Make Motocross Great Again! Is it time to fire the AMA?

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5/29/2017 7:26 PM

With the continued decline of entries in the 250 class at the nationals how long will it be before the AMA acknowledges that they have a major problem with the current class rule structure?

Is it the new normal that we are going to see entry lists that will barely fill the gate for the first moto without qualifiers?

Is it the new normal that racing has become so expensive that local pros have lost all desire to even compete when the big show comes to town?

Is it the new normal we now have race teams that can’t make it through a weekend without nearly ALL of their riders losing at least one engine?

Is it the new normal that someone talks about how “bulletproof” their new four stroke is because they have 25 hours on it without a catastrophic failure?

Is it the new normal that the racers just accept the fact the sanctioning bodies do what’s best for OEM’s and their bank accounts first and worry about what the racers can afford last?

Is this what grass roots, entry level motorsports are supposed to look like?

I don’t think so. The powers that be need to figure this out soon because the four stroke “revolution” is running the sport of motocross into the ground.

I hear everyone throwing around all these ideas and potential rule changes in search of ways to keep a 250F engine from failing in a 30 minute national moto. Why over-think the problem when the simple answer is hiding in plain sight?

Straight up 250cc motorcycle racing just like Canada and Australia.

Why are we NOT racing bikes that are:

1. Less expensive to buy?
2. Less expensive to maintain?
3. Much easier to work on?
4. Far more popular with fans?
5. Far more popular on social media?

Follow the money and you will find the answer.

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5/29/2017 7:32 PM

I agree 100%. Sadly don't see anything happening.

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5/29/2017 7:32 PM

I posted this in another thread. Appropriate here too:
Photo

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much ty. How to spot a paid forum poster/artificial forum traffic producer (see list of actions/phrases below):

Copius pattern amounts of phrases like “Anyone have”..., “Anybody know?”.... and their variations.

Thoughts?
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks in advance!





5/29/2017 7:32 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/29/2017 8:04 PM

Tracks are to dangerous , no body in right mind wants to get hurt on that.

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Born in Prague,living in LA,so if you don't like my spelling,blow me!

18 YZ450F
16 Yamaha YXZ 1000R
17 Yamaha MT-10 FZ-10 165 Hp RWP
06 CRF450X street legal supermoto
06 RM250 smoker
1992 CR250R basket case
2006 CRF50








5/29/2017 7:34 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/29/2017 7:36 PM

It's interesting, but the 2stroke fad sort of died off a bit in the MX2 class here. Here are the top 17 bikes at the last round here, only 4 two strokes. Mind you, the yz250f is a favourite, it might be different if it weren't such a strong bike

Photo

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James = #7. Malcolm = #27
7/27=0.259259259259259259259
Stewart return confirmed!

5/29/2017 7:45 PM

Mitch Payton called it 16 years ago.

" I don't know that I like the 250 four-strokes in the 125 class. It is too much of an advantage. They are double the size of our KX125's. Double! The legal four-strokes in the 250 class aren't double. The legal four strokes in the 80 class aren't double. You need to find a happy medium, and 250 ain't it. They are going to keep getting better, too. Right now, the 125's can run with them with momentum and speed in the corners, but what happens when you get behind them is that they slow down in the corners because they don't corner as well. They squirt the first ten or twenty feet, and then you have to try and run them down. That's hard. They get great starts too because of their traction. They have a big advantage here. You get little kids getting off an 80cc bike and they'll have to go to a 250. It is too big for them, too heavy and they can't start the things. All the manufacturers are working on them, and unfortunately we'll all be racing them in a few years."


Quoted in MXA, Sept. 2001.

I especially like the "unfortunately" part.

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5/29/2017 7:47 PM

Lots of great points. I love the 4strokes but it's come to the point where they are ruining the sport. The price is outrageous anymore plus the cost to maintain them is even worse.

The sport in general is in a downward spiral and I'm not really sure what the answer is. Yea the electric thing is coming but I don't see where it's going to be cheaper.

Someone involved in the higher powers really needs to set down and have a discussion about this.

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5/29/2017 7:47 PM


Thing is, the factories , well, all but orange, want to make and sell 4 strokes.
And without the factories, no big salaries for the top riders.
No big rigs at the track.

I've seen it in Roadracing, the factories split, the people don't come to watch.

As far as the AMA! All the greats have won AMA championships.
History wise, it's the AMA championships that count. They put a guy in another league,
You are one of the greats if you are an AMA Champion. Kinda like Motogp. You are remembered.

Hard combo to beat.
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5/29/2017 8:00 PM

Derpin' DJ wrote:

It's interesting, but the 2stroke fad sort of died off a bit in the MX2 class here. Here are the top 17 bikes at the last round here, only 4 two strokes. Mind you, the yz250f is a favourite, it might be different if it weren't such a strong bike

Photo

No one over here is tuning the 250f's to the level they are in the states though. The fuel rules here limit how much can be done to the engines. We can only run fuel available at the petrol bowser. No leaded, oxygenated fuel. That restricts revs and in turn, how modded the engine can be

I think it's funny that this is starting to become such a problem now. 4 strokes are a lot more reliable than they were 10 years ago. The problem is the continued "advancement". The manufacturers get the bikes to the point where they are considered reliable and then the aftermarket goes and pushes past that point. Problem is, if one team does it every other team has to follow or get left behind.

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5/29/2017 8:07 PM

We have to be running out of dead horses around here soon.

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Tomac and/or Anderson for 2020.....

5/29/2017 8:08 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/29/2017 8:09 PM

newmann wrote:

Mitch Payton called it 16 years ago.

" I don't know that I like the 250 four-strokes in the 125 class. It is too much of an advantage. They are double the size of our KX125's. Double! The legal four-strokes in the 250 class aren't double. The legal four strokes in the 80 class aren't double. You need to find a happy medium, and 250 ain't it. They are going to keep getting better, too. Right now, the 125's can run with them with momentum and speed in the corners, but what happens when you get behind them is that they slow down in the corners because they don't corner as well. They squirt the first ten or twenty feet, and then you have to try and run them down. That's hard. They get great starts too because of their traction. They have a big advantage here. You get little kids getting off an 80cc bike and they'll have to go to a 250. It is too big for them, too heavy and they can't start the things. All the manufacturers are working on them, and unfortunately we'll all be racing them in a few years."


Quoted in MXA, Sept. 2001.

I especially like the "unfortunately" part.

Mitch is also one of the most outspoken people against having 250 2 stoke run in the 250 class with the 250 4 strokes, from his business standpoint I dont blame him because he invested in the cost to retool to switch to 4 strokes. A top rider on a 250 he said would be unfair to his team and the other teams, kind of like the Pro circuit team now makes it impossible to even have a chance if you are not on a top teams like Pro Circuit or Geico Honda and their 1 race motors. its the pot calling the kettle black .

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Ed Johnson

5/29/2017 8:14 PM

BobPA wrote:

We have to be running out of dead horses around here soon.

If the guy who runs, arguably, the biggest motocross series in the world comes in here and says he's working on it, it isn't a dead horse.

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5/29/2017 8:16 PM

The AMA has been a joke for many moons now. Next full moon the AMA will still be a joke, trust me on this. 2 Strokes would be great for the sport to have them racing again as long as the rules are fair. But the most important thing is having new riders. That is the real problem in our sport. I would think that most kids, young people, and adults these days would like to see "texting" be the next big thing in racing. You could race with any kind of strokes you like. You could text race from anywhere you like, except while driving. And best of all, most all kids, young people and adults already own at least one texting race device. Ask 10 random kids if they would rather have a motorcycle or the latest greatest Smart Phone texting device. You probably already know the correct answer. The "Verizon Texting Nationals" sponsored by Monster Energy could be the future.

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5/29/2017 8:17 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/29/2017 10:23 PM

blackdiamond wrote:

With the continued decline of entries in the 250 class at the nationals how long will it be before the AMA acknowledges that they have a major problem with the current class rule structure?

Is it the new normal that we are going to see entry lists that will barely fill the gate for the first moto without qualifiers?

Is it the new normal that racing has become so expensive that local pros have lost all desire to even compete when the big show comes to town?

Is it the new normal we now have race teams that can’t make it through a weekend without nearly ALL of their riders losing at least one engine?

Is it the new normal that someone talks about how “bulletproof” their new four stroke is because they have 25 hours on it without a catastrophic failure?

Is it the new normal that the racers just accept the fact the sanctioning bodies do what’s best for OEM’s and their bank accounts first and worry about what the racers can afford last?

Is this what grass roots, entry level motorsports are supposed to look like?

I don’t think so. The powers that be need to figure this out soon because the four stroke “revolution” is running the sport of motocross into the ground.

I hear everyone throwing around all these ideas and potential rule changes in search of ways to keep a 250F engine from failing in a 30 minute national moto. Why over-think the problem when the simple answer is hiding in plain sight?

Straight up 250cc motorcycle racing just like Canada and Australia.

Why are we NOT racing bikes that are:

1. Less expensive to buy?
2. Less expensive to maintain?
3. Much easier to work on?
4. Far more popular with fans?
5. Far more popular on social media?

Follow the money and you will find the answer.

Cant put all the blame on the AMA on this one, DC, Mitch Payton , Honda, Kawasaki call the shots more than the AMA but the best thing that can happen to maybe make a change is already happening with the 250 class not having a good turn out so they are bring it on themselves. When they cant fill the gate at a National then maybe something will happen. Its not just 2 strokes they can make a spec class so that you dont have to be on Pro Circuit or Star or Geico if you want to be competitive , but they need to pull their heads out of the sand before they lose anymore riders or fans.

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Ed Johnson

5/29/2017 8:33 PM

Who would you fire, does AMA actually exist in anything but name only? The suits that sell us down the river every chance they get don't have much if anything to do with racing. DMG is nothing more than a trademark holder as far as I know, isn't AMA pretty much Feld for SX and MXSports for motocross?

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5/29/2017 8:38 PM

Its a lost cause, man. MX and SX are programs that the manufacturers, promoters, and ama run. They call the shots and allow what they allow. The manufacturers pay the bills of the AMA and promoters, so they get to run what they want. Riders are just allowed to participate and fans just watch. If it goes bankrupt, then its their business, not ours. Yeah its unfortunate, but its their show.

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5/29/2017 9:01 PM

Derpin' DJ wrote:

It's interesting, but the 2stroke fad sort of died off a bit in the MX2 class here. Here are the top 17 bikes at the last round here, only 4 two strokes. Mind you, the yz250f is a favourite, it might be different if it weren't such a strong bike

Photo

Not entirely surprising when you have 6 250F machines eligible and only 3 250T machines.....

It'd be interesting to see what sort of support and/or contingency differences there are between the bikes.

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5/29/2017 9:06 PM

Well...to be fair...I rebuild my 2 stroke 250 about every 25 hours. Difference?....my top end kit cost $140.00.

What's a hotrod / competitive 250F rebuild cost?

I agree...the rules need to freaking change! Canada made it work...so can the Nationals here and MX2 across the pond.

It honestly boils down to "Greed". The OEM's don't want guys being able to put a new top end in a bike for under $200.00. They want you to spend $1500.00 minimum.

People have been getting cornholed on this for over a decade. Sooner or later...you just price out all your competition. I'd love to have a 250F....but Gawd damn...I can't afford the proper upkeep.

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

5/29/2017 9:16 PM

I started a post on this once before but I'll say it again:

Entry level dictates the pro market. If everyone quits buying four strokes tomorrow- two strokes will come back into pro racing.

Also, the homologation fee is heinous. If I want to race on a 06 RM 250- and it passes tech inspection... LET ME.

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5/29/2017 9:20 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/29/2017 9:23 PM

What would we see if equal displacement was allowed at the amateur/entry level?

Would they go back and change the rules like Canada and Australia did?

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much ty. How to spot a paid forum poster/artificial forum traffic producer (see list of actions/phrases below):

Copius pattern amounts of phrases like “Anyone have”..., “Anybody know?”.... and their variations.

Thoughts?
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks in advance!





5/29/2017 9:30 PM

Think about all the young people and parents who buy a 250F, not know much about maintenance, and destroy the engine because of lack of knowledge. Take it to their dealer to find out a rebuild is very expensive and decide to get out of riding dirt bikes for good. It happens all the time people. Lots of 250F's for sale needing "Engine Rebuild". Plus new riders are not finding places to ride close to home these days and most tracks have a lot of big jumps and scare away the newbies.

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5/29/2017 9:31 PM

chump6784 wrote:

No one over here is tuning the 250f's to the level they are in the states though. The fuel rules here limit how much can be done to the engines. We can only run fuel available at the petrol bowser. No leaded, oxygenated fuel. That restricts revs and in turn, how modded the engine can be

I think it's funny that this is starting to become such a problem now. 4 strokes are a lot more reliable than they were 10 years ago. The problem is the continued "advancement". The manufacturers get the bikes to the point where they are considered reliable and then the aftermarket goes and pushes past that point. Problem is, if one team does it every other team has to follow or get left behind.

If they choked the four strokes with mod restrictions like they do with the two strokes it would be a completely different story.

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5/29/2017 9:35 PM

Jeff_Crutcher wrote:

I started a post on this once before but I'll say it again:

Entry level dictates the pro market. If everyone quits buying four strokes tomorrow- two strokes will come back into pro racing.

Also, the homologation fee is heinous. If I want to race on a 06 RM 250- and it passes tech inspection... LET ME.

Why do they only allow newer bikes to race and turn away older bikes. That hurts rider attendance on the gate right there at pro races. It is all about the money, and always will be. The End.

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5/29/2017 9:36 PM

I checked. The AMA doesn't make bikes.

Ride what you want. Buy what you want. Sales make a difference.

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5/29/2017 9:38 PM

BobPA wrote:

We have to be running out of dead horses around here soon.

If you think it's a dead horse then why don't you enlighten everyone with some brilliant ideas on how to fix the problem?

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5/29/2017 9:45 PM

The "AMA" will tell you straight up that they have absolutely nothing to do with Pro Racing and will refer you straight to DC and MX Sports. They will tell you it is all in his control. Well, that and all the OEM's he always references. And that is where the problems lie, with the OEM's. The AMA screwed the pooch and wiped their wankers on the drapes on the way out of the room. Of course they were stealing from the members while killing the sport at the same time. AMA Life Member here by the way.

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5/29/2017 9:52 PM

GuyB wrote:

I checked. The AMA doesn't make bikes.

Ride what you want. Buy what you want. Sales make a difference.

Who said they did?

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5/29/2017 10:04 PM

lostboy819 wrote:

Cant put all the blame on the AMA on this one, DC, Mitch Payton , Honda, Kawasaki call the shots more than the AMA but the best thing that can happen to maybe make a change is already happening with the 250 class not having a good turn out so they are bring it on themselves. When they cant fill the gate at a National then maybe something will happen. Its not just 2 strokes they can make a spec class so that you dont have to be on Pro Circuit or Star or Geico if you want to be competitive , but they need to pull their heads out of the sand before they lose anymore riders or fans.

You helped me make my point, the sport needs a real sanctioning body with balls that calls the shots instead of bowing the the wishes of the aftermarket companies or corporate interests.

Right now the tail is wagging the dog.

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5/29/2017 10:15 PM

blackdiamond wrote:

If they choked the four strokes with mod restrictions like they do with the two strokes it would be a completely different story.

Can't wait till the 250 class is just that: 250cc's, regardless of engine type. Throw in the new Alta bikes and I'm sure you'll see more than 40 riders showing up...Also agree on the open homologation theory: If a bike is fit to ride, let em' ride! I don't care if Honda hasn't released a CR250 since 2007, I'd still like to see it out there in the 250 class...

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5/29/2017 10:17 PM

blackdiamond,

What if one of the "powers that be" acknowledged what you are saying, agreed with you, and started to implement change?

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much ty. How to spot a paid forum poster/artificial forum traffic producer (see list of actions/phrases below):

Copius pattern amounts of phrases like “Anyone have”..., “Anybody know?”.... and their variations.

Thoughts?
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks in advance!