those issues by burying...
. That is only true if the line is put in right before the event.

It is easy to solve most of those issues by burying the line ahead of time.

kickers deep enough to get to the line are not likely unless it is recently disturbed dirt.
Having owned and operated 2 tracks, the pvc pipes used for the loops often get destroyed while prepping the track, or the lip of the jump gets adjusted over the course of time and it becomes too deep to record properly. I don't know how many times we had to replace 'permanent' loops. So a lot of times new loops are put in just before the race.

Motocross tracks are dynamic, they are always moving and changing every lap the bikes ride them and every time the track is prepped. It's not Indianapolis Motor Speedway or a high school running track.

A finish line arch above the riders to record would be the best scenario, but My Laps doesn't use that system for motocross. Or just put down a chalk line where the transponder reads and that's the official finish line. Or just have a camera recording the finish for photo finishes.
Jack_Wagon
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11/26/2017 6:11pm
The finish line position was discussed at the rider's meeting. It was also announced over the intercom several times throughout the race days. The announcer is the one who proclaimed the initial winner- not the AMA or any race official. Escore doesn't update the live timing instantly. It can take several seconds. Maybe that's where the confusion originated.
seth505
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11/26/2017 7:19pm
dv12.com wrote:
People are REALLY getting soft nowadays... I wonder if RV is still bummed not winning as many amateur championships as other riders who never were even...
People are REALLY getting soft nowadays...

I wonder if RV is still bummed not winning as many amateur championships as other riders who never were even close to him in the pros while he's sitting on a $30M+ fortune today...

I've always raced up in amateurs racing with faster, older, bigger kids to learn, improve and get tougher. I could've maybe gotten World titles (and way more amateur titles than my 2) if I stayed down more. But the goal was to race and get ready for the biggest championship in the world. It's what I did and I was ready when I first lined up next to Jeremy McGrath as a full time 250 rider winning 4 SX races the first year. People need to realize that it's the ultimate goal in this sport, being a contender in the biggest class of the sport, not amateur titles in Florida nor Tennessee...

Carter and his family might be bummed today but they will not give a s%^& about the 2017 MiniOs if he becomes the next Roczen or the next Tomac in a decade...

seth505 wrote:
DV is absolutely correct. At this point in time, the kids most important years are ahead of him and he has a lot of work to...
DV is absolutely correct. At this point in time, the kids most important years are ahead of him and he has a lot of work to do in order to be anything (or even on the starting gate) in the pro ranks. Sure, it's a big deal "today" for them, but if mx is going to continue to be his life, it gets harder and there is plenty of time to shine when it counts the most.
piscokid wrote:
If it doesn't matter, why does Team Green "sign" AC, Austin Forkner, or Jett Reynolds as amateurs? Reynolds has been racing for Team Green as an...
If it doesn't matter, why does Team Green "sign" AC, Austin Forkner, or Jett Reynolds as amateurs? Reynolds has been racing for Team Green as an amateur since his 65 days. This year he was riding, 85, super mini and schoolboy at the mini o's. Why did Yamaha(?!) "sign" Matthew LeBlanc, (85 and superminis) who had been on a KTM since his 65 days as well as Ty Masterpool (who won super mini on a TM at LL this year) to ride for them? Why does the KTM Orange Brigade have Daxton Bennick (65 and 85) , Deegan (65 and 85) and several other young "amateur" hot shoes riding for them? What about Crockett Myers, racing for Suzuki in the 85 and super mini class?

If my point is not crystal clear: It matters, Championships matter. If they are good enough to win championships at that level, with that competition, that title matters. If anything, it might offer a very slim chance of gaining access to the programs that might take these young riders to the next level of their MX career.
I don’t think the kid will be overlooked or skipped over if he got 2nd (tied?) at the am national one year.

I would like to take a moment to commend you on writing a post that long and actually writing well. It’s rare here! Laughing
tkimb
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11/26/2017 8:15pm Edited Date/Time 11/26/2017 8:16pm
Slightly off topic, but qhy don't they just put it in the finish line tower? At more local tracks I can see but professional races or ones that hold large races why not? Surely the technology is there at a reasonable cost.. signal from one side of the tower to the other, right at the lip of the jump.
Every year there seems to be really close calls, and the fact that it's usually at the base of the jump is silly, confusing from a spectator view and frustrating as a rider.
Just the last season of SX I remember in qualifying a lot of the riders hugging the inside of the last turn at a race and rolling the jump, because the location of the "finish" was at the base and for just one lap time it was faster.
jstein639
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11/26/2017 8:16pm
dv12.com wrote:
People are REALLY getting soft nowadays... I wonder if RV is still bummed not winning as many amateur championships as other riders who never were even...
People are REALLY getting soft nowadays...

I wonder if RV is still bummed not winning as many amateur championships as other riders who never were even close to him in the pros while he's sitting on a $30M+ fortune today...

I've always raced up in amateurs racing with faster, older, bigger kids to learn, improve and get tougher. I could've maybe gotten World titles (and way more amateur titles than my 2) if I stayed down more. But the goal was to race and get ready for the biggest championship in the world. It's what I did and I was ready when I first lined up next to Jeremy McGrath as a full time 250 rider winning 4 SX races the first year. People need to realize that it's the ultimate goal in this sport, being a contender in the biggest class of the sport, not amateur titles in Florida nor Tennessee...

Carter and his family might be bummed today but they will not give a s%^& about the 2017 MiniOs if he becomes the next Roczen or the next Tomac in a decade...

jstein639 wrote:
I agree with your ideological point of view, but it is hard to deny that economics forces itself into the conversation. Winning a championship affords sponsorship...
I agree with your ideological point of view, but it is hard to deny that economics forces itself into the conversation. Winning a championship affords sponsorship opportunities that can help the family of the child afford to race and become the next Roczen or Tomac. Advertisements hold more weight with "national champion" above the riders' name.
bdub wrote:
Having a 4 page thread on Vital helps the publicity of an otherwise unknown amateur.. Just sayin...
I certainly don't agree that you can equivocate vital publicity with the publicity afforded by a national championship in respect to sponsors and economic gain, although it definitely does add publicity of some sort.
JustMX
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11/26/2017 8:48pm
Having owned and operated 2 tracks, the pvc pipes used for the loops often get destroyed while prepping the track, or the lip of the jump...
Having owned and operated 2 tracks, the pvc pipes used for the loops often get destroyed while prepping the track, or the lip of the jump gets adjusted over the course of time and it becomes too deep to record properly. I don't know how many times we had to replace 'permanent' loops. So a lot of times new loops are put in just before the race.

Motocross tracks are dynamic, they are always moving and changing every lap the bikes ride them and every time the track is prepped. It's not Indianapolis Motor Speedway or a high school running track.

A finish line arch above the riders to record would be the best scenario, but My Laps doesn't use that system for motocross. Or just put down a chalk line where the transponder reads and that's the official finish line. Or just have a camera recording the finish for photo finishes.
Pretty familiar with the "dynamics" of motocross tracks.

I have had to bury loops at the bottom of jumps before because of track conditions and it is pretty easy to mark with cones or other markings and notify participants with an announcement and notices on the posting board as to the specifics of finish line placement.
pbody
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11/26/2017 9:30pm
Put the transponder receiver above the finish line in the finish line structure.

The 2 main offroad promoters here in AZ use the finish line structures and seem to work just fine.
jleews6
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11/27/2017 3:18pm
I feel bad for the little guy that was told he was the winner and then it was taken away. We can all say what we want and think that its not a big deal because they are only little kids but that's just it. They are little kids that have worked hard and practiced to get that win. I'm sure its a big deal to them.
11/27/2017 4:32pm
We have had transponder loops at the top of jumps before (at the finish line banner) and have had a lot of issues with missed readings due to kids being airborne when they cross the loop. You take that off the table if you put it at the base of the jump.

The location of the finish line for scoring purposes was discussed in the riders meeting.

They run so many motos in SX and they happen really fast. Squeezing a podium interview in between every moto is tough. It was a miscommunication based on what the timing and scoring initially said. When it refreshed after all of the riders had crossed it updated the finish order. Unfortunate, but in the end it was the correct decision.

Lost in all of the drama, is where did this kid come from? It is my job to know who all of these kids are, and this one had slipped under my radar. He was actually leading the race in question and had a fall, then caught back up. He was my surprise of the week by far!
FolkLoar
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11/27/2017 5:51pm
SlowOldGuy wrote:
We have had transponder loops at the top of jumps before (at the finish line banner) and have had a lot of issues with missed readings...
We have had transponder loops at the top of jumps before (at the finish line banner) and have had a lot of issues with missed readings due to kids being airborne when they cross the loop. You take that off the table if you put it at the base of the jump.

The location of the finish line for scoring purposes was discussed in the riders meeting.

They run so many motos in SX and they happen really fast. Squeezing a podium interview in between every moto is tough. It was a miscommunication based on what the timing and scoring initially said. When it refreshed after all of the riders had crossed it updated the finish order. Unfortunate, but in the end it was the correct decision.

Lost in all of the drama, is where did this kid come from? It is my job to know who all of these kids are, and this one had slipped under my radar. He was actually leading the race in question and had a fall, then caught back up. He was my surprise of the week by far!
He’s been on the amateur national scene since 50s. Always been just right there behind the fastest kids in the class. I believe he had a top five moto at Lorettas last year.
calcoast
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11/28/2017 2:15am
If he’s really a winner he’ll win again...
305FC250
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11/28/2017 3:15am
So have there been any new developments or rants posted or was that one social media post the extent of it...
Jeff alessi
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12/17/2017 1:26pm
Like I said earlier, it showed a .46 advantage on lil deegs. That was his race regardless because it was said on charts he was the leader from the beginning. In amatuer racing the races need to be longer anyways, having the top kids of each division is disrespectful to those racers that practice (like me from 5 years old) 30+2 from a young age. They all do now a days. Kind of bull crap the main division classes still run short sprint motos that would eliminate these issues.

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