I’m surprised no one started a thread on Keefers shootout last week. All the shootouts thus far have pretty much came to the same rankings. Except for MXA. Shocking.....?

280driver wrote:

I’m surprised no one started a thread on Keefers shootout last week. All the shootouts thus far have pretty much came to the same rankings. Except for MXA. Shocking.....?

I haven't seen Keefer's yet, but I remember Michael saying when he talked to Keefer that his results weren't far off of Vital's.

are the advertising dollars that big to be night and day different than Vital or Keefer? Any other shootouts out there?

BR8ES wrote:

are the advertising dollars that big to be night and day different than Vital or Keefer? Any other shootouts out there?

Transworld's shootout is up as well.

TWMX:
1) Kawasaki
2) Yamaha
3) Honda
4) Husky
5) KTM
6) Suzuki

I purposely DO NOT take advertising dollars from any manufacturer for the specific reason that the perception (of most people) is that manufacturers pay off media outlets. With that being said, MXA has their own reasons why they pick their winners and to some that works. There are a few of us (media testing outlets) to choose from, so what I tell people is "go with the media testing outlet you trust the most".

I am completely transparent with my shootout, interview riders and get their results as soon as they're done so you can hear the emotion behind each choice. In our second day of Shootout's Michael was on hand to ride the track and I interviewed Michael about "Shootout's". It's a good listen.

We will also be discussing all of this tonight on the Pulp MX Show and I am sure Michael and I will get together at some point again to shoot the shit about dirt bikes for the show real soon.

Is it true all the stories i have heard about MXA and the big advertising ktm money ? Or do they truly think on their honors the SXF are number one ?

BR8ES wrote:

are the advertising dollars that big to be night and day different than Vital or Keefer? Any other shootouts out there?

TWMX, Vital (ours), MXA, and DirtBikeTest are fully out...although I can barely decipher DBT's in the way it was written and formatted.

Dirt Bike Magazine has only announced their winner.

Keefer announces his final results tonight.

Vital: 1 - Yamaha, 2 - Kawasaki, 2 - Honda (we had a tie for second), 4 - Husqvarna, 5 - KTM, 6 - Suzuki

TWMX: 1 - Kawasaki, 2 - Yamaha, 3 - Honda, 4 - Husqvarna, 5 - KTM, 6 - Suzuki

MXA: 1 - KTM, 2 - Husqvarna, 3 - Yamaha, 4 - Kawasaki, 5 - Honda, 6 - Suzuki

Dirt Bike: 1 - Kawasaki (they only confirmed the winner, I believe the rest of the results are something like this: 2 KTM, 3 Husky, 4 Honda, 5 Yamaha, 6 Suzuki)

Keefer: Announcing tonight, if you've been listening to his podcasts you'll know it's between Yamaha and Kawasaki for the win.

DBT: 1 - Yamaha, 2 - Kawasaki, 3 - Honda, 4 - KTM, 5 - Husqvarna, 6 - Suzuki

CycleNews hasn't announced yet.

DirtRider hasn't announced yet.

Adding them all up, confirmed results
Yamaha - 7
Kawasaki - 9
Honda - 13
Husky - 15
KTM - 15
Suzuki - 24

LOL!! "a 5gal enduro fuel tank strapped on"... do they not know that fuel weighs 7lb per gal??!! good ol' mxa.

Kris Keefer wrote:

I purposely DO NOT take advertising dollars from any manufacturer for the specific reason that the perception (of most people) is that manufacturers pay off media outlets. With that being said, MXA has their own reasons why they pick their winners and to some that works. There are a few of us (media testing outlets) to choose from, so what I tell people is "go with the media testing outlet you trust the most".

I am completely transparent with my shootout, interview riders and get their results as soon as they're done so you can hear the emotion behind each choice. In our second day of Shootout's Michael was on hand to ride the track and I interviewed Michael about "Shootout's". It's a good listen.

We will also be discussing all of this tonight on the Pulp MX Show and I am sure Michael and I will get together at some point again to shoot the shit about dirt bikes for the show real soon.

I am actually listening to it right now. I enjoy listening to both of you with all of the knowledge, especially when you two get together.

It's just interesting to hear 3 different outlets say one thing and then have MXA almost completely reverse it. I like quite a few of the guys over there, but they are sorta like a broken record year after year. You can almost guarantee KTM and Husky will be first and second, Suzuki will be last and 3-5 are a toss up between the other 3.

A little off topic, but how has Sunrise been? I believe that's where I am headed Saturday.

I didn't think it was bad, seemed honest/fair. Definitely interesting it won but they still liked the 2018 better.

I'm someone who would never buy a bike based on reviews by anyone but I do like to listen to them to hear what bikes seem to work for certain people.

They voiced opinions. What's wrong with that? By spending significant time on bikes and including some items that didn't prove reliable they bring a little to the table that no other shootout discussed, or could address on one to three days of riding. Everybody has biases, and they have preferences. Just take it all in and decide for yourself. We've never had so much information to take in when considering bikes. Bring it on, all of it!

As long as you only ride at Glen Helen.......

Keefers and Vitals tests just seem more unbiased as they look at each specific
system that makes for a good/not so good bike. They break down engine, suspension, handling, ergos, etc. in detail and include lap times and details from several riders. Way more real world and specific. MXAs just came off as a bit opinionated and emotional (pissed that Kawi launched a bike that developed a squeak). For me it makes it hard to take them seriously. To each their own I️ guess but kodos to Keefer and Vital.

Bret wrote:

As long as you only ride at Glen Helen.......

This is my issue with their shootouts and reports... Ya they go to Milestone and LACR at times, but they keep trying to push the racing aspect of their shootout which is only done at REM. Go race TWMX series at other tracks over the months that they do the shootouts to get a better all around idea of each bike. Or go race OTHG or whatever other series is going on. IMHO, their "racing" aspect doesn't do crap for me because it's the same place over and over again every Saturday for months.

I enjoy listening to all of them keefers, vitals, mxa....etc. Because at the moment I can't afford any of these bikes.

Keefer, can you pull out the drill and verify that some airbox holes make the KTM/Husky leaders of the pack?

Shootouts have outlived their purpose.

Like the average vet guy or average rider is at the level of the "beginner/ vet/ intermediate" rider selected for all these shootouts. So because everyone thinks the Kawi is best, it's the best bike for anyone. Hardly. On the flip side, if you bought a Suzuki, you'd be throwing your money away? Not likely.

Picking a media favorite is fine but if you like the RMZ or the Honda or the Kawi...then who cares what the media think?

Unless there's some glaring defect...you can make any of these bikes work...even the yellow ones. This year, there are no glaring defects with any of the bikes. Pick a color and enjoy your purchase.

If you are in the market to buy a bike, you have a ton of options. It's a good time to be a new bike buyer.

For what it's worth:

If the media wants a truly unbiased test, they'd buy a bike, from a dealer outside of Southern California, without any set-up or assistance from the manufacturers. The average consumer doesn't have that option, why should the media?

So while some media like Keefer Inc doesn't take ad dollars and the others do, ad dollars are kinda irrelevant. The media still get their bikes set up by the manufactures...prepped for shootouts. Not a real world test in my opinion because it's not the same experience a consumer gets.

(I will not be replying to any comments regarding my opinion. Feel free to talk among yourselves.) haha

Zaugg wrote:

Shootouts have outlived their purpose.

Like the average vet guy or average rider is at the level of the "beginner/ vet/ intermediate" rider selected for all these shootouts. So because everyone thinks the Kawi is best, it's the best bike for anyone. Hardly. On the flip side, if you bought a Suzuki, you'd be throwing your money away? Not likely.

Picking a media favorite is fine but if you like the RMZ or the Honda or the Kawi...then who cares what the media think?

Unless there's some glaring defect...you can make any of these bikes work...even the yellow ones. This year, there are no glaring defects with any of the bikes. Pick a color and enjoy your purchase.

If you are in the market to buy a bike, you have a ton of options. It's a good time to be a new bike buyer.

For what it's worth:

If the media wants a truly unbiased test, they'd buy a bike, from a dealer outside of Southern California, without any set-up or assistance from the manufacturers. The average consumer doesn't have that option, why should the media?

So while some media like Keefer Inc doesn't take ad dollars and the others do, ad dollars are kinda irrelevant. The media still get their bikes set up by the manufactures...prepped for shootouts. Not a real world test in my opinion because it's not the same experience a consumer gets.

(I will not be replying to any comments regarding my opinion. Feel free to talk among yourselves.) haha

My 2020 450 Shootout next year looks to be a dealership (pick up) only shootout. Been in the works for a bit. I like that idea as well... Cheers!

Zaugg wrote:

Shootouts have outlived their purpose.

Like the average vet guy or average rider is at the level of the "beginner/ vet/ intermediate" rider selected for all these shootouts. So because everyone thinks the Kawi is best, it's the best bike for anyone. Hardly. On the flip side, if you bought a Suzuki, you'd be throwing your money away? Not likely.

Picking a media favorite is fine but if you like the RMZ or the Honda or the Kawi...then who cares what the media think?

Unless there's some glaring defect...you can make any of these bikes work...even the yellow ones. This year, there are no glaring defects with any of the bikes. Pick a color and enjoy your purchase.

If you are in the market to buy a bike, you have a ton of options. It's a good time to be a new bike buyer.

For what it's worth:

If the media wants a truly unbiased test, they'd buy a bike, from a dealer outside of Southern California, without any set-up or assistance from the manufacturers. The average consumer doesn't have that option, why should the media?

So while some media like Keefer Inc doesn't take ad dollars and the others do, ad dollars are kinda irrelevant. The media still get their bikes set up by the manufactures...prepped for shootouts. Not a real world test in my opinion because it's not the same experience a consumer gets.

(I will not be replying to any comments regarding my opinion. Feel free to talk among yourselves.) haha

Get back to work at the orange mothership.

grunkster wrote:

LOL!! "a 5gal enduro fuel tank strapped on"... do they not know that fuel weighs 7lb per gal??!! good ol' mxa.

sorta - oem tank at 2 gallons - call an enduro avg tank hard to get to 4 gallons - it's a +2 gallon diff..

How many actual hours is MXA putting on bikes for the shootout?

If indeed it's say 20 hours - and indeed the kx450f has the couple issues it had - I DO feel that sort of stuff should be included against a bike. Years back people said all I worked on/liked were yamahas - but the reality was they were all I DIDN'T have to work on - making them a GREAT long term value despite minor handling quirks.

Then all I "worked" on cared about were kawis - which was half true - all I WORKED on were kawis - they broke a lot!

When you buy a bike - THESE days I think it's all emotional with consumers. What the FEEL is best for them trumps any other consideration.

But looking at 50 hour cost and 100 hour cost can't be overlooked IMHO if you love to ride. No shootout is really addressing that because it's hard to do so accurately - not enough bike sample size.

I have a great friend who has been involved with a magazine build that got "rave reviews" - when the reality was the build blew up at hour 2 - had nothing but tuning issues, was slow right out of the gate - and was an all around POS

Somehow the magazine article gushed about it - imagine that.


All the bikes are good - all can win a race, so pick your favorite attribute and buy it for that.

Comparing MXA to Vital's shootout isn't really a good comparison as the methodologies are quite different. Vital tests the bikes stock, with just sag and clicker adjustments, and does the testing in a few days. MXA does the testing over a longer period of time, which allows them to factor in reliability (e.g. Kawasaki's clutches not lasting is something you're not likely to discover in 2 days) and ease of modifying to remedy shortcomings (e.g. drilling holes in an airbox is a cheap, easy fix). Beyond that, a lot of things will be subjective - most notably the Honda's handling, which MXA seems to be alone in seeing as flawed.

If I'm buying a bike, I appreciate as much info as I can get and appreciate all of the shootouts, but am not going to take any one of them as definitive.

Go mxa

MPJC wrote:

Comparing MXA to Vital's shootout isn't really a good comparison as the methodologies are quite different. Vital tests the bikes stock, with just sag and clicker adjustments, and does the testing in a few days. MXA does the testing over a longer period of time, which allows them to factor in reliability (e.g. Kawasaki's clutches not lasting is something you're not likely to discover in 2 days) and ease of modifying to remedy shortcomings (e.g. drilling holes in an airbox is a cheap, easy fix). Beyond that, a lot of things will be subjective - most notably the Honda's handling, which MXA seems to be alone in seeing as flawed.

If I'm buying a bike, I appreciate as much info as I can get and appreciate all of the shootouts, but am not going to take any one of them as definitive.

Should that be how the shootouts are done though? All stock other than clickers for each rider? I feel that gives you the best feedback on each bike, rather than going the way of MXA and modifying certain things? Ya, maybe do a video or an article later on about how to make it better with a little modifying. To me, shootouts should be done with completely stock bikes and only clicker/sag adjustments, that way we can see exactly how each bike is in stock form for each rider. The second you start doing any modifying it takes something away. Why stop at drilling holes on the airbox cover or swapping the slave cylinder?

Maybe I'm just looking too far into it though.

MPJC wrote:

Comparing MXA to Vital's shootout isn't really a good comparison as the methodologies are quite different. Vital tests the bikes stock, with just sag and clicker adjustments, and does the testing in a few days. MXA does the testing over a longer period of time, which allows them to factor in reliability (e.g. Kawasaki's clutches not lasting is something you're not likely to discover in 2 days) and ease of modifying to remedy shortcomings (e.g. drilling holes in an airbox is a cheap, easy fix). Beyond that, a lot of things will be subjective - most notably the Honda's handling, which MXA seems to be alone in seeing as flawed.

If I'm buying a bike, I appreciate as much info as I can get and appreciate all of the shootouts, but am not going to take any one of them as definitive.

mattyhamz2 wrote:

Should that be how the shootouts are done though? All stock other than clickers for each rider? I feel that gives you the best feedback on each bike, rather than going the way of MXA and modifying certain things? Ya, maybe do a video or an article later on about how to make it better with a little modifying. To me, shootouts should be done with completely stock bikes and only clicker/sag adjustments, that way we can see exactly how each bike is in stock form for each rider. The second you start doing any modifying it takes something away. Why stop at drilling holes on the airbox cover or swapping the slave cylinder?

Maybe I'm just looking too far into it though.

I think it’s helpful to have both perspectives.

I appreciate all the info from all the sources, and let's face it...for FREE!

I like to know what individual riders think of each bike on different tracks. I like to hear about modifications that address any big shortfalls, or even just simple mods that make a difference. I like to hear how the bikes hold up over time. It's all information, process, or weigh into your own decisions as you see fit.

The best answer would be to let me ride each bike at my regular track! Keefer, you need a 51yo slow dude for your east coast test!

Here's the missing line from the intro of the video.

"We went to a toxic waste dump for our beauty shots of the bikes..."

GuyB wrote:

Here's the missing line from the intro of the video.

"We went to a toxic waste dump for our beauty shots of the bikes..."

I was wondering about that green water myself....