List of helmets with improved concussion preventing technology.

cwtoyota
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7/26/2019 12:39pm Edited Date/Time 7/26/2019 12:51pm
The more cushion there is, the more force will be mitigated before getting to your brain. Maybe the Arai does this well enough to not need...
The more cushion there is, the more force will be mitigated before getting to your brain.

Maybe the Arai does this well enough to not need gel? Maybe not? All I know is that I don't want a bike with LESS suspension travel. All this helmet technology is just suspension for your brain. They keep adding stuff to help slow down the energy before it "bottoms out" on your skull.
That's the same philosophy that has me looking. I've bottomed out more than once... Maybe I need a revalve, or something.
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Lynch
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7/26/2019 12:48pm
ML512 wrote:
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer...
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer for testing with all coming back with a clean bill of health because there was zero EPS compression.
I'm thinking Arai
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1
7/26/2019 12:51pm
The more cushion there is, the more force will be mitigated before getting to your brain. Maybe the Arai does this well enough to not need...
The more cushion there is, the more force will be mitigated before getting to your brain.

Maybe the Arai does this well enough to not need gel? Maybe not? All I know is that I don't want a bike with LESS suspension travel. All this helmet technology is just suspension for your brain. They keep adding stuff to help slow down the energy before it "bottoms out" on your skull.
cwtoyota wrote:
That's the same philosophy that has me looking. I've bottomed out more than once... Maybe I need a revalve, or something.
"Gold Valves for your brain"

We'll never be able to prevent getting knocked out, right? Some helmets may just lessen the injuries or possibility of fatality when encountering certain situations. I bet each helmet tech has its slight strengths in certain areas but none of us really get to choose how we hit our head to get the best possible outcome.

I'll let this helmet tech evolve over the next few years (or until a concussion) and re-evaluate once each manufacturer picks a method to keep refining. I run a Shoei. The VXF-W, not EVO. Price was a main point for me. It was an upgrade from my 2 previous helmets and I got a good deal on it since it's discontinued.
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Spooner
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7/26/2019 1:40pm
ML512 wrote:
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer...
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer for testing with all coming back with a clean bill of health because there was zero EPS compression.
That’s scary as hell!

The Shop

Spooner
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7/26/2019 1:44pm
The FIM is going to start testing all the helmets and they have to pass their test to be allowed to race in them. They started it with moto Gp this year and mxgp is next year. From what I’ve heard it has a test for dissipating rotational energy. I also heard Alpinestars has already been tested and scored extremely well. Full disclosure I do work for a distributor that sells them but this came from their former technical director.
snackfedbear
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7/26/2019 1:46pm
ML512 wrote:
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer...
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer for testing with all coming back with a clean bill of health because there was zero EPS compression.
If we guess right do we get to know?
Jt$
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7/26/2019 2:23pm
Casting wrote:
Do your own research and look into the labs who tested the helmets and designed the technology. There is a lot of marketing out there designed...
Do your own research and look into the labs who tested the helmets and designed the technology. There is a lot of marketing out there designed as science.

The best example, or worst, is Fly's most recent helmet. They claimed in the press release and on podcasts that the product was independently tested.

That is not the case as by definition their testing is not independent: RHEON Labs was one of the "independent" labs which tested the effectiveness of the helmet, yet RHEON was also the lab that designed the gel-like substance that goes in the helmet to supposedly mitigate concussive-blow severity.

Having a lab which has a financial stake in the helmet, and which designed components of the helmet, complete the "independent" testing, is laughable and meets the definition of conflict of interest.


I have nothing against Fly. I recently bought 2 jerseys for mountain biking which have worked out well for me. However, when a company tries to take advantage of or mislead their customers (don't mention the info-graphic they published with incorrect data), I will always speak up and point out the falsehoods.


Never take advertising at face values and do your own research.

Don't take my word for it: see their website: https://rheonlabs.com/rheon-x-fly-racing-launch-formula/

The inventor of RHEON Dr. Plant is quoted as saying "I am a motocross rider as well as being a testing and impact specialist, and I choose to wear the FLY FORMULA helmet with RHEON technology, simply because it’s safer"

Independent labs don't market or endorse the products they "test".
Sorry, this is horrifically inaccurate. YES, Rheon labs did testing as would any helmet tech company. That is an obvious step of the process to know how the helmet performed.

The independent tests were done by SATRA labs and that’s well documented. We have no affiliation with that laboratory. You skipped over this fact entirely, even though it’s stated repeatedly in all literature, our catalog and on the website.

Please feel free to email me directly at Jthomas@flyracing.com and I can provide you my cell phone # if you’d like to discuss. Anything is better than this inaccuracy.
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yeroc281
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7/26/2019 2:26pm
yeroc281 wrote:
Popcorn popped waiting for the 10 pager. Woohoo
cwtoyota wrote:
You guys always want controversy. I didn't ask which one is best and don't really make my decisions based on the advise of some people on...
You guys always want controversy. I didn't ask which one is best and don't really make my decisions based on the advise of some people on the internet. All I'm taking out of this thread is a list of helmets and technologies, from there I'll do my own research. The best helmet for me may not be the best one the Forum Committee Vitale selects.

Add something useful, or go find a premix ratio thread.
That's the way this board is. It's really too bad. I would like informative information. But it seems there's a lot of misinformation out there. You know how opinions are. Just like the guy who posted "how to clean his white seat", it's going on and on
with "smart" comments "get another's seat" blah blah blah it's mind numbing.
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1
7/26/2019 3:01pm
yeroc281 wrote:
That's the way this board is. It's really too bad. I would like informative information. But it seems there's a lot of misinformation out there. You...
That's the way this board is. It's really too bad. I would like informative information. But it seems there's a lot of misinformation out there. You know how opinions are. Just like the guy who posted "how to clean his white seat", it's going on and on
with "smart" comments "get another's seat" blah blah blah it's mind numbing.
Some people throw away garbage. Some people are garbage. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.
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Matt Fisher
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7/26/2019 3:25pm
ML512 wrote:
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer...
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer for testing with all coming back with a clean bill of health because there was zero EPS compression.
Lynch wrote:
I'm thinking Arai
Pretty sure that's the one.
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GrapeApe
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7/26/2019 3:37pm
ML512 wrote:
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer...
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer for testing with all coming back with a clean bill of health because there was zero EPS compression.
Lynch wrote:
I'm thinking Arai
Pretty sure that's the one.
There's no way, they are round
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acres951
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7/26/2019 3:45pm
ML512 wrote:
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer...
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer for testing with all coming back with a clean bill of health because there was zero EPS compression.
I think this points to something maybe more important than just rotational impact - eps layers.

If I’m on a budget I think I’d choose dual or triple density eps before I chose something with rotational protection. If I had to choose.

Which helmets have the thickest or most layers of the type of the density of eps that stops concussions?

I’m less concerned about hitting a car on an mx track.
1
acres951
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7/26/2019 3:51pm
ML512 wrote:
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer...
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer for testing with all coming back with a clean bill of health because there was zero EPS compression.
I think this points to something maybe more important than just rotational impact - eps layers.

If I’m on a budget I think I’d choose dual or triple density eps before I chose something with rotational protection. If I had to choose.

Which helmets have the thickest or most layers of the type of the density of eps that stops concussions?

I’m less concerned about hitting a car on an mx track.
1
ddog14
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7/26/2019 4:00pm
It's great to see all the manufactures doing their best to mitigate force to the brain. The consumer, however, does not have objective information about which...
It's great to see all the manufactures doing their best to mitigate force to the brain. The consumer, however, does not have objective information about which one does this best, which is pretty sad, as that is the function of a helmet. The AMA or other body should fund a lab to test them. I trust the Shoei, but that's a completely intuitive and gut thing. The Bell system seems a bit clunky. The Fox one could work well, but hard to tell. Arai rep has a point, but allowing the skull to move inside the helmet is always going to reduce force.
In the U.K. we have independent testing done by the government https://sharp.dft.gov.uk/ they buy helmets direct from dealers. This is not the same as the ACU test done by our racing federation. Unfortunately at the minute they don’t test for rotational and low speed so it’s not really relevant to us MX guys but you’d be shocked by some of the scores of leading manufacturers. It’s not all 5 stars! Hopefully as the FIM introduces rotational impacts to their test, Sharp will follow suit and maybe some MX helmets get tested in the future. It’s definitely a great service for street bike users though.
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swtwtwtw
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7/26/2019 4:35pm
Years ago, I went through a spell of concusses wearing HJC. SINCE THEN, I get knocked out pretty darn easily. The helmets that have served me best are the 6d, Arai, and Airoh. I love the last two so much those are all I’ll wear anymore.

FYI, if you’re young and ride a lot, you’re gonna crash a lot and you will likely get a concussion in any brand with or without concussion protection technology.
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Braaaphole
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7/26/2019 4:48pm
Falcon wrote:
Just FYI, I asked the Arai rep about their intentions to design a "next gen" helmet with some kind of rotational impact protection like MIPS or...
Just FYI, I asked the Arai rep about their intentions to design a "next gen" helmet with some kind of rotational impact protection like MIPS or the 6D design, and he stated they have absolutely no intention of doing so. Why? Here's what he said, paraphrased:
Arai has always performed better in rotational impact tests that other helmets because of the shape. Notice that an Arai is round, instead of having pointy shapes all over it. For that reason alone, the wearer's head will be less likely to be subjected to rotational impacts in the first place, and the need to reduce them is mitigated. Arai is also concerned that the physical structure of the elastomers inside a "next-gen" liner create hard points which reduce the impact absorption of the shell.

Food for thought.
Falcon, you've been around for a long time. I'm surprised you'd take this as anything more than a corporate structured response.

To respond to what they are saying here, yes the round, smooth shell can have some impact in very specific situations. The sharp edges could possibly catch and dig into certain surfaces. However, it's nearly impossible to quantify that because each impact is different. Different trajectory, different impact area, different angle, different surface angle, different substrate. So to say that there helmet is as good, or better, than the most advanced helmets on the market now is completely asinine. If Arai truly believed this, they would be sharing data to back it up.

At the end of the day, it's still a shell with a hard EPS liner, no different than the helmets we all wore in the 90's. I personally have 2 carbon shell helmets with EPS liners hanging in my garage that I was knocked out in, both Snell approved just like Arai. As an engineer, just feeling those helmets compared to my 6D or my kids Bell Moto 9 Carbon Flexx, it's very obvious that they don't offer the same level of impact absorption.
I don't believe the Bell even offers the same level of protection as the 6D. Because of that, I'm buying a 6D for my kid next week.
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JM485
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7/26/2019 5:13pm
Falcon wrote:
Just FYI, I asked the Arai rep about their intentions to design a "next gen" helmet with some kind of rotational impact protection like MIPS or...
Just FYI, I asked the Arai rep about their intentions to design a "next gen" helmet with some kind of rotational impact protection like MIPS or the 6D design, and he stated they have absolutely no intention of doing so. Why? Here's what he said, paraphrased:
Arai has always performed better in rotational impact tests that other helmets because of the shape. Notice that an Arai is round, instead of having pointy shapes all over it. For that reason alone, the wearer's head will be less likely to be subjected to rotational impacts in the first place, and the need to reduce them is mitigated. Arai is also concerned that the physical structure of the elastomers inside a "next-gen" liner create hard points which reduce the impact absorption of the shell.

Food for thought.
There's a good rule of thumb in engineering that goes something to the tune of "take whatever the salesman tells you, and multiply it by a safety factor of .25".

This argument from them is just rediculous, it's a motocross helmet with a visor and chin bar, the damn thing is going to catch the ground no matter how roundly its shaped, and when it does friction is all but guaranteed to cause some form of angular acceleration. Consider this, frictional force is a function of contact area, frictional coefficient, and the applied force between the two surfaces. Now, consider the amount of force present at the instant when your head smacks the living hell out of the ground, that's some serious force for a split second there, and I don't care how round your helmet is, there's going to be significant angular acceleration transferred through the helmet. Whether you hit the roundest part of the helmet or not is irrelevant at this point, the force is still going to be so high that the helmet is going to produce enough frictional force with the ground to create some level of angular acceleration. Unless we all start racing on oil covered ice, this is going to always be a factor. For them to sit there and claim that a rounder shape is going to help with the instantaneous angular acceleration that results from an impact is just so ludicrous I don't know if I want to laugh or cry.

The bottom line is helmet design is not where is should be in this day and age. A lack of testing protocol and complete absence of backbone from the AMA or FIM to produce tests and standards is probably the scariest part of this whole deal. At least we've got multiple companies trying to move in the right direction (some I think are complete gimmicks, others I believe have valid benefits, I'll hold those opinions to myself). It's not 1985 anymore, we've got better elastomers and multi-density foams available that can do the job better than any old designs could, to not take advantage of that (even if the costs are obscenely inflated for what they are) is just criminal. We've also got FEA and other analysis tools at our disposal these days that can help us make much better designs from the get-go, and as such we're seeing major improvements in helmets just in the last few years. Things will only get better, but I think we've got a ways to go still and naturally the competition between manufacturers will only benefit us.
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Casting
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7/26/2019 8:32pm
Jt$ wrote:
Sorry, this is horrifically inaccurate. YES, Rheon labs did testing as would any helmet tech company. That is an obvious step of the process to know...
Sorry, this is horrifically inaccurate. YES, Rheon labs did testing as would any helmet tech company. That is an obvious step of the process to know how the helmet performed.

The independent tests were done by SATRA labs and that’s well documented. We have no affiliation with that laboratory. You skipped over this fact entirely, even though it’s stated repeatedly in all literature, our catalog and on the website.

Please feel free to email me directly at Jthomas@flyracing.com and I can provide you my cell phone # if you’d like to discuss. Anything is better than this inaccuracy.
The SATRA testing is well documented, yes.

That does not change the fact that one of the two labs making claims also has an interest in how the helmet is received due to using some of their materials.

It just looks odd from the standpoint of someone who looks for objectivity when it comes to safety.
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Motofinne
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7/26/2019 10:35pm
ML512 wrote:
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer...
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer for testing with all coming back with a clean bill of health because there was zero EPS compression.
The easiest "guess" of all time.

Arai.
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T-Fish
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7/26/2019 10:49pm
Almost two full pages in and nobody has mentioned Leatt.
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Timo_2824
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7/27/2019 4:31am
I'll just throw this out there, on little tip over crashes where I hit my head I always used to feel funny and have a headache for the rest of the day. Since I started wearing a MIPS helmet I no longer have these issues on slow impact crashes. Not science, but the difference is night and day so there may be something to this energy absorption hypothesis...
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sandtrack315
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7/27/2019 4:38am
ML512 wrote:
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer...
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer for testing with all coming back with a clean bill of health because there was zero EPS compression.
Lynch wrote:
I'm thinking Arai
Pretty sure that's the one.
I didn’t send my Arai back after my concussion because I could see where the liner took the impact. This was a hard hit for sure, I had symptoms for 2-3 weeks. Is the knock on Arais that they are designed only for high force impacts?
1
7/27/2019 11:13am
Falcon wrote:
Just FYI, I asked the Arai rep about their intentions to design a "next gen" helmet with some kind of rotational impact protection like MIPS or...
Just FYI, I asked the Arai rep about their intentions to design a "next gen" helmet with some kind of rotational impact protection like MIPS or the 6D design, and he stated they have absolutely no intention of doing so. Why? Here's what he said, paraphrased:
Arai has always performed better in rotational impact tests that other helmets because of the shape. Notice that an Arai is round, instead of having pointy shapes all over it. For that reason alone, the wearer's head will be less likely to be subjected to rotational impacts in the first place, and the need to reduce them is mitigated. Arai is also concerned that the physical structure of the elastomers inside a "next-gen" liner create hard points which reduce the impact absorption of the shell.

Food for thought.
GrapeApe wrote:
I mean, they have to say [i]something[/i], right? The round helmet philosophy is fine, but I don't believe for a second they wouldn't benefit from modern...
I mean, they have to say something, right? The round helmet philosophy is fine, but I don't believe for a second they wouldn't benefit from modern technology. The other brands are innovating. If Arai doesn't believe in those innovations, why don't they try to come up with something better?
Maybe they believe they have the best system so they don’t need to change?
7/27/2019 11:25am
Start a Pateron/go-fund me etc to fund it, buy all the top contenders and find a lab to do the test publish the data. Problem solved....RMATV...
Start a Pateron/go-fund me etc to fund it, buy all the top contenders and find a lab to do the test publish the data. Problem solved....RMATV cart puts it at $4100 for Fox, Fly, Leatt, Bell, Arai, Shoei and 6D.
What does the testing cost though? 100k or something?
Falcon
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7/27/2019 11:26am
Falcon wrote:
Just FYI, I asked the Arai rep about their intentions to design a "next gen" helmet with some kind of rotational impact protection like MIPS or...
Just FYI, I asked the Arai rep about their intentions to design a "next gen" helmet with some kind of rotational impact protection like MIPS or the 6D design, and he stated they have absolutely no intention of doing so. Why? Here's what he said, paraphrased:
Arai has always performed better in rotational impact tests that other helmets because of the shape. Notice that an Arai is round, instead of having pointy shapes all over it. For that reason alone, the wearer's head will be less likely to be subjected to rotational impacts in the first place, and the need to reduce them is mitigated. Arai is also concerned that the physical structure of the elastomers inside a "next-gen" liner create hard points which reduce the impact absorption of the shell.

Food for thought.
GrapeApe wrote:
I mean, they have to say [i]something[/i], right? The round helmet philosophy is fine, but I don't believe for a second they wouldn't benefit from modern...
I mean, they have to say something, right? The round helmet philosophy is fine, but I don't believe for a second they wouldn't benefit from modern technology. The other brands are innovating. If Arai doesn't believe in those innovations, why don't they try to come up with something better?
Maybe they believe they have the best system so they don’t need to change?
For the record, I think Arai would do well to make some sort of "next generation" liner. I know all too well that marketing is a game and that you should sell what you have now. This is what they are doing. But remember, they championed the idea of rounded helmets long before 6D or MIPS were ever things.
That said, Arai has been at this game a long time and they do a lot of R&D. I feel safe in mine. Also, let's turn the marketing doublespeak around for a moment... Who is to say that MIPS couldn't help you in rotational impacts but hurt you in a direct, blunt-force impact? There is plenty of discussion in this thread already about "independent testing." Maybe the marketeers are just taking the newest acronym and running with it?
Ingjr1
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7/27/2019 1:01pm
So Arai gets roasted and the guy still hasn't told us if this was the brand or not. We can guess all we want but until said posters tells us, or not, we don't know it's Arai.
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mxbrian15
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7/27/2019 1:03pm Edited Date/Time 7/28/2019 5:30pm
ML512 wrote:
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer...
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer for testing with all coming back with a clean bill of health because there was zero EPS compression.
acres951 wrote:
I think this points to something maybe more important than just rotational impact - eps layers. If I’m on a budget I think I’d choose dual...
I think this points to something maybe more important than just rotational impact - eps layers.

If I’m on a budget I think I’d choose dual or triple density eps before I chose something with rotational protection. If I had to choose.

Which helmets have the thickest or most layers of the type of the density of eps that stops concussions?

I’m less concerned about hitting a car on an mx track.
Bell has 3 layers of different types of foam, each with a different density. That, and the epp that is in contact with your head can slide in different directions during a crash. The different densities is one of the things that really sold me on the Bell Flex. That, and it fits my head great.

Those that say the Bell Flex is just like MIPS are very misinformed. There’s a lot more going on than a thin plastic liner.
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VRR7
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7/27/2019 1:43pm
Leate helmet design would disagree with you on that point - The "longer the suspension" the greater the forces get to leverage against you. They reduce their helmet size for that exact reason.
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langhammx
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7/27/2019 2:12pm
ML512 wrote:
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer...
Guess what very expensive helmet mentioned in this thread I’ve been knocked out in three times and those helmets were then sent back to that manufacturer for testing with all coming back with a clean bill of health because there was zero EPS compression.
acres951 wrote:
I think this points to something maybe more important than just rotational impact - eps layers. If I’m on a budget I think I’d choose dual...
I think this points to something maybe more important than just rotational impact - eps layers.

If I’m on a budget I think I’d choose dual or triple density eps before I chose something with rotational protection. If I had to choose.

Which helmets have the thickest or most layers of the type of the density of eps that stops concussions?

I’m less concerned about hitting a car on an mx track.
mxbrian15 wrote:
Bell has 3 layers of different types of foam, each with a different density. That, and the epp that is in contact with your head can...
Bell has 3 layers of different types of foam, each with a different density. That, and the epp that is in contact with your head can slide in different directions during a crash. The different densities is one of the things that really sold me on the Bell Flex. That, and it fits my head great.

Those that say the Bell Flex is just like MIPS are very misinformed. There’s a lot more going on than a thin plastic liner.
My choice as well.

You are correct, it should be noted-
The Moto 9 is MIPS
https://www.bellhelmets.com/p/moto-9-mips-dirt-bike-helmet

The Moto 9 FLEX is not MIPS technology ...
https://www.bellhelmets.com/p/moto-9-flex-dirt-bike-helmet
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