Meeting with lawyer

RACEGUY
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Edited Date/Time 10/28/2013 12:47pm
Hi gang, long time no chat.

Straight to the chase, I've been asked to meet with a lawyer this Friday afternoon regarding a turn-one pile-up that ended badly a couple of summers ago. Trying to explain turn-one to an outsider seems to cause their eyes to glaze over and they appear to severely miscalculate the risk of each and every start.

What I'd like to do, before the first question is asked, is to show him a collage of turn-one episodes from anywhere and everywhere. Does anybody have a link or two that might be a good, quick compilation of first turn "happenings"? The point I'd like to make is, everyone who knows anything about the sport knows the risks involved in that first bend.

I don't own any video editing software, so something reasonably complete would be much appreciated. If anybody can help me out, I'll meet you right back here.

Thanks Vitards ;-)
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Mr. Ted
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10/23/2013 4:57pm
That shouldn't be too difficult to find...Just curious, though, how would the inherent risk of racing in general not apply to the 1st turn (or subsequently be any less risky in say the 4th turn?)?
FreshTopEnd
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10/23/2013 5:04pm
What's the lawyer's objective? Is s/he defending someone being sued or representing someone who is suing?

What's your role? Are you a percipient witness ( someone who actually saw something happen) or being asked to give an expert opinion? What's your relationship to the lawyer? Are you cooperating with one of the parties, are you one of the parties? Is this lawyer on "your" side? Are you being compelled to give testimony?

All of these contextual questions drive what you might want to do or, more importantly, what you might be allowed to do.
BAMX
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10/23/2013 5:04pm
Are you involved in the case or are they getting info? If you are involved, I wouldn't say a word.
Forza
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10/23/2013 5:23pm
So you want help so you can sue your local MX track? Good luck.

The Shop

10/23/2013 5:26pm
Forza wrote:
So you want help so you can sue your local MX track? Good luck.
No, he wants to stop some other asshole from suing a track
Forza
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10/23/2013 5:45pm
Forza wrote:
So you want help so you can sue your local MX track? Good luck.
No, he wants to stop some other asshole from suing a track
I must have missed to last sentence of the second paragraph.
mynewcr250
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10/23/2013 5:48pm Edited Date/Time 10/23/2013 5:49pm
id like to know the background on what happened, but maybe youre not allowed to say. some parents pissed off their kid got swallowed up in the first turn and got hurt?

doesnt everybody sign a waiver when they race? i know i do, and i dont even race, just "practice"
cwtoyota
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10/23/2013 6:13pm
Waivers like those don't always hold up in court.

They more or less serve to show the court that the individual (and or parents, etc) were warned of the risks of participation, and the risks of simply setting foot on the property. Plenty of tracks have their facility rules and a warning statement at the front gate too.

The waivers probably discourage the lawsuits from being filed in the first place.
Sandberm
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10/23/2013 6:17pm
Dont cut to the chase. Explain whats going on and why you are meeting with a lawyer.
RACEGUY
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10/23/2013 7:02pm Edited Date/Time 10/23/2013 7:05pm
Thanks to everyone, no matter what your response was.

A very natural and quite normal turn-one pile-up occurred at one of our regional tracks. A young rider (with at least 5 years experience) ended up in a power-chair as a result. Now, a law firm is gathering information on behalf of the rider and his family.

Based on the elapsed time between the incident, and the fact that the rider is from the province I live in, and the law firm is in the province where the race took place, I would speculate (without prejudice) that this is somewhat of an "ambulance chaser" situation. Nonetheless, I was contacted as a witness. It's hard to deny that I was watching the start directly as I am the track announcer.

The points that need to be made are - a) A rider with numerous years of experience is aware of and fully understands the risks of the sport, and in particular, that first turn - b) If everything is operated within the guidelines of all policies and procedures, and the track is considered safe to run the moto, and there is no evidence that the collision was premeditated or malicious, then there is no one who could be considered "at fault". It's a racing "thing".

FTE - I know that covers part of what you asked. Here are a few more answers.
Even though I've been at it for 35 years and could well be considered "expert" by some, I work for the promoters. I don't think plaintiff's people want to go there.
I have no relationship with the lawyer. I was originally contacted by phone by a researcher (articling) in Nova Scotia. It went no further until I received an e-mail from a New Brunswick colleague of hers representing the same law firm.
I would like to think I am cooperating with both parties by simply offering my observations. The level of cooperation will very much depend on what I interpret to be their plan and method of attack. I can offer what I saw. Anything beyond that is optional.
This isn't testimony or even a deposition at this point. He is fact-finding.

Anyway... about some of that video footage guys... anybody?

This all came in really fast, so, if I missed anything, hit me again. I'm still here. Thanks all.
Lucifa.
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10/23/2013 7:09pm
It'll be that bloody Rich Cain again I bet you. Flipper can't get enough!
500guy
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10/23/2013 7:18pm
I don't know why you would talk to them unless summoned by a Judge. No good will come of your meeting.
MtnBoy
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10/23/2013 7:20pm
I'd direct them to a simple YouTube search...
RACEGUY
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10/23/2013 7:29pm
500guy wrote:
I don't know why you would talk to them unless summoned by a Judge. No good will come of your meeting.
They are still trying to build an actual case. The way they keep passing the file around, it appears they're not completely convinced that they want to go forward. Nobody has been served anything yet. I think if they knew what every rider and mx fan knows about what you "accept" when you go to the gate, they might be that much more reluctant to proceed.

There is nothing I can offer these people that would be detrimental to the promoter or anyone else they may name in a suit.
RACEGUY
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10/23/2013 7:35pm
MtnBoy wrote:
I'd direct them to a simple YouTube search...
They aren't looking for video, I am. I just figured a bunch of people would understand what I'm looking for and jump right in and say "bro, this is the best collection of turn-one footage ever!"

That way, I wouldn't have to fumble through a bunch of You Tube stuff and commercials and crap. I just thought a couple of you would throw your faves my way.
FreshTopEnd
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10/23/2013 7:39pm
The worst thing you can do is assume that a lawyer with stakes in the case on either side is not highly engaged, rather than eyes glazed over, and believe me if they are constructing a case for liability they are unlikely to be swayed by anything you say.

I can't opine on what the Canadian law is on qualifying experts, but I suspect all you'll end up going is giving them advance insight into how to attack your position and it could lead to you be disqualified from participating later on for the defense and, if you could contribute, a free shot at developing the attack on your personal qualifications and objectivity.

If you do get together a portfolio of first turn scenarios, 5 will get you a hundred they'll use that to establish some argument for why the current situation deviated from the ordinary situation such that the riders or track did not satisfy the standard of care for riders or track owners.

I deposed and strategized how to deal with some of the top research and clinical physicians on the plaintiffs side in the implant litigation. No good lawyer tries to go head to head on expertise against heavy weights; they try to undermine the relevance and credibility of the application of the expert's opinions to the facts of the specific case.

The worst mistake is to try to outsmart a lawyer in a situation; it's a great strategy to encourage an expert to get out on a limb that commits them to a concession from which an argument can be built into the story line they are committed to.

Do my sense is that you're less likely to help than to help, and even less likely to show them they have no case.

But if you're committed to it, you'll want to target physical track conditions similar to the track at issue , not just random tracks. Hope this helps.
slipdog
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10/23/2013 7:46pm
RACEGUY, I have no way to link you to the page from my iPad, but I searched "motocross first turn pile ups" on YouTube and it brought up pages of them.
wildbill
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10/23/2013 7:52pm
If I had broadband, I'd search moto 1st turn carnage or something similar.

Good luck and may the non-greedy prevail.
RACEGUY
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10/23/2013 8:00pm
Thanks, TopEnd. Really appreciate your input. Maybe my subject line and original post were poorly stated. Both my contacts to date are law clerks (articling). I have not been contacted by an actual lawyer from the firm.

I know exactly what you're saying. Maybe the video thing was just a dumb idea. I just thought if the person asking the questions can't even conceptualize motocross starts, they will have a hard time understanding my responses to their questions. I thought it might help reduce misperceptions and misunderstandings.

Maybe it's best to just let 'em figure it out for themselves.
RACEGUY
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10/23/2013 8:03pm
Thank you much slipdog. Really appreciate that. Not sure if I'm going ahead with it now. FTE made my spidy sense all tingly. Really do thank you, though.
FreshTopEnd
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10/23/2013 9:09pm Edited Date/Time 10/23/2013 9:10pm
RACEGUY wrote:
Thanks, TopEnd. Really appreciate your input. Maybe my subject line and original post were poorly stated. Both my contacts to date are law clerks (articling). I...
Thanks, TopEnd. Really appreciate your input. Maybe my subject line and original post were poorly stated. Both my contacts to date are law clerks (articling). I have not been contacted by an actual lawyer from the firm.

I know exactly what you're saying. Maybe the video thing was just a dumb idea. I just thought if the person asking the questions can't even conceptualize motocross starts, they will have a hard time understanding my responses to their questions. I thought it might help reduce misperceptions and misunderstandings.

Maybe it's best to just let 'em figure it out for themselves.
The clerks are doing the low level initial stuff. I'm not arguing with what you're trying do, but if they are worth their salt they are not going to be looking for a sense of the merits. Theyre looking to bolster a case. Just my opinion from watching the plaintiffs bar. A slew of first turn videos may just look like a stream of crowded salmon to a bear. mPlaintiffs lawyers tend to look for a niche they can work. Good luck!
lostboy819
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10/23/2013 11:12pm Edited Date/Time 10/23/2013 11:20pm
RACEGUY wrote:
Thanks to everyone, no matter what your response was. A very natural and quite normal turn-one pile-up occurred at one of our regional tracks. A young...
Thanks to everyone, no matter what your response was.

A very natural and quite normal turn-one pile-up occurred at one of our regional tracks. A young rider (with at least 5 years experience) ended up in a power-chair as a result. Now, a law firm is gathering information on behalf of the rider and his family.

Based on the elapsed time between the incident, and the fact that the rider is from the province I live in, and the law firm is in the province where the race took place, I would speculate (without prejudice) that this is somewhat of an "ambulance chaser" situation. Nonetheless, I was contacted as a witness. It's hard to deny that I was watching the start directly as I am the track announcer.

The points that need to be made are - a) A rider with numerous years of experience is aware of and fully understands the risks of the sport, and in particular, that first turn - b) If everything is operated within the guidelines of all policies and procedures, and the track is considered safe to run the moto, and there is no evidence that the collision was premeditated or malicious, then there is no one who could be considered "at fault". It's a racing "thing".

FTE - I know that covers part of what you asked. Here are a few more answers.
Even though I've been at it for 35 years and could well be considered "expert" by some, I work for the promoters. I don't think plaintiff's people want to go there.
I have no relationship with the lawyer. I was originally contacted by phone by a researcher (articling) in Nova Scotia. It went no further until I received an e-mail from a New Brunswick colleague of hers representing the same law firm.
I would like to think I am cooperating with both parties by simply offering my observations. The level of cooperation will very much depend on what I interpret to be their plan and method of attack. I can offer what I saw. Anything beyond that is optional.
This isn't testimony or even a deposition at this point. He is fact-finding.

Anyway... about some of that video footage guys... anybody?

This all came in really fast, so, if I missed anything, hit me again. I'm still here. Thanks all.
You are being played big time ! You may think what you have to say or videos you show, will help the cause but they are setting you up and it will make them look good. Anyone remember what they did to Super Hunky on national TV back in the 80s ? Tell them to piss off !! and don't show them anything or even talk to them because they don't want your "expertise" they want to manipulate everything you say and by the time you " interpret" them and you realize they are using you it will be too late. You are out of your league on this so don't say or do anything because then YOU will be part of the problem even if you meant well,and you will be considered someone who helped track suing scum and despised by the rest of the moto world.
lostboy819
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10/23/2013 11:21pm
500guy wrote:
I don't know why you would talk to them unless summoned by a Judge. No good will come of your meeting.
X1000
ns503
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10/24/2013 4:46am
Larry - been a little while. Hope all is well - outside of this unfortunate circumstance.

I sorta know Raceguy - and although I don't personally know the poor fellow in the power-chair, I think I know who it is. I've been in a witness stand before, and witnessed people in the witness stand, and it's not a pleasant experience being helplessly led down the garden path by a line of questioning only for it to inevitably lead to the edge of a cliff. It's what they do - it's their job. As my old boss used to say, they get you in the room, sit you down in front of a judge, and try to make you look like a monkey. And from experience since then, it doesn't have to wait until you're in front of a judge - it can start in the conference room of a law office.

You've been a huge supporter of the tracks & promotors in this region for longer than I can remember. And an equally huge supporter of the riders. I absolutely know your heart is in the right place - there could be no better solution to this than to mediate both parties outside the courts or a law office. Maybe my radar is off-kilter, but I am also feeling that there will not be much mediative (is that a word?) affect to be had from a meeting with the legal team of the (very unfortunately) injured party. I am really hoping some balance can be found in all this - but can only imagine it will be very difficult if things do proceed.

Good luck!

(That likely didn't offer a lot of help....)
IWreckALot
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10/24/2013 5:06am
cablecable wrote:
cant believe you guys can sue over shit like this!
I'm pretty sure we've (Americans) sued McDonalds for making people fat. . . Like they were held hostage until they doubled their body fat or something. . . Our society is becoming full of people who believe that it is never our fault but someone elses. Get sick from not eating right? Not your fault. Trying to get/keep in shape and have a misstep that results in an injury? Not your fault. It's frustrating to those of us who aren't afraid to accept accountability. . .
JustMX
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10/24/2013 5:11am Edited Date/Time 10/24/2013 5:12am
500guy wrote:
I don't know why you would talk to them unless summoned by a Judge. No good will come of your meeting.
RACEGUY wrote:
They are still trying to build an actual case. The way they keep passing the file around, it appears they're not completely convinced that they want...
They are still trying to build an actual case. The way they keep passing the file around, it appears they're not completely convinced that they want to go forward. Nobody has been served anything yet. I think if they knew what every rider and mx fan knows about what you "accept" when you go to the gate, they might be that much more reluctant to proceed.

There is nothing I can offer these people that would be detrimental to the promoter or anyone else they may name in a suit.
Just curious if you have ever been involved in a lawsuit before.

You would be surprised what they can twist to be detrimental........

People that think they are helping often do the opposite..

Read FTE's post carefully and if you don't know the answers to his questions, bow out...
Camp332
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10/24/2013 6:35am Edited Date/Time 10/24/2013 8:00am
Holeshot101 in the 30+

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