MXA 450 Shootout

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1/9/2018 5:59 AM

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1/9/2018 7:19 AM

great info. in depth and good insight .

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1/9/2018 8:43 AM

Shy of four months after ours was published...they shot the video around three months ago and we knew their results around that same time. Their video is the longest at 17 minutes but there's lots of dead space in terms of talking...then claiming any Shootout that didn't pick the KTM for the win is wrong... laughing

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1/9/2018 8:45 AM

Well... that was a bit cringeworthy.

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1/9/2018 8:56 AM

If anyone wants a Shootout that's much larger than any magazine based one, is free to read and has a video, plus it's been around for four months...it's right here: http://www.vitalmx.com/features/2018-Vital-MX-450-Shootout,5510

If you're the listening type, check out Keefer's podcasts too...I bet you'll learn more from ours or his, rather than MXA's...whistling

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1/9/2018 8:58 AM

ML512 wrote:

Shy of four months after ours was published...they shot the video around three months ago and we knew their results around that same time. Their video is the longest at 17 minutes but there's lots of dead space in terms of talking...then claiming any Shootout that didn't pick the KTM for the win is wrong... laughing

KTM as always 2 fulls pages of adds just before Jody editorial... They lost me last year when they did a shootout in a shootout with the KTM vs the Honda... Why do that? They didn't do that with the Suzuki this year and it's a brand new bike like Honda last year. For me it was just an opportunity to promote (remember the add before Jody editorial) the KTM and bith on other bike.

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1/9/2018 9:32 AM

charley586 wrote:

KTM as always 2 fulls pages of adds just before Jody editorial... They lost me last year when they did a shootout in a shootout with the KTM vs the Honda... Why do that? They didn't do that with the Suzuki this year and it's a brand new bike like Honda last year. For me it was just an opportunity to promote (remember the add before Jody editorial) the KTM and bith on other bike.

You seem to have a sticking point about ads in magazines. If they had no ads, you have no magazine. Just how it works regardless of genre.

The most coveted ad space in a mag is the back cover, then followed closely by the first two pages inside the front cover. While I have no first hand info, I would purely guess that those pages became available and the company willing to pay the most got them. An ad right before Jody's Box isn't there because they are cutting Jody a check for zillions of dollars every month, the ad has always, and will always, be there. Thankfully for KTM they are getting a premium spot for consumers to view their marketing, while the check KTM cuts each month thankfully helps to keep MXA open and more people employed in our sport.

To boil it down, just because you see ads in a mag does not mean their reviews/shootouts have been affected. In some companies, sure, but not in all. Remember the days back when Suzi pulled their MXA ads and wouldn't give them a bike for a shootout? I would trust MXA more than any other mx mag when it comes to truthful testing, but that is just my opinion.

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www.bettercallsaul.com
Die Antwoord

1/9/2018 10:13 AM

ML512 wrote:

If anyone wants a Shootout that's much larger than any magazine based one, is free to read and has a video, plus it's been around for four months...it's right here: http://www.vitalmx.com/features/2018-Vital-MX-450-Shootout,5510

If you're the listening type, check out Keefer's podcasts too...I bet you'll learn more from ours or his, rather than MXA's...whistling

4 months and 4 minutes later, they finally break it down. The intro was longer than the actual insight.

Thank you ML and Vital for the excellent shootout content.

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MG

1/9/2018 10:15 AM

gt80rider wrote:

You seem to have a sticking point about ads in magazines. If they had no ads, you have no magazine. Just how it works regardless of genre.

The most coveted ad space in a mag is the back cover, then followed closely by the first two pages inside the front cover. While I have no first hand info, I would purely guess that those pages became available and the company willing to pay the most got them. An ad right before Jody's Box isn't there because they are cutting Jody a check for zillions of dollars every month, the ad has always, and will always, be there. Thankfully for KTM they are getting a premium spot for consumers to view their marketing, while the check KTM cuts each month thankfully helps to keep MXA open and more people employed in our sport.

To boil it down, just because you see ads in a mag does not mean their reviews/shootouts have been affected. In some companies, sure, but not in all. Remember the days back when Suzi pulled their MXA ads and wouldn't give them a bike for a shootout? I would trust MXA more than any other mx mag when it comes to truthful testing, but that is just my opinion.

True. But you are delusional if you can't see the MXA bias for KTM/HUSQVARNA.

If a person is a KTM fan, then go to MXA for all your mx/sx news.

Comparable to, if you're a Trump hater, then go watch CNN, or any NBC affiliate

Vital mx seems the most neutral as far as testing because they are consciously trying to be objective. They aren't picking to satisfy the forum fan base, being because of the overall vitard-ness we are.

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1/9/2018 10:42 AM

ML512 wrote:

Shy of four months after ours was published...they shot the video around three months ago and we knew their results around that same time. Their video is the longest at 17 minutes but there's lots of dead space in terms of talking...then claiming any Shootout that didn't pick the KTM for the win is wrong... laughing

charley586 wrote:

KTM as always 2 fulls pages of adds just before Jody editorial... They lost me last year when they did a shootout in a shootout with the KTM vs the Honda... Why do that? They didn't do that with the Suzuki this year and it's a brand new bike like Honda last year. For me it was just an opportunity to promote (remember the add before Jody editorial) the KTM and bith on other bike.

gt80rider wrote:

You seem to have a sticking point about ads in magazines. If they had no ads, you have no magazine. Just how it works regardless of genre.

The most coveted ad space in a mag is the back cover, then followed closely by the first two pages inside the front cover. While I have no first hand info, I would purely guess that those pages became available and the company willing to pay the most got them. An ad right before Jody's Box isn't there because they are cutting Jody a check for zillions of dollars every month, the ad has always, and will always, be there. Thankfully for KTM they are getting a premium spot for consumers to view their marketing, while the check KTM cuts each month thankfully helps to keep MXA open and more people employed in our sport.

To boil it down, just because you see ads in a mag does not mean their reviews/shootouts have been affected. In some companies, sure, but not in all. Remember the days back when Suzi pulled their MXA ads and wouldn't give them a bike for a shootout? I would trust MXA more than any other mx mag when it comes to truthful testing, but that is just my opinion.

I know they need ads to pay the bills. I used to fully trust MXA for their bike reviews and when I had the chances to test the bikes I agreed a lot of time with their opinions. But in the last few years them praised too much the KTM/Husky and pi.... on all other brand like an old grumpy man.

The way Vital, Keefer or even TWMX (to a certain point) are doing their shootout are much more revelant. You can read review from all different riders and can relate your riding/age/weight to your situation.

btw I'm still subscribed to MXA after 10 years. I still enjoy most of the contents but at a certain point you need to stop beeing grumpy or nostalgic and move on.

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1/9/2018 10:45 AM

charley586 wrote:

KTM as always 2 fulls pages of adds just before Jody editorial... They lost me last year when they did a shootout in a shootout with the KTM vs the Honda... Why do that? They didn't do that with the Suzuki this year and it's a brand new bike like Honda last year. For me it was just an opportunity to promote (remember the add before Jody editorial) the KTM and bith on other bike.

gt80rider wrote:

You seem to have a sticking point about ads in magazines. If they had no ads, you have no magazine. Just how it works regardless of genre.

The most coveted ad space in a mag is the back cover, then followed closely by the first two pages inside the front cover. While I have no first hand info, I would purely guess that those pages became available and the company willing to pay the most got them. An ad right before Jody's Box isn't there because they are cutting Jody a check for zillions of dollars every month, the ad has always, and will always, be there. Thankfully for KTM they are getting a premium spot for consumers to view their marketing, while the check KTM cuts each month thankfully helps to keep MXA open and more people employed in our sport.

To boil it down, just because you see ads in a mag does not mean their reviews/shootouts have been affected. In some companies, sure, but not in all. Remember the days back when Suzi pulled their MXA ads and wouldn't give them a bike for a shootout? I would trust MXA more than any other mx mag when it comes to truthful testing, but that is just my opinion.

charley586 wrote:

I know they need ads to pay the bills. I used to fully trust MXA for their bike reviews and when I had the chances to test the bikes I agreed a lot of time with their opinions. But in the last few years them praised too much the KTM/Husky and pi.... on all other brand like an old grumpy man.

The way Vital, Keefer or even TWMX (to a certain point) are doing their shootout are much more revelant. You can read review from all different riders and can relate your riding/age/weight to your situation.

btw I'm still subscribed to MXA after 10 years. I still enjoy most of the contents but at a certain point you need to stop beeing grumpy or nostalgic and move on.

Better not tell the 2 stroke guys lol.

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1/9/2018 10:55 AM

charley586 wrote:

KTM as always 2 fulls pages of adds just before Jody editorial... They lost me last year when they did a shootout in a shootout with the KTM vs the Honda... Why do that? They didn't do that with the Suzuki this year and it's a brand new bike like Honda last year. For me it was just an opportunity to promote (remember the add before Jody editorial) the KTM and bith on other bike.

gt80rider wrote:

You seem to have a sticking point about ads in magazines. If they had no ads, you have no magazine. Just how it works regardless of genre.

The most coveted ad space in a mag is the back cover, then followed closely by the first two pages inside the front cover. While I have no first hand info, I would purely guess that those pages became available and the company willing to pay the most got them. An ad right before Jody's Box isn't there because they are cutting Jody a check for zillions of dollars every month, the ad has always, and will always, be there. Thankfully for KTM they are getting a premium spot for consumers to view their marketing, while the check KTM cuts each month thankfully helps to keep MXA open and more people employed in our sport.

To boil it down, just because you see ads in a mag does not mean their reviews/shootouts have been affected. In some companies, sure, but not in all. Remember the days back when Suzi pulled their MXA ads and wouldn't give them a bike for a shootout? I would trust MXA more than any other mx mag when it comes to truthful testing, but that is just my opinion.

aroark247 wrote:

True. But you are delusional if you can't see the MXA bias for KTM/HUSQVARNA.

If a person is a KTM fan, then go to MXA for all your mx/sx news.

Comparable to, if you're a Trump hater, then go watch CNN, or any NBC affiliate

Vital mx seems the most neutral as far as testing because they are consciously trying to be objective. They aren't picking to satisfy the forum fan base, being because of the overall vitard-ness we are.

If MXA consistently expresses that in their judgement, based on their experience, that KTM/Husqvarna makes the best bikes, this is not bias. It would be bias if they determined prior to having a basis for judgment that KTM/Husqvarna makes the best bikes, and they expressed that opinion irrespective of the evidence.

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Current rides: 2016 KTM 250SXF, 2017 KTM 350SXF

1/9/2018 11:01 AM

ML512 wrote:

Shy of four months after ours was published...they shot the video around three months ago and we knew their results around that same time. Their video is the longest at 17 minutes but there's lots of dead space in terms of talking...then claiming any Shootout that didn't pick the KTM for the win is wrong... laughing

It was a joke. 18 pages total, 3 full page pics only 1 with full page write up. The rest were half or less page write up. Seven pages dedicated to polishing their own knob, if you will. If it wasn't for the RMATVMC gift card (haven't received yet BTW) I would be embarrassed that I paid for a subscription. Seriously, not sure what affiliation they have with KTM but it is ridiculous.

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We are the sum of a 1,000 lives. What we know is almost nothing at all.

1/9/2018 11:26 AM

Cant believe how much they like the suzuki, thought they would have hated it

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1/9/2018 11:32 AM

ML512 wrote:

Shy of four months after ours was published...they shot the video around three months ago and we knew their results around that same time. Their video is the longest at 17 minutes but there's lots of dead space in terms of talking...then claiming any Shootout that didn't pick the KTM for the win is wrong... laughing

Right along the lines of Jody talking about how if you don’t race, you aren’t a real motocrosser. Arrogance has long been an issue at that magazine.

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1/9/2018 11:36 AM

For hardcore racing........

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1/9/2018 11:37 AM

ML512 wrote:

Shy of four months after ours was published...they shot the video around three months ago and we knew their results around that same time. Their video is the longest at 17 minutes but there's lots of dead space in terms of talking...then claiming any Shootout that didn't pick the KTM for the win is wrong... laughing

Kenny Lingus wrote:

It was a joke. 18 pages total, 3 full page pics only 1 with full page write up. The rest were half or less page write up. Seven pages dedicated to polishing their own knob, if you will. If it wasn't for the RMATVMC gift card (haven't received yet BTW) I would be embarrassed that I paid for a subscription. Seriously, not sure what affiliation they have with KTM but it is ridiculous.

It wasn't just 10 years ago that "oh the KTM is still too euro, can't make it work right..."
Of all the majors KTM continues to push development. and are doing it every year.
Do you think the others would have advanced their tech had it not been for a little
market share company (KTM) dominating in the development. The whole market has
benefited from KTM. Who would have thunk, a company that spend a shit ton of
money to better their product might spend a shit ton of money on advertising? What a
novel idea? As far as where they spend it, my guess is MXA has an older demographic
which is more likely to buy the KTM. Hmm more bang for you buck?
TM

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www.alljackedupinc.com home of the Switch Hauler, the only modular hauling system www.sprocketstuff.com home of the Counter Sprocket Tool

1/9/2018 11:42 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/9/2018 1:07 PM

charley586 wrote:

KTM as always 2 fulls pages of adds just before Jody editorial... They lost me last year when they did a shootout in a shootout with the KTM vs the Honda... Why do that? They didn't do that with the Suzuki this year and it's a brand new bike like Honda last year. For me it was just an opportunity to promote (remember the add before Jody editorial) the KTM and bith on other bike.

gt80rider wrote:

You seem to have a sticking point about ads in magazines. If they had no ads, you have no magazine. Just how it works regardless of genre.

The most coveted ad space in a mag is the back cover, then followed closely by the first two pages inside the front cover. While I have no first hand info, I would purely guess that those pages became available and the company willing to pay the most got them. An ad right before Jody's Box isn't there because they are cutting Jody a check for zillions of dollars every month, the ad has always, and will always, be there. Thankfully for KTM they are getting a premium spot for consumers to view their marketing, while the check KTM cuts each month thankfully helps to keep MXA open and more people employed in our sport.

To boil it down, just because you see ads in a mag does not mean their reviews/shootouts have been affected. In some companies, sure, but not in all. Remember the days back when Suzi pulled their MXA ads and wouldn't give them a bike for a shootout? I would trust MXA more than any other mx mag when it comes to truthful testing, but that is just my opinion.

aroark247 wrote:

True. But you are delusional if you can't see the MXA bias for KTM/HUSQVARNA.

If a person is a KTM fan, then go to MXA for all your mx/sx news.

Comparable to, if you're a Trump hater, then go watch CNN, or any NBC affiliate

Vital mx seems the most neutral as far as testing because they are consciously trying to be objective. They aren't picking to satisfy the forum fan base, being because of the overall vitard-ness we are.

Saying they are fanboys is nonsense. They've been accused of loving Yamahas, Hondas, KTMs, etc. They like a bike that works well and a bike that is good is usually good for 4+ years.

The thing that bugs me about the way they do things is them considering themselves the authority on all things moto while having a tabloid style/online presence. I believe if you want to be taken seriously, stop with the click bait and hyperbole headlines.

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Care Factor Zero

1/9/2018 11:48 AM

KTMCROSS ACTION

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1/9/2018 11:57 AM

Dang that used to be such a good magazine. They all suck now, just big ads that you have to pay to see. Makes no sence to me.

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1/9/2018 12:11 PM

aroark247 wrote:

True. But you are delusional if you can't see the MXA bias for KTM/HUSQVARNA.

If a person is a KTM fan, then go to MXA for all your mx/sx news.

Comparable to, if you're a Trump hater, then go watch CNN, or any NBC affiliate

Vital mx seems the most neutral as far as testing because they are consciously trying to be objective. They aren't picking to satisfy the forum fan base, being because of the overall vitard-ness we are.

I am not delusional and I have the paperwork to prove it. smile

I basically help do what MXA and loads of others like Vital do (reviews, shootouts), but in another industry. Our biggest advertiser constantly gets attacked because they are a big company that spends a shit ton on advertising. Recently, that company won one of our shootouts and the anonymous masses went freak'n berserk. The big company won our shootout strictly on merit, yet most of our readers went off on us saying "they paid for the win!!!!". That wasn't the case for us at all, the company in question didn't give us a penny for the shootout, nor did they even call/email asking for the win. They sent us their product, we put it in the shootout, and it simply outperformed its competition when using our test criteria.

That same scenario is certainly possible with MXA. While Jody certainly has his preferences, he has never struck me as the type of person that would award a shootout win in return for a check.

What I am saying is, just because a company spends more than anyone else on marketing, does not mean they are paying for shootout wins.

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www.bettercallsaul.com
Die Antwoord

1/9/2018 12:19 PM

ML512 wrote:

Shy of four months after ours was published...they shot the video around three months ago and we knew their results around that same time. Their video is the longest at 17 minutes but there's lots of dead space in terms of talking...then claiming any Shootout that didn't pick the KTM for the win is wrong... laughing

Kenny Lingus wrote:

It was a joke. 18 pages total, 3 full page pics only 1 with full page write up. The rest were half or less page write up. Seven pages dedicated to polishing their own knob, if you will. If it wasn't for the RMATVMC gift card (haven't received yet BTW) I would be embarrassed that I paid for a subscription. Seriously, not sure what affiliation they have with KTM but it is ridiculous.

ToolMaker wrote:

It wasn't just 10 years ago that "oh the KTM is still too euro, can't make it work right..."
Of all the majors KTM continues to push development. and are doing it every year.
Do you think the others would have advanced their tech had it not been for a little
market share company (KTM) dominating in the development. The whole market has
benefited from KTM. Who would have thunk, a company that spend a shit ton of
money to better their product might spend a shit ton of money on advertising? What a
novel idea? As far as where they spend it, my guess is MXA has an older demographic
which is more likely to buy the KTM. Hmm more bang for you buck?
TM

Not saying KTM isn't a good bike or doesn't deserve to win. It's the inconsistency in the way they judge things to suit whatever brand is their fancy for the time being is what I don't like. An example would be one year hp is king next it is useable power.

As far as KTM making the other companies raise the bar, that is true. But, you could also say they had to raise the bar themselves to make a bike capable of competing in the US market. You could also argue that by doing that they are driving up bike prices. Maybe the Japanese wanted to keep development to a minimum to try to keep cost down for long term sustainability. Just some thoughts.

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We are the sum of a 1,000 lives. What we know is almost nothing at all.

1/9/2018 12:23 PM
Edited Date/Time: 1/9/2018 1:15 PM

much ty

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1/9/2018 1:02 PM

Just watched it and it wasnt terrible. Look at it this way. Back in the day, this would have been a Godsend. Today we have many choices. Between all of the shootouts, we have a decent idea of the 450's. Everyone agrees the KTM, Husky and Honda are the best, and the Zuke is the worst.

Only a Pro would care.

Us mortals, pick:

estart? Yes or No
Favorite Color

Its even easier for me as I am uber brand loyal to Honda. It doesnt matter what anybody else does, I will always buy the Honda.

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2013 CRF450R Factory Connection revalve, All stock.

1/9/2018 1:37 PM

If you race primarily at Glen Helen their results are spot on.

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Bret Bonham

1/9/2018 1:39 PM

gt80rider wrote:

You seem to have a sticking point about ads in magazines. If they had no ads, you have no magazine. Just how it works regardless of genre.

The most coveted ad space in a mag is the back cover, then followed closely by the first two pages inside the front cover. While I have no first hand info, I would purely guess that those pages became available and the company willing to pay the most got them. An ad right before Jody's Box isn't there because they are cutting Jody a check for zillions of dollars every month, the ad has always, and will always, be there. Thankfully for KTM they are getting a premium spot for consumers to view their marketing, while the check KTM cuts each month thankfully helps to keep MXA open and more people employed in our sport.

To boil it down, just because you see ads in a mag does not mean their reviews/shootouts have been affected. In some companies, sure, but not in all. Remember the days back when Suzi pulled their MXA ads and wouldn't give them a bike for a shootout? I would trust MXA more than any other mx mag when it comes to truthful testing, but that is just my opinion.

aroark247 wrote:

True. But you are delusional if you can't see the MXA bias for KTM/HUSQVARNA.

If a person is a KTM fan, then go to MXA for all your mx/sx news.

Comparable to, if you're a Trump hater, then go watch CNN, or any NBC affiliate

Vital mx seems the most neutral as far as testing because they are consciously trying to be objective. They aren't picking to satisfy the forum fan base, being because of the overall vitard-ness we are.

gt80rider wrote:

I am not delusional and I have the paperwork to prove it. smile

I basically help do what MXA and loads of others like Vital do (reviews, shootouts), but in another industry. Our biggest advertiser constantly gets attacked because they are a big company that spends a shit ton on advertising. Recently, that company won one of our shootouts and the anonymous masses went freak'n berserk. The big company won our shootout strictly on merit, yet most of our readers went off on us saying "they paid for the win!!!!". That wasn't the case for us at all, the company in question didn't give us a penny for the shootout, nor did they even call/email asking for the win. They sent us their product, we put it in the shootout, and it simply outperformed its competition when using our test criteria.

That same scenario is certainly possible with MXA. While Jody certainly has his preferences, he has never struck me as the type of person that would award a shootout win in return for a check.

What I am saying is, just because a company spends more than anyone else on marketing, does not mean they are paying for shootout wins.

And by choosing a certain type of "test criteria", you can benefit a certain product that excels in certain areas but may lack in others which can be left out or be made less relevent. As pointed out by someone else, each year they seem to favor some different characteristic which in turn can benefit a certain product. It can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but it can make the difference between 1st and 3rd.

Just saying

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1/9/2018 1:40 PM
Edited Date/Time: 1/9/2018 1:41 PM

ML512 wrote:

Shy of four months after ours was published...they shot the video around three months ago and we knew their results around that same time. Their video is the longest at 17 minutes but there's lots of dead space in terms of talking...then claiming any Shootout that didn't pick the KTM for the win is wrong... laughing

Yeah it seems their view is always right ...turns me right off....every one who has a brain knows that all the bikes are VERY good and for 95% of the bike riding population they would do well on any of them. The Suzuki/Kawasaki/Honda/Yamaha 450 could be the best bikes ever and they would still not win the overall MXA shootout (its soooooo wrong to think 1 bike suits all riders)...sad but true.

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Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

1/9/2018 1:47 PM

MXA was lame, way to much blah blah blah.

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1/9/2018 1:53 PM

charley586 wrote:

KTM as always 2 fulls pages of adds just before Jody editorial... They lost me last year when they did a shootout in a shootout with the KTM vs the Honda... Why do that? They didn't do that with the Suzuki this year and it's a brand new bike like Honda last year. For me it was just an opportunity to promote (remember the add before Jody editorial) the KTM and bith on other bike.

So, are you saying that the KTM is not realistically the shootout winner? That it was paid for by KTM?

I'd really like to know why you think the KTM has no shot at being the best bike?

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1/9/2018 3:13 PM

peelout wrote:

much ty

Haha! Exactly.

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