MXA: Jody’s Manifesto Of An Unrepentant Two-Stroke Aficionado

Edited Date/Time 1/2/2013 4:00pm
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/JODYS-MANIFESTO-OF-AN-UNREPENTA…

to DC

(7) What’s fair? How about a 250cc class that is open to 250cc machinery regardless of its engine type. The four-stroke only got where it is today because someone wrote a rule in 1997 that allowed to be bigger. That same someone could could write a new rule in 2013 that would make the advantage go away.
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Matthes
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12/30/2012 9:52am
twosmoke30 wrote:
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/JODYS-MANIFESTO-OF-AN-UNREPENTANT-TWOSTROKE-AFICIO-7970.aspx to DC [b](7) What’s fair? How about a 250cc class that is open to 250cc machinery regardless of its engine type. The four-stroke only got...
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/JODYS-MANIFESTO-OF-AN-UNREPENTA…

to DC

(7) What’s fair? How about a 250cc class that is open to 250cc machinery regardless of its engine type. The four-stroke only got where it is today because someone wrote a rule in 1997 that allowed to be bigger. That same someone could could write a new rule in 2013 that would make the advantage go away.
Revisionist history for sure, he wasn't always for the two-stroke like he says. Anyone have a copy of MXA's back when he was telling everyone to buy one, they're the greatest thing ever, they won shoot-outs. MXA has a part to blame for the increased sales because they were telling everyone to buy one.

If you change the rule and some guys get on two-strokes and win races, what are you going to tell Suzuki, Kawasaki and Honda who spend millions of dollars racing your series and don't have a bike to compete with?

Sorry guys? Thanks for the support but now we've made it so you're going to be at a competitive disadvantage. They'll just go home.

Blame the AMA back in the day for making the ridiculous displacement rules and then being slow to change them. Blame all the dudes who paid full pop for thumpers and then when they all flew out the door, blame the OEM's for giving consumers what they want. Just don't blame the people in power now because this horse has left the barn.
avidchimp
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12/30/2012 10:02am
twosmoke30 wrote:
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/JODYS-MANIFESTO-OF-AN-UNREPENTANT-TWOSTROKE-AFICIO-7970.aspx to DC [b](7) What’s fair? How about a 250cc class that is open to 250cc machinery regardless of its engine type. The four-stroke only got...
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/JODYS-MANIFESTO-OF-AN-UNREPENTA…

to DC

(7) What’s fair? How about a 250cc class that is open to 250cc machinery regardless of its engine type. The four-stroke only got where it is today because someone wrote a rule in 1997 that allowed to be bigger. That same someone could could write a new rule in 2013 that would make the advantage go away.
Matthes wrote:
Revisionist history for sure, he wasn't always for the two-stroke like he says. Anyone have a copy of MXA's back when he was telling everyone to...
Revisionist history for sure, he wasn't always for the two-stroke like he says. Anyone have a copy of MXA's back when he was telling everyone to buy one, they're the greatest thing ever, they won shoot-outs. MXA has a part to blame for the increased sales because they were telling everyone to buy one.

If you change the rule and some guys get on two-strokes and win races, what are you going to tell Suzuki, Kawasaki and Honda who spend millions of dollars racing your series and don't have a bike to compete with?

Sorry guys? Thanks for the support but now we've made it so you're going to be at a competitive disadvantage. They'll just go home.

Blame the AMA back in the day for making the ridiculous displacement rules and then being slow to change them. Blame all the dudes who paid full pop for thumpers and then when they all flew out the door, blame the OEM's for giving consumers what they want. Just don't blame the people in power now because this horse has left the barn.
Steve, did the factories take their ball and go home when Yamaha was the only manufacturer with a competitive 4 stroke in the late 90's?
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12/30/2012 10:03am
Yep, I remember MXA drooling all over the YZ 400 saying it was the best motocross bike made.
Falcon
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12/30/2012 10:09am
The factories all quickly made R&D efforts and produced thumpers after Yamaha introduced the 400F. The same would likely be true if competitive 2-strokes became popular again. Somehow, I have a problem believing they would, even though I prefer a 2-stroke. The riding styles have changed so much that even a "competitive" 2-stroke would have to be ridden harder.

The Shop

malachi177
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12/30/2012 10:10am
avidchimp wrote:
Steve, did the factories take their ball and go home when Yamaha was the only manufacturer with a competitive 4 stroke in the late 90's?
Good question!!
Matthes
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12/30/2012 10:17am
avidchimp wrote:
Steve, did the factories take their ball and go home when Yamaha was the only manufacturer with a competitive 4 stroke in the late 90's?
Times are different now. At this point, with one OEM guy telling me off-road bikes sales are 70% off from ten years ago, the OEM's aren't going to start making new two-strokes in hopes of selling them. Look at all the advancements they've done on four-strokes and R&D money they've poured into them.

If you did change the rule, you'd have to give the OEM's a 3 year warning. That's generally how far ahead they are in planning.
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12/30/2012 10:23am
I get that, and I agree whole heartedly, but the factories would still stick around. Besides, the R&D costs to adapt a "modern" 2 stroke power plant with todays modern chassis is a whole lot cheaper and feasible than when the teams were chasing the 4 stroke dream.
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12/30/2012 10:26am Edited Date/Time 12/30/2012 10:28am
"THERE IS ALWAYS THE QUESTION IN THE BACK MY MIND AS TO WHETHER I’M FASTER ON A TWO-STROKE OR A FOUR-STROKE. I DON’T KNOW BECAUSE I’VE NEVER RACED AGAINST MYSELF."

The guy runs a magazine but can't get a stopwatch to figure this out?

The guy doesn't go to pro races so as long as Glen Helen allows 250t vs 250f why would he care? Do they not?
newmann
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12/30/2012 10:44am
Matthes wrote:
Times are different now. At this point, with one OEM guy telling me off-road bikes sales are 70% off from ten years ago, the OEM's aren't...
Times are different now. At this point, with one OEM guy telling me off-road bikes sales are 70% off from ten years ago, the OEM's aren't going to start making new two-strokes in hopes of selling them. Look at all the advancements they've done on four-strokes and R&D money they've poured into them.

If you did change the rule, you'd have to give the OEM's a 3 year warning. That's generally how far ahead they are in planning.
Ten years you say? I'll bet that's when that mfg. started pumping out the four strokes and killing off their 2's. 70%, I'd say they shot themselves in the foot maybe. Bringing back the 125's as a more affordable entry to the sport couldn't be a bad thing for any of them.

Seeing how the older vet rider is the meat and potato market for mx these days, a lot of these folks have seen the downside of the four stroke(mostly the 250F's) and have pointed their kids in a different direction. I might even say 70% of them have pointed their kids in a different direction....
newmann
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12/30/2012 10:47am
And that whole R&D arguement? Pffftttt! How the hell can KTM keep refining their bikes damn near every year? Maybe the Japanese have just become lazy and inefficient at what they do.
Choppy
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12/30/2012 11:09am
newmann wrote:
Ten years you say? I'll bet that's when that mfg. started pumping out the four strokes and killing off their 2's. 70%, I'd say they shot...
Ten years you say? I'll bet that's when that mfg. started pumping out the four strokes and killing off their 2's. 70%, I'd say they shot themselves in the foot maybe. Bringing back the 125's as a more affordable entry to the sport couldn't be a bad thing for any of them.

Seeing how the older vet rider is the meat and potato market for mx these days, a lot of these folks have seen the downside of the four stroke(mostly the 250F's) and have pointed their kids in a different direction. I might even say 70% of them have pointed their kids in a different direction....
You can still buy 125's so how would that help?
mooch
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12/30/2012 11:26am
newmann wrote:
And that whole R&D arguement? Pffftttt! How the hell can KTM keep refining their bikes damn near every year? Maybe the Japanese have just become lazy...
And that whole R&D arguement? Pffftttt! How the hell can KTM keep refining their bikes damn near every year? Maybe the Japanese have just become lazy and inefficient at what they do.
Totally agree.

Matthes is not only drinking the industry Kool Aid, he's also doing his best to get everyone else to drink it.
Matthes
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12/30/2012 11:51am
newmann wrote:
And that whole R&D arguement? Pffftttt! How the hell can KTM keep refining their bikes damn near every year? Maybe the Japanese have just become lazy...
And that whole R&D arguement? Pffftttt! How the hell can KTM keep refining their bikes damn near every year? Maybe the Japanese have just become lazy and inefficient at what they do.
Please define "refining" their bike every year?

The no-link 450SXF was pretty much the same bike for years.

They've gone through and re-done the 250F twice in six years which is fine but not exactly every year. Yes, they made an all-new 450 but so did Yamaha three years ago (Honda did it this year) and now, in 2014, Yamaha is making major changes. Besides, the all-new Dungey bike motor was already based off their off-road model motor. The designer of the motor told me that himself. It wasn't all-new.

There's also the economy dump and the Yen falling in dollar while the Euro stayed strong helping out the guys at KTM. More profit for the Austrians than the Japanese. But still, Japanese guys haven't been that behind compared to KTM.

For an example of changing the rules to suit different machines that other OEM's don't have, see AMA roadracing and what's become of that series. We all like pro mx and sx and want it to be supported strong right?
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12/30/2012 11:53am
Matthes wrote:
Times are different now. At this point, with one OEM guy telling me off-road bikes sales are 70% off from ten years ago, the OEM's aren't...
Times are different now. At this point, with one OEM guy telling me off-road bikes sales are 70% off from ten years ago, the OEM's aren't going to start making new two-strokes in hopes of selling them. Look at all the advancements they've done on four-strokes and R&D money they've poured into them.

If you did change the rule, you'd have to give the OEM's a 3 year warning. That's generally how far ahead they are in planning.
newmann wrote:
Ten years you say? I'll bet that's when that mfg. started pumping out the four strokes and killing off their 2's. 70%, I'd say they shot...
Ten years you say? I'll bet that's when that mfg. started pumping out the four strokes and killing off their 2's. 70%, I'd say they shot themselves in the foot maybe. Bringing back the 125's as a more affordable entry to the sport couldn't be a bad thing for any of them.

Seeing how the older vet rider is the meat and potato market for mx these days, a lot of these folks have seen the downside of the four stroke(mostly the 250F's) and have pointed their kids in a different direction. I might even say 70% of them have pointed their kids in a different direction....
I am a vet and love my 450, what are these downsides you speak of? Never had any engine problems, valves haven't moved since I bought it new, and the power works perfect for me..
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12/30/2012 11:56am
newmann wrote:
And that whole R&D arguement? Pffftttt! How the hell can KTM keep refining their bikes damn near every year? Maybe the Japanese have just become lazy...
And that whole R&D arguement? Pffftttt! How the hell can KTM keep refining their bikes damn near every year? Maybe the Japanese have just become lazy and inefficient at what they do.
Matthes wrote:
Please define "refining" their bike every year? The no-link 450SXF was pretty much the same bike for years. They've gone through and re-done the 250F twice...
Please define "refining" their bike every year?

The no-link 450SXF was pretty much the same bike for years.

They've gone through and re-done the 250F twice in six years which is fine but not exactly every year. Yes, they made an all-new 450 but so did Yamaha three years ago (Honda did it this year) and now, in 2014, Yamaha is making major changes. Besides, the all-new Dungey bike motor was already based off their off-road model motor. The designer of the motor told me that himself. It wasn't all-new.

There's also the economy dump and the Yen falling in dollar while the Euro stayed strong helping out the guys at KTM. More profit for the Austrians than the Japanese. But still, Japanese guys haven't been that behind compared to KTM.

For an example of changing the rules to suit different machines that other OEM's don't have, see AMA roadracing and what's become of that series. We all like pro mx and sx and want it to be supported strong right?
Common sense stuff your posting...seems folks will say black if you say white and vis versa..my guess they are not even reading your whole post and understanding it...IMO
Matthes
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12/30/2012 11:57am
Matthes wrote:
Times are different now. At this point, with one OEM guy telling me off-road bikes sales are 70% off from ten years ago, the OEM's aren't...
Times are different now. At this point, with one OEM guy telling me off-road bikes sales are 70% off from ten years ago, the OEM's aren't going to start making new two-strokes in hopes of selling them. Look at all the advancements they've done on four-strokes and R&D money they've poured into them.

If you did change the rule, you'd have to give the OEM's a 3 year warning. That's generally how far ahead they are in planning.
newmann wrote:
Ten years you say? I'll bet that's when that mfg. started pumping out the four strokes and killing off their 2's. 70%, I'd say they shot...
Ten years you say? I'll bet that's when that mfg. started pumping out the four strokes and killing off their 2's. 70%, I'd say they shot themselves in the foot maybe. Bringing back the 125's as a more affordable entry to the sport couldn't be a bad thing for any of them.

Seeing how the older vet rider is the meat and potato market for mx these days, a lot of these folks have seen the downside of the four stroke(mostly the 250F's) and have pointed their kids in a different direction. I might even say 70% of them have pointed their kids in a different direction....
Brad460 wrote:
I am a vet and love my 450, what are these downsides you speak of? Never had any engine problems, valves haven't moved since I bought...
I am a vet and love my 450, what are these downsides you speak of? Never had any engine problems, valves haven't moved since I bought it new, and the power works perfect for me..
That's what all these guys say over and over. I've got one buddy with 100 hours on his 06 YZ450F and another with 60 on his CRF... change the oil, adjust the valves (using the VERY detailed and great manuals that come with these bikes) and you're fine. You'll do 2 or 3 two-stroke top ends in this time, the dollars work out to be the same.

If you're high end racing in the 250 class then yes, you'll be spending a lot of money. So now that we eliminate that 3% of people you're left with a reliable bike that needs simple maintenance from time to time.

And if you want to get into pro racing, a privateer in the 450 class has NEVER been so close to a factory bike as it is now. Including the two stroke days. So better for 450's and worse for 250's...
BAMX
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12/30/2012 12:02pm
newmann wrote:
And that whole R&D arguement? Pffftttt! How the hell can KTM keep refining their bikes damn near every year? Maybe the Japanese have just become lazy...
And that whole R&D arguement? Pffftttt! How the hell can KTM keep refining their bikes damn near every year? Maybe the Japanese have just become lazy and inefficient at what they do.
Exactly....At this point all I see is KTM giving everyone what they want from 450 4T's to 150 2T's on all differnt styles. Time will tell but if you have gone to any kind of offroad race in the last few years you have seen that KTM has over 50% of the market and climbing. While Honda is now almost non existent. When you quit listening to your customers, you get your ass handed to you in sales.
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12/30/2012 12:12pm
Matthes wrote:
That's what all these guys say over and over. I've got one buddy with 100 hours on his 06 YZ450F and another with 60 on his...
That's what all these guys say over and over. I've got one buddy with 100 hours on his 06 YZ450F and another with 60 on his CRF... change the oil, adjust the valves (using the VERY detailed and great manuals that come with these bikes) and you're fine. You'll do 2 or 3 two-stroke top ends in this time, the dollars work out to be the same.

If you're high end racing in the 250 class then yes, you'll be spending a lot of money. So now that we eliminate that 3% of people you're left with a reliable bike that needs simple maintenance from time to time.

And if you want to get into pro racing, a privateer in the 450 class has NEVER been so close to a factory bike as it is now. Including the two stroke days. So better for 450's and worse for 250's...
Guys run a hundred hours on 250 2 strokes so you argument is BS. Neither is right and as someone who actually owns both, 4 strokes are way more expensive especially if they blow. Then, it isn't even close. I don't gey how you guys compare a $1000 top end job to 2 or 3 $150 top end jobs and have them being equal.
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12/30/2012 12:25pm
Let 2 strokes run real race gas

Let 150cc two strokes run against the 250F's. Or 125's against 200's.

Have 250cc two strokes run against 350cc four strokes.

Nobody has to start over, just change cylinder design.
125
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12/30/2012 12:29pm
Let 2 strokes run real race gas Let 150cc two strokes run against the 250F's. Or 125's against 200's. Have 250cc two strokes run against 350cc...
Let 2 strokes run real race gas

Let 150cc two strokes run against the 250F's. Or 125's against 200's.

Have 250cc two strokes run against 350cc four strokes.

Nobody has to start over, just change cylinder design.
This is the best approach. Always has been the real answer.

Oh...and... These were the AMA rules all along, pre-1997, by the way minus the 150cc two stroke part.
12/30/2012 12:29pm
BAMX wrote:
Guys run a hundred hours on 250 2 strokes so you argument is BS. Neither is right and as someone who actually owns both, 4 strokes...
Guys run a hundred hours on 250 2 strokes so you argument is BS. Neither is right and as someone who actually owns both, 4 strokes are way more expensive especially if they blow. Then, it isn't even close. I don't gey how you guys compare a $1000 top end job to 2 or 3 $150 top end jobs and have them being equal.
The "industry" folks have to tell the consumer they are wrong, in order to have a job the following week.

If they admitted that riding a two stroke was indeed cheaper and more fun....how would any of those portly loud thumpers ever get sold?
Choppy
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12/30/2012 12:30pm
Let two- strokes have a two-stroke class. Wait a second, they already have two- stroke only classes...

People just want to complain.
125
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12/30/2012 12:30pm
Anyone who gets 100 hours out of any bike, 2 or 4, is not racing it.
Choppy
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12/30/2012 12:32pm Edited Date/Time 12/30/2012 12:34pm
125 wrote:
Anyone who gets 100 hours out of any bike, 2 or 4, is not racing it.
Or they actually work on the thing and maintain it. I've seen plenty of two and four's get that but people that aren't mechanically inclined or like to work on things won't and hate to admit it.
mx317
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12/30/2012 12:36pm
Choppy wrote:
"THERE IS ALWAYS THE QUESTION IN THE BACK MY MIND AS TO WHETHER I’M FASTER ON A TWO-STROKE OR A FOUR-STROKE. I DON’T KNOW BECAUSE I’VE...
"THERE IS ALWAYS THE QUESTION IN THE BACK MY MIND AS TO WHETHER I’M FASTER ON A TWO-STROKE OR A FOUR-STROKE. I DON’T KNOW BECAUSE I’VE NEVER RACED AGAINST MYSELF."

The guy runs a magazine but can't get a stopwatch to figure this out?

The guy doesn't go to pro races so as long as Glen Helen allows 250t vs 250f why would he care? Do they not?
Lap times don't tell the whole story of a race. You have to factor in the start, the fatigue difference, and the type of track you are racing on. The way I could tell I was faster on a 450 vs a 250t was that I got better finishes on the same tracks against the same people. Now if they would just make a 350-400cc modern smoker, I would be all in.
GuyB
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12/30/2012 12:36pm
Time for popcorn. Or a road ride. Road ride wins.
Matthes
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12/30/2012 12:37pm
This thing is just going to turn into what these things always do so I'm out. I generally stay out of these arguments, there's no changing anyone's mind and then crackpots start talking about industry conspiracies and it goes downhill from there.

I grew up and raced two-strokes & was a mechanic for a long time when they raced. And four-strokes have made sx more predictable & less exciting than it was in those days. But you can't change the rules now, it wouldn't be fair for the reasons I've already stated. And as a bit of a gear head, I love the advances and technology of the thumpers as opposed to years and years of two-strokes being the same exact bike.

BUT the original post was about MXA and that's what caused me to post. The hypocrisy of Jody is amazing and if he would just come out and admit that he LOVED the four-strokes and promoted the shit out of them when they first hit the scene (and therefore helped to ruin the two-stroke sales in a small way) and say that he was wrong, it would be fine. But he's too arrogant for to do that and that is why his manifesto's are garbage. Same as the anti-GP stance he took until his buddies at GH got a GP and he switched to liking the GP's- but now he hates the GP"s again. It's BS and I'm not sure how anyone can take him seriously at this point.

It's a shame because it was a great magazine.
malachi177
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12/30/2012 12:37pm
Matthes wrote:
That's what all these guys say over and over. I've got one buddy with 100 hours on his 06 YZ450F and another with 60 on his...
That's what all these guys say over and over. I've got one buddy with 100 hours on his 06 YZ450F and another with 60 on his CRF... change the oil, adjust the valves (using the VERY detailed and great manuals that come with these bikes) and you're fine. You'll do 2 or 3 two-stroke top ends in this time, the dollars work out to be the same.

If you're high end racing in the 250 class then yes, you'll be spending a lot of money. So now that we eliminate that 3% of people you're left with a reliable bike that needs simple maintenance from time to time.

And if you want to get into pro racing, a privateer in the 450 class has NEVER been so close to a factory bike as it is now. Including the two stroke days. So better for 450's and worse for 250's...
2 or 3 top ends on a two stroke at 60 hrs?/Huh See that's a MYTH right there. Ever since the synthetic pre-mix has come out you can easily get that out of a two-stroke. My bikes (91'RM125/ 08'RM250), and my sons bikes (97'RM80/08 RM'125) get the pistons replaced at the 65 hr mark. I run Wiseco pro-lite pistons, Amsoil Dominator at 40:1 and Twin Air filters with No-toil filter oil. I clean the air filters after every ride/race. I could even get away with just new rings. The pistons look new when they come out. But I replace them anyways. I've had ZERO top end failures since running this set up. I ride with a guy that races an 06 KX250. He raced for two seasons on the same piston. Still looked decent when he finally decided to replace it.
malachi177
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12/30/2012 12:41pm
125 wrote:
Anyone who gets 100 hours out of any bike, 2 or 4, is not racing it.
Choppy wrote:
Or they actually work on the thing and maintain it. I've seen plenty of two and four's get that but people that aren't mechanically inclined or...
Or they actually work on the thing and maintain it. I've seen plenty of two and four's get that but people that aren't mechanically inclined or like to work on things won't and hate to admit it.
^^this^^
GuyB
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12/30/2012 12:43pm Edited Date/Time 12/30/2012 12:44pm
Matthes wrote:
This thing is just going to turn into what these things always do so I'm out. I generally stay out of these arguments, there's no changing...
This thing is just going to turn into what these things always do so I'm out. I generally stay out of these arguments, there's no changing anyone's mind and then crackpots start talking about industry conspiracies and it goes downhill from there.

I grew up and raced two-strokes & was a mechanic for a long time when they raced. And four-strokes have made sx more predictable & less exciting than it was in those days. But you can't change the rules now, it wouldn't be fair for the reasons I've already stated. And as a bit of a gear head, I love the advances and technology of the thumpers as opposed to years and years of two-strokes being the same exact bike.

BUT the original post was about MXA and that's what caused me to post. The hypocrisy of Jody is amazing and if he would just come out and admit that he LOVED the four-strokes and promoted the shit out of them when they first hit the scene (and therefore helped to ruin the two-stroke sales in a small way) and say that he was wrong, it would be fine. But he's too arrogant for to do that and that is why his manifesto's are garbage. Same as the anti-GP stance he took until his buddies at GH got a GP and he switched to liking the GP's- but now he hates the GP"s again. It's BS and I'm not sure how anyone can take him seriously at this point.

It's a shame because it was a great magazine.
You know how big an industry conspiracy this is? This thread's still here. Maybe conspiracy theorists can explain that.

Thanks for trying, Steve.

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