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luke11 luke11
11/11/2020 1:23 PM

Just a thought, especially since EMTB’s mtb company’s like intense, canyon, specialised seem to be sponsoring/giving bikes to moto influencers/pros to have fun on and post about knowing full well we’re easy converts.

Do you think this could work the other way?

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skeef skeef
11/11/2020 1:43 PM

The pros ride MTB for fitness and ride EMTB for fun/fitness? Personally I think it's too much of a liability for a MTB pro to ride a dirt bike just to post about it on instagram. Although, I do think it would convert some guys in the MTB world. It's a good question.

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AngryBear AngryBear
11/11/2020 1:45 PM

i think its significantly easier to get MX'ers into MTB, than MTB'ers into MX, unfortunately

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RDX RDX
11/11/2020 2:00 PM

Have seen a couple or three of downhill guys convert to MX and they have a good style from the beginning.

From the marketing perspective the conflict can be (IMO) that a moto guy can use and enjoy MTB but is rarely going to leave moto for MTB, even not decrease his interest in moto a little bit, so it's a good market to expand. But the other way around I believe that if a MTB guy goes into moto then they tend to lose interest progressively in MTB because moto... well, moto is moto.



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berm surfer berm surfer
11/11/2020 4:05 PM

It does work the other way around for Moto GP..lots of those dude post themselves riding either motocross or flat track frequently. Photo Photo

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berm surfer berm surfer
11/11/2020 4:19 PM
Photo
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chump6784 chump6784
11/11/2020 5:40 PM
RDX wrote:

Have seen a couple or ...more

I've just gotten into MTB and I have to disagree with you. I'm actually losing interest in moto because MTB is so easy and cheap for me. I can throw my bike in the back of my ute, drive a short way, hit the trail for a couple of hours and head home, and it costs nothing. To do the same for moto is all day and costs around $100.

I will admit though, riding a MTB up hills sucks balls

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Spooner Spooner
11/11/2020 6:16 PM

I raced mountain bikes before moto.

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xrmark xrmark
11/11/2020 9:45 PM

I raced moto growing up. Then got into mountain bikes around 14, raced them till I was 21,downhill specifically. Raced all the way up to the pro ranks, local pro who got absolutely waxed at any race that wasn’t Fontana winter series lol but I will say, a dirt bike is a lot more fun. That thing on the right that twists sure beats pedaling any day of the week.

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Dropbear Dropbear
11/11/2020 10:26 PM

I don’t think motocross peeps are as easily conned by advertising as mtb riders. A pedal bike as expensive as their moto steed?

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roninho roninho
11/12/2020 2:54 AM
luke11 wrote:

Just a thought, especially ...more

My input: I think mx riders are a good target market for a bunch of other sports for conditioning/fitness reasons.

Many hobby riders are working on their conditioning/fitness and any rider that does races will for sure work on conditioning/fitness. And with MX not being a sport you can do any day basically all riders will look at other sports for conditioning/fitness. Like running, the gym or cycling. MTB has quite some overlap and is something you can often do when you want it makes it a logical fit for MX riders.

I am no expert on MTB, but i would think that if a mtb-er wants to work on his conditioning it would be easier and probably better to simply go another day on the MTB then look into MX for conditiong. Can't ride mx anytime you want, it takes more time, it is costly etc. So to me from that perspective MX isnt interesting for an MTB enthousiast.

Obviously you can also target MTB-ers not for using mx as conditioning but simpy because they might enjoy riding mx. It seems a better match then targeting a basketball player or someone who swims. But i'm not sure that targeting someone who rides mtb (but not mx) significantly increases the odds of selling a mx bike.

I would probably prefer targeting people who watch motogp, F1 or visit races over targeting people who ride mtb. A bunch of my non-moto friends always visit the Dutch Masters (every year there is a race in our region), and i've asked them if they are targeted by moto (related) companies or the KNMV and they never are.

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mpy mpy
11/12/2020 3:20 AM
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Motofinne Motofinne
11/12/2020 3:38 AM

You wont attract many MTBers without moto background to moto. But you can attract moto riders to MTB pretty easily.

Reasons being.
1. Way cheaper
2. Relatively safe, at least safer than moto/offroad.
3. Way less time consuming.
4. Easier to have fun without being ultra fit because of E-bikes
5. Way more places to actually do the sport compared to moto/offroad

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DoctorJD DoctorJD
11/12/2020 4:35 AM
RDX wrote:

Have seen a couple or ...more

chump6784 wrote:

I've just gotten into MTB ...more

Same here. I started mtb back in 98' and haven't looked back. Yea, I've ridden moto some during that time, but everything about mtb is more appealing to me now. For all of the reasons you listed, plus, the therapeutic benefits.

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Crush Crush
11/12/2020 4:52 AM

Quite a few of the DH guys have at least some sort of support/deal with bikes. Not national but they’re getting and thanking on Instagram, so it’s definitely not for nothing.

Cheers, Crush
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ayearinmx ayearinmx
11/12/2020 4:54 AM

Remember how well the motocross community/industry embraced Bernard Kerr, and how easy they made it for him to attempt to ride SX...

A Year In MX: One Man, One Year, One Sport
All 13 MX races on US soil
http://www.ayearinmx.com

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Jeff_Brines Jeff_Brines
11/12/2020 5:00 AM

Finally, something I can comment on with a little bit of expertise wink

I have raced mountain bikes forever, worked in the industry off and on and even was a product tester for Vital's mountain bike site. To this day I still have many friends who work within the industry on the marketing side, engineering side and a straggling few who continue to race professionally (even though we're in or mid-late 30s).

I picked up my first moto in 2018 and am completely hooked. Prior to this I had 3 seasons of riding mountain sleds which actually helped more than you would imagine.

I think there are a few big caveats to the transition, and I'd say I'm an outlier based on a few things. That said, I also believe every mountain biker, especially on the gravity side, has immense amounts of respect for moto and secretly wishes that's what he/she did

I don't think the marketing would be lost on mountain bikers for a few reasons, but it'd have to be specific to riding they can relate to. My thoughts...

1) Transitioning to the moto track is going to take some real risk management. Jumping a moto is easier than a mountain bike, but its often far higher consequence. The moves you make in the air on a moto are very different. This is one area the translation between the two sports is not nearly as big as I would have thought.

2) Transitioning to trail riding/off road riding is far more reasonable. The problem here is access. I live in a state with tons of trails, so this is a no brainer. If this was common, I could see a number of mountain bikers moving over and never looking back.

3) Money. Its more expensive to keep a dirt bike running. Though I'd argue if you are balls deep into mountain biking, its really not that bad.

4) Wrenching. Its a different level of mechanical aptitude. One of the big problems I see in the sport is the lack of good wrenches if you aren't comfortable doing it yourself. I kid you not I've laid the groundwork to a technology based solution around this as I see it as a crux to growth (connecting garage mechanics and people that need work...dumb idea)

5) Time. This is the biggest one. This is the biggest reason I still log a ton of days on my mountain bike. I can go get a good ride in an hour (or sometimes less) on my mountain bike. Dirt biking is a bigger ordeal that requires more time. If you have kids, a family, a demanding career and stuff outside 2 wheels this is going to be the biggest reason people don't transition.

6) Most people hit a point in their life where they don't want to suck at something. You will suck at riding moto the first 10-15 rides (I mean, I'll always suck, but I mean you'll be like "wait, how do I use this rear brake?")

7) Crew. You need a good group of people to figure the sport out. I think this lack of connection is what holds most people back from trying it out.

8) Environment. Mountain bikers *can* be a pretentious bunch. Not always, but they can be. I remember racing the NAEC SIlver Mountain enduro (mtb) last year, then doing the Silver Mountain Hard Enduro (moto) the weekend after. The two groups of people could not have been different (for two wheeled enthusiasts). A subset of the mountain bikers were scoffing at the prospect of a moto riding what they were riding, and a few noting how bad it is for the environment. (don't worry, plenty of other people were like "woah that's rad"). There is a "redneck" perception that is somehow beneath some of the (more prickish) mountain bikers. You'd have to show the sport in a light that is cleanish. Or at least less Metal Mulisha, more Johnny Walker.

9) Transport. Tray racks work well, but a Subaru is still going to look pretty pretty funny dragging ass with that 300 on the back wink

Regardless, I think its friggin awesome, and I'm a better mountain bike rider now than I ever was (at 35). The problem is I don't get quiet the same "oh yeah I can't wait to do this" around my mountain bike as I do dirt bike wink --- First world problem.

I've seen almost every one of my friends on the DH side transition, or at least add a moto at some point. Most have stuck with it, a handful give it up quickly. XC, Trail, everyday? Naw. The normal enthusiasts aren't about to sell their Subarus and figure out this sport. They are frankly overwhelmed by the complexity of mountain biking. Adding a motor would overwhelm in almost everyway.


EDIT: One area I've seen more growth than I ever would have thought - women riders. A number of women, at least around here, have moved over and left their mountain bike collecting dust. I've thought a lot about this, and in a trail situation I think there is an argument to be made a moto can feel safer. You can easily put your feet down (if its low enough) and keep going, you have a lot more traction and its a lot more forgiving when it comes to smashing into shit. This is something I find interesting, and something the market is totally missing to address (be it via influencers or via bikes - there is really only one bike aimed at this group)

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concave ruts concave ruts
11/12/2020 5:34 AM

Tons of pro mtb riders are doing moto for cross training/ fun (Reece Wilson- 2021 world champ, Bernard Kerr, Fabio Wibmer, The masters bros, the list goes on and on). As someone who has transitioned more into the mtb world I will say that moto was just too much work. I’m the type that likes to ride several times a week - I can just jump on my bike and do that after work. With motocross I figured I was spending close to as much time working on and cleaning my bike as I was riding.

I will say there’s nothing quite like the feeling of 4th gear pinned leaning way off the back of the bike up the face of a 75’ step up. You aren’t getting that in mtb which in some ways makes it feel safer day to day.

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AE448 AE448
11/12/2020 6:30 AM

I rode motocross for 9 years before selling up and getting into MTB 3 years ago. At first I loved the MTB riding almost as much as MX...it was fresh, something new. It didn't take all day, or cost a bomb, I didn't need a van to transport my bike, or to pay to ride the bike. However now after 3.5 years off the MX bike there's only 1 thing I think of most days and it isn't the MTB! I always enjoy riding, I love it when I'm doing it, but for me it doesn't have the same "fuck yeah!" factor that MX has.

Regarding the original post...I personally know of many now MTBers that all come from an MX background...and most of them talk about MX when we are out riding!

As others have said:

(1) it is much easier to go for a MTB ride - it's cheap, time-friendly and accessible (for most)
(2) MX takes all day - even going practicing. Buying fuel, preparing the bike during the week, loading the van up, travelling, riding, waiting, riding, waiting, riding, washing the bike off, kit when you get home and do it all again for the next time. Most MTBers are not used to this, so it seems a lot of effort. However, once you get hooked, you're hooked! For me, all that effort is more than worth it to ride for an hour at the weekend!
(3) Who you know - MTBers likely know each other and have mates that do it whereas they probably don't know anyone at a race day in the MX world. I started with MX so for me when I go back to watch MX it's like coming home. Familiar faces everywhere and it's brilliant. I did a MTB race once and felt like an alien. I was alone, didn't know anyone and it sucked.

So for the most part I would say that no the marketing wouldn't work. A few people will of course come over, but you will get many more MX riders buying eBikes than the other way round!

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Falcon Falcon
11/12/2020 9:10 AM
RDX wrote:

Have seen a couple or ...more

chump6784 wrote:

I've just gotten into MTB ...more

This, except every time I ride my MX bike I remember why I love it.
From week to week, it's cheaper and easier to get your "fix" by hopping on the MTB. Every few weekends though, I like to go bust out the 250 at a track.

Braaapin' aint easy.

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YZ-MTB YZ-MTB
11/12/2020 10:34 AM

As someone who has raced and ridden mountain bikes for over 30 years (and BMX before that) I think the percentage of mountain bikers willing to transition to moto is pretty small.

I know tons of guys that have transitioned from moto to MTB, but I only know 2 other guys that have gone the other way. Make that 3 if I count myself, but I started off in moto before I ever swung a leg over a mtb, and came back to moto after many many years.

I've also spent a lot of time on mtb forums over the last 20 years and I've seen a lot of mountain bikers express hate for all things moto. Usually the same guys spewing hate for Ebikes. In fairness, I've seen quite a bit of mtb hate spewed by vitards on these forums.

The gravity oriented segments of mtb (DH, freeride/park) are where you will find a lot more cross over between MTB and Moto. DH is a very small niche within the mtb community. At least in my state, the mtb community is huge, but DH racing is nearly non existent.

I would say with the increase in popularity of the enduro mtb discipline and ebikes in the last 5+ years or so, I think there may be more mtbers that would transition over to moto. I think ebikes will be the biggest bridge between mtb and moto worlds, and a competitive and reasonably priced electic moto would increase that even more.

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Finnish_Flash_62 Finnish_Flash_62
11/12/2020 11:56 AM
chump6784 wrote:

I've just gotten into MTB ...more

I’m 100% with you here. As for going up the hills, that’s where the E comes in in MTB.

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RideMoonshine RideMoonshine
11/13/2020 11:41 AM

I think that the crossover brands (TLD, Fox, Fly, Renthal, Maxxis, etc.) can definitely work both angles more than they do. I also think Moto can learn a lot from how MTB markets to its actual core riders through lifestyle videos, adventure epics, and just general fun and good times type of content (Moto XXX and Crusty were basically just copying the ski film formula but with dirt bikes and look how much we still talk about those). Instead Moto just continues to push the same poster shots and test track footage from SX out and calling it a day.

On a similar note, it's pretty interesting reading the snobbery in the MTB world and then opening an article in Freehub or watching a film about MTB's beginning, realizing some of those dudes were basically Crusty Demons without engines. I got into mountain biking because there were trails I could hit after work and became pretty obsessed with it, still very much am. But like Jeff said above, "The normal enthusiasts aren't about to sell their Subarus and figure out this sport. They are frankly overwhelmed by the complexity of mountain biking. Adding a motor would overwhelm in almost everyway." It's a pretty strange dichotomy.

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dirtcyclewill dirtcyclewill
11/13/2020 5:11 PM
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jbrown15 jbrown15
11/14/2020 12:36 AM

Sadly a few years back Canadian DH Pro Stevie Smith lost his life from a moto accident.
#longlivechainsaw

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Jeff_Brines Jeff_Brines
11/14/2020 6:18 AM
RideMoonshine wrote:

I think that the crossover ...more

Not to be all Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance (my favorite book) what you are honing in on never ceases to amaze me. Most people (even my dad) sees a bike as a bike. Its this big scary technological "thing" not a system of systems, each with a purpose.

This fear of being being leveraged to something mechanical for your fun-having, especially when it takes you back into the middle of nowhere, is very obvious for most people. Its why they bring their mtn bike in for a "tune up" (whatever that is!) even if the bike is working perfectly fine.

Adding layers of complexity to this scares the bejesus out of people. Throw on top of that a lack of good mechanical education (apparently most people can't youtube shit) and lack of good mechanics in most areas and this is what is going to keep a lot of would-be moto riders moving over. Its not that they don't have the skill, or wouldn't absolutely love it, its that they don't have the wiring to *want* to struggle to understand something; its that the technology of "oh God another engine thing" terrifies them.

This comes down to the difference in demographics, with the mountain bike set often more white collar, more like John, and dirt bike set often more blue collar, more like Robert. I'll let you decide which group has more fun wink (and spends more time on their bike, not waiting for some hack mechanic to fix _____)

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xrmark xrmark
11/14/2020 6:24 AM
jbrown15 wrote:

Sadly a few years back ...more

One of my hero’s. Was such a sad day. RIP

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Gravel Gravel
11/14/2020 6:34 AM

I’ve gone back and forth between moto and MTB (and BMX before that) all of my life. Usually about a 4 year cycle. MTB is way cheaper, way more social and much more convenient. Moto is a way better ride. The two compliment each other perfectly, similar skill set and fitness crosses over really well.

Good luck growing the MTBer crossover market though. The snooty douche MTB factor is real, I think most of the converts have already embraced both.

As for E-mtb, just don’t. In 20 years, do you really want a bunch of pictures of you, acting all cool, while riding mopeds? Make a commitment, either pedal or moto, it can’t be both. IMO..

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Spooner Spooner
11/14/2020 6:41 AM
Gravel wrote:

I’ve gone back and forth ...more

I’m guessing you’ve never ridden a good E-bike before?

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Gravel Gravel
11/14/2020 7:06 AM
Gravel wrote:

I’ve gone back and forth ...more

Spooner wrote:

I’m guessing you’ve never ...more

I have. It was fun for a minute, but just not fun enough. Felt like a fad machine to me, the MTB industry is gonna make a lot of money selling them, and then we’re gonna lose a lot of trail access because now we can piss off hiker families by hauling ass on the climbs too. It’ll take a few years, but watch what happens to traditional MTB trails near cities..

It’s like choosing a gender, there’s only two, lol! Either it’s a MTB or it’s a moto, it can’t be both! An E mtb is just a slow motorcycle..

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