Looks like the Chinese are getting serious!!!

kpiper
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5/20/2019 8:29am
Bearuno wrote:
Ernst Degner ripped off Walter Kaadens / MZs tech - though he was an accomplished engineer himself (but Nothing compared to Kadden) as well as a...
Ernst Degner ripped off Walter Kaadens / MZs tech - though he was an accomplished engineer himself (but Nothing compared to Kadden) as well as a great rider. Yep, I've got Mat Oxleys book, too. It's a great read, and, available directly from the author for those who are interested.

It's much like the US ( and Russia) snaffled up a whole bunch of German Engineers and Scientists after WW2, to get a jump on things like the Space Race. Werhner von Braune, anyone? I for one am glad that Kaaden was 'missed' by the US (and Ruski) scientist / engineer snaffle, as 2ts may have never come to the fore if Kaaden had been swallowed up by their respective Space and Military groups.

Yes Suzuki got a jump on 2ts, through Degners defection and His stealing of designs, but they rapidly went from simple 2ts, to the mind boggling 4 cylinder 125 and 250cc 2t GP racers, within a few years, and, ever further from that.

With regards to other posts: the Big price difference between the 2t and 4t GPx's? : it might be down to them paying royalties / outright purchase of the Yamaha engine design, as against a pumped out by the squillion 4ts, and, the realization they can just get far more profit from the 2t, given the perceived demand for them, and, the large(ly) desertion of the 2t ICE dirt bike by Japan. Both, I'd say.

I've gone to China over many decades now. Just the changes in Shanghai I've seen are mind boggling, over those decades. From the 80s, to now, it's incredible. Up against what is a 'Command Economy', by any other name, with a 'for life' leader, and no vote for the populace, I don't know how we in the West can hope to compete. They don't give a damn about IP / design ownership, and no one can ever seem to stop them from such theft.

As for the post about ending up being at War with them - well, just like with the Russians , the World would not survive such a thing, no matter how powerful one's own Military is. It's all lose lose, boys and girls.
"Up against what is a 'Command Economy', by any other name, with a 'for life' leader, and no vote for the populace, I don't know how we in the West can hope to compete. They don't give a damn about IP / design ownership, and no one can ever seem to stop them from such theft.

As for the post about ending up being at War with them - well, just like with the Russians , the World would not survive such a thing, no matter how powerful one's own Military is. It's all lose lose, boys and girls."


Exactly correct! We can't compete with their labor and stealing. They have stated they want to rival or surpass us economically and militarily by 2050. So what can we do? Simple! Don't buy their stuff. Why should we fund their military expansion.

You will end up spending more on repairs in a couple of years than you save on the purchase price of these bikes most likely anyway.

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KennyT
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5/20/2019 8:33am
Reading this thread makes me realize why the tariffs were needed. Pretty disgusting
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TriRacer27
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5/20/2019 8:39am
G-man wrote:
Here is the info https://gpxmoto.com/ How in the hell is the four stroke cheaper than the two stroke! Anyways these guys seem to love them so...
Here is the info

https://gpxmoto.com/

How in the hell is the four stroke cheaper than the two stroke!

Anyways these guys seem to love them so far.






I wonder how long before we see our first Chinese Factory sponsored racer!! Grinning
2
ATKpilot99
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Lake Geneva, WI US
5/20/2019 8:41am
G-man wrote:
Here is the info https://gpxmoto.com/ How in the hell is the four stroke cheaper than the two stroke! Anyways these guys seem to love them so...
Here is the info

https://gpxmoto.com/

How in the hell is the four stroke cheaper than the two stroke!

Anyways these guys seem to love them so far.






I wonder how long before we see our first Chinese Factory sponsored racer!! Grinning
TriRacer27 wrote:
[img]https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7002/6723704617_4af2220702_o.jpg[/img]
That was awesome. Laughed to point of tears reading that.
1

The Shop

ATKpilot99
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Lake Geneva, WI US
5/20/2019 8:43am
Bearuno wrote:
Ernst Degner ripped off Walter Kaadens / MZs tech - though he was an accomplished engineer himself (but Nothing compared to Kadden) as well as a...
Ernst Degner ripped off Walter Kaadens / MZs tech - though he was an accomplished engineer himself (but Nothing compared to Kadden) as well as a great rider. Yep, I've got Mat Oxleys book, too. It's a great read, and, available directly from the author for those who are interested.

It's much like the US ( and Russia) snaffled up a whole bunch of German Engineers and Scientists after WW2, to get a jump on things like the Space Race. Werhner von Braune, anyone? I for one am glad that Kaaden was 'missed' by the US (and Ruski) scientist / engineer snaffle, as 2ts may have never come to the fore if Kaaden had been swallowed up by their respective Space and Military groups.

Yes Suzuki got a jump on 2ts, through Degners defection and His stealing of designs, but they rapidly went from simple 2ts, to the mind boggling 4 cylinder 125 and 250cc 2t GP racers, within a few years, and, ever further from that.

With regards to other posts: the Big price difference between the 2t and 4t GPx's? : it might be down to them paying royalties / outright purchase of the Yamaha engine design, as against a pumped out by the squillion 4ts, and, the realization they can just get far more profit from the 2t, given the perceived demand for them, and, the large(ly) desertion of the 2t ICE dirt bike by Japan. Both, I'd say.

I've gone to China over many decades now. Just the changes in Shanghai I've seen are mind boggling, over those decades. From the 80s, to now, it's incredible. Up against what is a 'Command Economy', by any other name, with a 'for life' leader, and no vote for the populace, I don't know how we in the West can hope to compete. They don't give a damn about IP / design ownership, and no one can ever seem to stop them from such theft.

As for the post about ending up being at War with them - well, just like with the Russians , the World would not survive such a thing, no matter how powerful one's own Military is. It's all lose lose, boys and girls.
kpiper wrote:
[i]"Up against what is a 'Command Economy', by any other name, with a 'for life' leader, and no vote for the populace, I don't know how...
"Up against what is a 'Command Economy', by any other name, with a 'for life' leader, and no vote for the populace, I don't know how we in the West can hope to compete. They don't give a damn about IP / design ownership, and no one can ever seem to stop them from such theft.

As for the post about ending up being at War with them - well, just like with the Russians , the World would not survive such a thing, no matter how powerful one's own Military is. It's all lose lose, boys and girls."


Exactly correct! We can't compete with their labor and stealing. They have stated they want to rival or surpass us economically and militarily by 2050. So what can we do? Simple! Don't buy their stuff. Why should we fund their military expansion.

You will end up spending more on repairs in a couple of years than you save on the purchase price of these bikes most likely anyway.

It's not that simple. We are so intertwined that we are buying things we don't even know were made in China.
1
kpiper
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5/20/2019 9:05am
ATKpilot99 wrote:
It's not that simple. We are so intertwined that we are buying things we don't even know were made in China.
Sometimes it is that simple as made in China is marked on the item. The government requires products to be marked as to where they were made. Sometimes not as simple as you say but we can still try. No lack of clarity on where these motorcycles are made though.
1
ATKpilot99
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5/20/2019 9:14am
ATKpilot99 wrote:
It's not that simple. We are so intertwined that we are buying things we don't even know were made in China.
kpiper wrote:
Sometimes it is that simple as made in China is marked on the item. The government requires products to be marked as to where they were...
Sometimes it is that simple as made in China is marked on the item. The government requires products to be marked as to where they were made. Sometimes not as simple as you say but we can still try. No lack of clarity on where these motorcycles are made though.
True . And items are marked. But for the products we rely on daily . Electronics for instance. What options do we have ? Dirt Bikes are a fraction of the pie.
1
piscokid
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5/20/2019 9:49am
motogrady wrote:
He guys. Here's one that defies the current logic. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/05/19/348664/s1200_image.jpg[/img] Guy has been working with me for a few months. He's a millennial. Best worker I've...
He guys. Here's one that defies the current logic.



Guy has been working with me for a few months.
He's a millennial. Best worker I've seen in awhile.
Doing the divorcejammed up thing.
Saving to buy a house. Pieced this Honda passport from $250 in scraps. Has had offers up to 1500 for it. Not interested in a car even, just wants to get ahead. Asked him how much grief that white open faced helmet gets him. Said idgaf. Smile
I have a buddy into those things. He is making a KILLING buying and fixing them and then selling...
1
lostboy819
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5/20/2019 10:07am
KennyT wrote:
I really find that amazing. I’ve gone through so many laptops it’s not funny. Finally went to a Mac and it seems to be lasting much...
I really find that amazing. I’ve gone through so many laptops it’s not funny. Finally went to a Mac and it seems to be lasting much better...I’m sure it’s a China product too. Glad to hear you got 10 years out of ANY electronic. That is hard to do

And sorry about all the China product bashing but I am getting so tired of buying crap that doesn’t last. And most of it has the “made in China” label
Whats crazy is for some reason I am the chosen one for electronics and cell phones etc. Believe it or not I have never had a lap top or cell phone or TV or tablet etc etc ever fail. I had my Galaxy note 3 for 6 years and its still in perfect condition and I only upgraded to a Galaxy note 9 because I was getting them all for my wife and kids, same with laptops and TVs. I know I must be the exception and not the rule for electronics because everything I have ever bought they all still work.....................I am going to knock on wood now and I hope I didn't jinx myself. Now my luck with garage door openers is another story. Pinch
lostboy819
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5/20/2019 10:10am
KennyT wrote:
Reading this thread makes me realize why the tariffs were needed. Pretty disgusting
I do agree 100% with the tariffs. If it truly was free trade it would be different but everyone sticks it to the USA on trade.
1
KennyT
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5/20/2019 10:52am
KennyT wrote:
I really find that amazing. I’ve gone through so many laptops it’s not funny. Finally went to a Mac and it seems to be lasting much...
I really find that amazing. I’ve gone through so many laptops it’s not funny. Finally went to a Mac and it seems to be lasting much better...I’m sure it’s a China product too. Glad to hear you got 10 years out of ANY electronic. That is hard to do

And sorry about all the China product bashing but I am getting so tired of buying crap that doesn’t last. And most of it has the “made in China” label
lostboy819 wrote:
Whats crazy is for some reason I am the chosen one for electronics and cell phones etc. Believe it or not I have never had a...
Whats crazy is for some reason I am the chosen one for electronics and cell phones etc. Believe it or not I have never had a lap top or cell phone or TV or tablet etc etc ever fail. I had my Galaxy note 3 for 6 years and its still in perfect condition and I only upgraded to a Galaxy note 9 because I was getting them all for my wife and kids, same with laptops and TVs. I know I must be the exception and not the rule for electronics because everything I have ever bought they all still work.....................I am going to knock on wood now and I hope I didn't jinx myself. Now my luck with garage door openers is another story. Pinch
Consider yourself lucky. In the construction trade it is amazing how hard t is to buy tools or appliances that don’t have ties to China. And they fail constantly. My iPhones last 12-24 months before it’s time for a new one. My TV’s never fail because I usually opt for a new one every couple of years. You better edit your post about failure or you are gonna be screwed ?
1
Lightning78
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5/20/2019 11:51am
7eleven wrote:
What a shitbox! Why would a company release a bike with an air filter cage that doesn't seat right. Nice QC GPX.
Ummmm 2002 - 2004 CR125 AND CR250???
1
1
APLMAN99
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5/20/2019 12:07pm
mikec265 wrote:
$830 shipped for a 125 pitbike that I'm pretty happy and impressed with. The weakest points are the engine and my fat ass. If it shits...
$830 shipped for a 125 pitbike that I'm pretty happy and impressed with. The weakest points are the engine and my fat ass. If it shits the bed after one season it's not enough $ to really care.

I can't see much over $3000 for a new chinknese full sized bike when you can score a low hour RMZ for the same price.
Just out of curiosity, why the need for the racial slurs?
8
1
motogrady
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5/20/2019 12:10pm
KennyT wrote:
Reading this thread makes me realize why the tariffs were needed. Pretty disgusting
lostboy819 wrote:
I do agree 100% with the tariffs. If it truly was free trade it would be different but everyone sticks it to the USA on trade.

Well, even if we go tit for tat, they still have a tremendous advantage.

No unions.
Nothing as far as safety requirements for workers compared to us.
Peanut wages.
Almost free electricity if you do business anywhere near that big ass yellow river dam.
Nothing as far as EPA regs.
They have already went out and bought most of the mass producing equipment, and have people working them.
When's the last time anyone heard of America making a loom or steel mill?
Patents, licenses, the USA is strangled with them. China, wgaf.

Sure, Social Security and all that stuff is a very good thing. But, how can we expect to even break even dealing with those over there?


2
4
motogrady
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5/20/2019 12:12pm
KennyT wrote:
Reading this thread makes me realize why the tariffs were needed. Pretty disgusting
lostboy819 wrote:
I do agree 100% with the tariffs. If it truly was free trade it would be different but everyone sticks it to the USA on trade.
motogrady wrote:
Well, even if we go tit for tat, they still have a tremendous advantage. No unions. Nothing as far as safety requirements for workers compared to...

Well, even if we go tit for tat, they still have a tremendous advantage.

No unions.
Nothing as far as safety requirements for workers compared to us.
Peanut wages.
Almost free electricity if you do business anywhere near that big ass yellow river dam.
Nothing as far as EPA regs.
They have already went out and bought most of the mass producing equipment, and have people working them.
When's the last time anyone heard of America making a loom or steel mill?
Patents, licenses, the USA is strangled with them. China, wgaf.

Sure, Social Security and all that stuff is a very good thing. But, how can we expect to even break even dealing with those over there?



Oh, I forgot. The insurance companies don't have their hand in almost everything the do either.
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Lightning78
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5/20/2019 1:27pm
All this Chinese Gloom and Doom talk reminds me of this song by a band I discovered by accident letting youtube auto play too long..... I friggin love this band, too bad I believe they're done but some damn good music, anyway this song echo's some of your comments. Its great to listen to if you have a system in your car too....

The Lillingtons

The Augur's Tale

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouzXwfCTM6s
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77Moto
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5/20/2019 3:01pm
Where do people buy these bikes? I've never seen them anywhere.

2
ti473
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5/20/2019 3:12pm
First of all I don't think that just because it has the "Made in China" label it is necessarily junk. Lots of stuff is made in China nowadays, the difference is in the QC, the design, engineering and the details sometimes.

As far as dirtbikes go though, I would stay the hell away from them. This is something your life can rely on after all.

The problem with reverse engineering is that I feel that they copy something without having a fucking clue of the why and how. Sometimes there are minute details that if missed can have catastrophic consequences.

Here's an example from personal experience:
I bought one of those bearing aluminum throttle tubes that was clearly a copycat of the pro taper ones. Where you insert cable end to the throttle cam, the omitted one simple milling operation that would have taken the lathe and extra 5 seconds. Basically the cable was sitting against a sharp edge and over time it got cut. Luckily it cut after landing a big jump instead of on the face of it. Now you tell me if endoing over a 90ft jump is worth saving that 20 bucks.
Sure, mechanical failure happen on NASA flight sometimes, but this was something that was completely and very easily preventable by the engineer having understanding of how the part works instead of blindly copying something and going "eh, looks close enough"

My 2 cents...
1
KennyT
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5/20/2019 3:49pm
77Moto wrote:
Where do people buy these bikes? I've never seen them anywhere.

The dollar store
1
ATKpilot99
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5/20/2019 5:02pm
77Moto wrote:
Where do people buy these bikes? I've never seen them anywhere.

You can get SSR 250, 450 and pit bikes through Maxx Motorsprts a dealer not far from where I live. Also a dealer near Madison WI . that sells them.
kb228
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5/20/2019 5:18pm
KennyT wrote:
If the Chinese paid me to own it I wouldn’t take it. I’ve never seen anything of any quality come out of that 3rd world shithole
kage173 wrote:
iPhones and every laptop are made in China. So are Nike shoes
But theyre made to the specifications nike and apple want. These bikes are just clones of other stuff. Theres a difference.
Dropbear
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5/20/2019 5:22pm
Taiwan is ROC and a lot, if not most high end MTB’s are out of there. No one seems to mind that.
colintrax
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5/20/2019 5:25pm
Dropbear wrote:
Taiwan is ROC and a lot, if not most high end MTB’s are out of there. No one seems to mind that.
Taiwan is independent and makes good quality stuff. My Taiwanese tools are awesome. Also buying from Taiwan is kinda like giving China the middle finger and I'm all for that.
2
diz330
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5/20/2019 5:52pm
China has a bad reputation for making bad quality cheap products. They make EXACTLY what we ask for. Cheap and disposable. They're fully capable of making quality products but North Americans are all about saving money. they could compete with German or Japanese or American quality if someone was willing to pay for it.
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outerlimits
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San Diego, CA US
5/20/2019 6:07pm
crowe176 wrote:
The review of the air filter cage is enough for me.. I actually enjoyed the review haha. And the comments in the video are great.
The review of the air filter cage is enough for me.. I actually enjoyed the review haha. And the comments in the video are great.
And yet when KTM has shitty QC on their reed cages everyone turns a blind eye because it came out of Europe?




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outerlimits
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5/20/2019 6:09pm
diz330 wrote:
China has a bad reputation for making bad quality cheap products. They make EXACTLY what we ask for. Cheap and disposable. They're fully capable of making...
China has a bad reputation for making bad quality cheap products. They make EXACTLY what we ask for. Cheap and disposable. They're fully capable of making quality products but North Americans are all about saving money. they could compete with German or Japanese or American quality if someone was willing to pay for it.
They have equipment rolling around on the moon right now. The U.S. says we don't have the technology to get there anymore. Go figure.
1
kpiper
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5/20/2019 6:10pm
Dropbear wrote:
Taiwan is ROC and a lot, if not most high end MTB’s are out of there. No one seems to mind that.
colintrax wrote:
Taiwan is independent and makes good quality stuff. My Taiwanese tools are awesome. Also buying from Taiwan is kinda like giving China the middle finger and...
Taiwan is independent and makes good quality stuff. My Taiwanese tools are awesome. Also buying from Taiwan is kinda like giving China the middle finger and I'm all for that.
True. We are an ally of Taiwan and have an agreement to defend them. They will never attack us. Can't say the same for China. I guarantee there are other places to buy anything we get from China. India, Thailand, and even Vietnam (imagine that) to name a few.
JWRM
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Nuevo, CA US
5/20/2019 6:32pm
Dropbear wrote:
Taiwan is ROC and a lot, if not most high end MTB’s are out of there. No one seems to mind that.
colintrax wrote:
Taiwan is independent and makes good quality stuff. My Taiwanese tools are awesome. Also buying from Taiwan is kinda like giving China the middle finger and...
Taiwan is independent and makes good quality stuff. My Taiwanese tools are awesome. Also buying from Taiwan is kinda like giving China the middle finger and I'm all for that.
I've owned a few guitars and basses made in Taiwan and a few made in China and the Taiwan guitars were obviously superior.
SLAPAHO
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5/20/2019 7:19pm
Laughing

James E 05/24/2018
The features on the FSE and TSE far and away beat the Japanese offerings in the play/trail category! Id put it up against anything from the Big 4 off road under 450cc and against the Euro 250 EXC/TE or XC/W style bikes. Against a XC/F it would get spanked in anything open and on weight.
1

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