Loretta's C Class?

8/7/2017 10:28am Edited Date/Time 8/7/2017 10:29am
Really, I might get why an A rider who saw some inactivity or suffered a setback might look for a lower class until he proves his competitiveness. But I can't think of any rational reason in the sake of competition to bump down a B.
TriRacer27
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8/7/2017 10:34am
http://lorettas.tracksideresults.com/class.asp?c=193&e=1&s= Check out 3rd place name.... Raced B class for the last 3 years with decent results and raced C class for 3 years before that...
http://lorettas.tracksideresults.com/class.asp?c=193&e=1&s=

Check out 3rd place name.... Raced B class for the last 3 years with decent results and raced C class for 3 years before that. Somehow ended up back in the C class this year to make a podium at the ranch.

http://results.americanmotorcyclist.com/Riders/65521-matthew-kretzler
WTF?

They need to get rid of that class at nationals once and for all. It's ridiculous to even have different skill classes at the national level, much less 3!

What other sport does this? Imagine if track & field, swimming, tennis, etc. had age groups but also skill groups at national meets? It would be news to me if they did but I've never heard of it.

At the national level you should have classes based only on displacement/mods and on age. Period. If you raced 80s last year and just moved up to the 250s, and you aren't one of the 42 fastest amateurs on a 250, tough luck, try again next year.

A, B and C classes are absolutely necessary at the local level to equalize speed differences and make it safer, but for national titles it's just silly.
Roostermx58
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8/7/2017 10:41am
Pool-eh wrote:
I believe they're referring to 250c Moto 3. The kid who got 3rd in that Moto crashed on the pedestrian tunnel roller to the left of...
I believe they're referring to 250c Moto 3. The kid who got 3rd in that Moto crashed on the pedestrian tunnel roller to the left of the start straight. he picked his bike up and rode across the start straight and hopped back onto the track right behind the people he was behind before the crash. Ends up getting third. Kid who won first two Motos got 5th that Moto and loses the tie breaker for the title. They protest saying the kid cut the track and AMA doesn't dock any time or spots.
Oh damn... That must of been a real mess. If it really went down like that, and the kid did cut the track which gained him...
Oh damn... That must of been a real mess. If it really went down like that, and the kid did cut the track which gained him an advantage... I hope every time he looks at that championship trophy, he knows deep down inside he didn't really earn it. Total asterisk.
His last lap time was the quickest out of any rider in his class that lap, by a good 2 seconds. That was also his fastest lap of that moto (with a crash mind you)
8/7/2017 11:04am Edited Date/Time 8/7/2017 11:53am
http://lorettas.tracksideresults.com/class.asp?c=193&e=1&s= Check out 3rd place name.... Raced B class for the last 3 years with decent results and raced C class for 3 years before that...
http://lorettas.tracksideresults.com/class.asp?c=193&e=1&s=

Check out 3rd place name.... Raced B class for the last 3 years with decent results and raced C class for 3 years before that. Somehow ended up back in the C class this year to make a podium at the ranch.

http://results.americanmotorcyclist.com/Riders/65521-matthew-kretzler
TriRacer27 wrote:
WTF? They need to get rid of that class at nationals once and for all. It's ridiculous to even have different skill classes at the national...
WTF?

They need to get rid of that class at nationals once and for all. It's ridiculous to even have different skill classes at the national level, much less 3!

What other sport does this? Imagine if track & field, swimming, tennis, etc. had age groups but also skill groups at national meets? It would be news to me if they did but I've never heard of it.

At the national level you should have classes based only on displacement/mods and on age. Period. If you raced 80s last year and just moved up to the 250s, and you aren't one of the 42 fastest amateurs on a 250, tough luck, try again next year.

A, B and C classes are absolutely necessary at the local level to equalize speed differences and make it safer, but for national titles it's just silly.
Keep the C class. And keep it 1 year only. Enforce any rules that move those riders up.

Novices are essential and the bread-and-butter to the sport. But nobody gets to keep claiming that status without lying their ass off. And there is no reason, period, for a B class rider to appeal to a lower placement.

The Shop

mx317
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8/7/2017 11:32am
Unless it has changed since I was an AMA referee, once you moved out of the C class you could never go back. You could move from A back to B if you petitioned your district or the AMA and it was approved.
mx317
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8/7/2017 11:35am
And another thing, I know someone who raced Loretta's 2 or 3 times in the C class by applying for a new AMA card every year with a slightly different name and address. Wink
jrminiquad
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8/7/2017 11:46am
A lot of these follow up posts keep stating what the AMA and MX Sports should do or shouldn't do, etc., etc.

Bottom line - the rules are already in place.

The AMA/MX Sports chooses to ignore them in most cases.

Straight from the horses (AMA's) mouth at the beginning of this year:

If you have EVER raced a higher classification race in ANY organization's MX race, you CANNOT go back to a lower classification at an area or regional qualifier with the intent to race at Loretta's.

Sounds like they need to hire someone who researches anyone who qualifies for Loretta's to see if they are valid or not.

Now the whole scenario with riders appealing to stay down when the AMA wants to advance them is a whole other can of worms, and we peasants are kept in the dark on how that appeals approval comes about.
8/7/2017 11:52am Edited Date/Time 8/7/2017 11:58am
mx317 wrote:
And another thing, I know someone who raced Loretta's 2 or 3 times in the C class by applying for a new AMA card every year...
And another thing, I know someone who raced Loretta's 2 or 3 times in the C class by applying for a new AMA card every year with a slightly different name and address. Wink
Seems like that should be easily identified in ANY class. You pull that shit, you are disapproved pending board-written approval to HIGHEST applicable class.
MotoX85
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8/7/2017 12:12pm
I saw that Mark, coincidentily, same guy runs that series and website
MotoX85
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8/7/2017 12:23pm
http://lorettas.tracksideresults.com/class.asp?c=193&e=1&s= Check out 3rd place name.... Raced B class for the last 3 years with decent results and raced C class for 3 years before that...
http://lorettas.tracksideresults.com/class.asp?c=193&e=1&s=

Check out 3rd place name.... Raced B class for the last 3 years with decent results and raced C class for 3 years before that. Somehow ended up back in the C class this year to make a podium at the ranch.

http://results.americanmotorcyclist.com/Riders/65521-matthew-kretzler
TriRacer27 wrote:
WTF? They need to get rid of that class at nationals once and for all. It's ridiculous to even have different skill classes at the national...
WTF?

They need to get rid of that class at nationals once and for all. It's ridiculous to even have different skill classes at the national level, much less 3!

What other sport does this? Imagine if track & field, swimming, tennis, etc. had age groups but also skill groups at national meets? It would be news to me if they did but I've never heard of it.

At the national level you should have classes based only on displacement/mods and on age. Period. If you raced 80s last year and just moved up to the 250s, and you aren't one of the 42 fastest amateurs on a 250, tough luck, try again next year.

A, B and C classes are absolutely necessary at the local level to equalize speed differences and make it safer, but for national titles it's just silly.
Totally agree. I know a lot of people really focus on Lorettas but to me the fact they keep adding C classes and give so much attention to that group, it seems to be struggling for credibility.

I understand the age requirements of the B class let young phenoms run extremely fast lap times, but I have no idea how it's an accomplishment to be the Beginner national champion.

When I was heavy racing, we did everything we could to move up. 1st place in C was considered behind last place in B, and same for B to A. Now they doing everything not to move up.
8/7/2017 12:30pm Edited Date/Time 8/7/2017 12:31pm
C Class at Loretta's should still compete, but the trophy should be engraved with, " *Real championship available next year"
8/7/2017 2:12pm Edited Date/Time 8/7/2017 2:15pm
Back in the mid 80s when I raced BMX you basically had 2 sanctioning bodies, the ABA and the NBL who have now become just one, and each had thier own rules for moving up that were similar if not identical and that were directed from thier National Offices that all the local tracks followed like they should and i honestly don't ever remember sand bagging or all this gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands over either locally or at any of a few dozen National events I competed in.

Just take a look at any of the contingency flyers and youll see almost a different sanctioning body for each series that the manufacturer pays out for with divergent rider class progression rules and criteria.... Class structures that dont match..... IE D class vs C class.... Entities that don't communicate outside of thier own bodies and who have no motivation to share information, results etc. or to standardize at the least classes.

The AMA is supposed to be that single Governing body but i raced individual races and full blown series all over this country from CA NV, PA, OH, NC and others and never have had to buy an AMA membership yet because they're so many other bodies out there.

I think a partial solution or at least a step in the right direction would be if the manufacturers only paid contigency money based upon time in class regardless of results...... IE a rider can only win contigency $ for 12 months in the C/D classes..... if they arent fast enough to move up thats too bad..... if they want to earn anymore $ theyll only be eligble in the next higher class and the clock starts in that next higher class as soon as they hit that 12 month mark in the C/D class regardless if the rider moved up and only allows them to be ilegible in that class for maybe 18 to 24 months..... If the rider progresses no further so be it.... they can get all the gaudy plastic trophies they want but they can only continue earning paper if theyre progressing thru the ranks.

Im sure they'res a bunch of what ifs in the scenario i suggest with respect to age categories, riders moving up sooner etc. but that would be my suggestion for doing something about the problem.
seemoney49
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8/7/2017 2:28pm
who cares if your kid is racing the c class he either sucks is just starting out or has a long god dam road still to go so they just didn't drink enough beer or are a bunch of time wasters.... #cclasssucksassandneedsclass
8/7/2017 2:29pm
mx317 wrote:
And another thing, I know someone who raced Loretta's 2 or 3 times in the C class by applying for a new AMA card every year...
And another thing, I know someone who raced Loretta's 2 or 3 times in the C class by applying for a new AMA card every year with a slightly different name and address. Wink
I hear this story every year it seems, but no one will ever provide a name. Maybe a long time ago, but with the internet and availability of results I doubt this happens now.
Camp332
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8/7/2017 2:33pm
919x wrote:
Video too........ Helmet Cam: Matthew Kretzler 250B LTM LLAQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ecPWlhmyY
Video too........

Helmet Cam: Matthew Kretzler 250B LTM LLAQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ecPWlhmyY
Damn! Race LLAQ in 250B back in 2015, now races the 250C limited at LL's this year? Not that I really care, but I'm just trying to wrap my head around the logic that these kids, and their parents use to justify doing it?

http://lorettas.tracksideresults.com/class.asp?c=189&e=1&s=
305FC250
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8/7/2017 2:46pm
seemoney49 wrote:
who cares if your kid is racing the c class he either sucks is just starting out or has a long god dam road still to...
who cares if your kid is racing the c class he either sucks is just starting out or has a long god dam road still to go so they just didn't drink enough beer or are a bunch of time wasters.... #cclasssucksassandneedsclass
Nobody who is "just starting out" goes to Lorettas for C class and qualifies lol
8/7/2017 2:50pm
sgrimmxdad wrote:
We have a local guy that rides A class locally all year, goes to qualify in C and can't make it. Takes balls or lack there...
We have a local guy that rides A class locally all year, goes to qualify in C and can't make it. Takes balls or lack there of lol...
So who is this guy who rides A class all year but cant qualify for C?
peelout
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8/7/2017 2:56pm
919x wrote:
Video too........ Helmet Cam: Matthew Kretzler 250B LTM LLAQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ecPWlhmyY
Video too........

Helmet Cam: Matthew Kretzler 250B LTM LLAQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ecPWlhmyY
Camp332 wrote:
Damn! Race LLAQ in 250B back in 2015, now races the 250C limited at LL's this year? Not that I really care, but I'm just trying...
Damn! Race LLAQ in 250B back in 2015, now races the 250C limited at LL's this year? Not that I really care, but I'm just trying to wrap my head around the logic that these kids, and their parents use to justify doing it?

http://lorettas.tracksideresults.com/class.asp?c=189&e=1&s=
hey, at least he didn't change his name to Matilde and race the Girls 12-16 class
8/7/2017 3:17pm
ehr400 wrote:
Yep, and there will be alot of defenders in here at Vital too. B and C classes are huge money makers for them. I mean Top...
Yep, and there will be alot of defenders in here at Vital too. B and C classes are huge money makers for them. I mean Top Jimmy even said on the broadcast one day, most of the time the top 5 B class guys are faster then the prosport guys, and usually bypass next season of A and go straight to Pros. This is the issue right here.
This statement is kind of like a CNN report about Donald Trump. Sounds horrible, but in reality, is not true. Since 2007 I could only find 3 top B riders who skipped their A year and went straight to the pros. Cooper Webb, Austin Forkner, and Barcia are the only riders in the top 5 of 250B mod (the toughest B class at LLs) who went directly to the outdoors. I'm sure I missed a few, but it is definitely not most, more like once in a great while.

As for laptimes this year, this is not precise, but pretty close looking at the two A classes and 250B mod and 450B mod:

1, Justin Cooper - A - 1:54
2. Enzo Lopes - A - 1:56
3. Jayce Pennington - A - 1:56
4. Joey Crown, Jake Masterpool, -A-, and Seth Hammaker - B 1:57
5. Marchbanks, Halpain, and Papi - B - 1:58 Alves, Pinhancos - A 1:58
6 Four B riders and Falk turned a 1:59

I think Marchbanks may have been in the 1:55s in Schoolboy 2

The best C rider time in 250C was 2:06
1
8/7/2017 3:36pm
seemoney49 wrote:
who cares if your kid is racing the c class he either sucks is just starting out or has a long god dam road still to...
who cares if your kid is racing the c class he either sucks is just starting out or has a long god dam road still to go so they just didn't drink enough beer or are a bunch of time wasters.... #cclasssucksassandneedsclass
305FC250 wrote:
Nobody who is "just starting out" goes to Lorettas for C class and qualifies lol
I don't care if they're just starting out. But if they've been there 3 previous years, that C gig should be dried up.
8/7/2017 3:44pm Edited Date/Time 8/7/2017 3:49pm
ehr400 wrote:
Yep, and there will be alot of defenders in here at Vital too. B and C classes are huge money makers for them. I mean Top...
Yep, and there will be alot of defenders in here at Vital too. B and C classes are huge money makers for them. I mean Top Jimmy even said on the broadcast one day, most of the time the top 5 B class guys are faster then the prosport guys, and usually bypass next season of A and go straight to Pros. This is the issue right here.
SlowOldGuy wrote:
This statement is kind of like a CNN report about Donald Trump. Sounds horrible, but in reality, is not true. Since 2007 I could only find...
This statement is kind of like a CNN report about Donald Trump. Sounds horrible, but in reality, is not true. Since 2007 I could only find 3 top B riders who skipped their A year and went straight to the pros. Cooper Webb, Austin Forkner, and Barcia are the only riders in the top 5 of 250B mod (the toughest B class at LLs) who went directly to the outdoors. I'm sure I missed a few, but it is definitely not most, more like once in a great while.

As for laptimes this year, this is not precise, but pretty close looking at the two A classes and 250B mod and 450B mod:

1, Justin Cooper - A - 1:54
2. Enzo Lopes - A - 1:56
3. Jayce Pennington - A - 1:56
4. Joey Crown, Jake Masterpool, -A-, and Seth Hammaker - B 1:57
5. Marchbanks, Halpain, and Papi - B - 1:58 Alves, Pinhancos - A 1:58
6 Four B riders and Falk turned a 1:59

I think Marchbanks may have been in the 1:55s in Schoolboy 2

The best C rider time in 250C was 2:06
The fact that C Riders couldn't muster top B times isn't proof there isn't sandbagging.

Bottom B times are the appropriate comparison, not the top ones. Otherwise there's no need for both classes.

We already know they are not as fast as a quick B, just by the fact they don't want to face them.
8/7/2017 3:57pm
seemoney49 wrote:
who cares if your kid is racing the c class he either sucks is just starting out or has a long god dam road still to...
who cares if your kid is racing the c class he either sucks is just starting out or has a long god dam road still to go so they just didn't drink enough beer or are a bunch of time wasters.... #cclasssucksassandneedsclass
305FC250 wrote:
Nobody who is "just starting out" goes to Lorettas for C class and qualifies lol
I don't care if they're just starting out. But if they've been there 3 previous years, that C gig should be dried up.
You cant ride C at Lorettas if you have ever been in any clasd. Exceptions are 4-6 50 classes and girls. So no one is racing C more than once at LLs
8/7/2017 3:58pm Edited Date/Time 8/7/2017 4:00pm
SlowOldGuy wrote:
You cant ride C at Lorettas if you have ever been in any clasd. Exceptions are 4-6 50 classes and girls. So no one is racing...
You cant ride C at Lorettas if you have ever been in any clasd. Exceptions are 4-6 50 classes and girls. So no one is racing C more than once at LLs
We all agree with the rules as written in concept, but read back through this thread. It is not being universally practiced.
8/7/2017 4:05pm Edited Date/Time 8/7/2017 4:07pm
We all agree with the rules as written in concept, but read back through this thread. It is not being universally practiced.
Until I see the name of someone who raced c class more than once, I'm going to chalk it up to urban legend. Same with the supposed A class guy who runs A the whole year and then C at the qualifiers in North Carolina.
kkawboy14
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8/7/2017 4:14pm
Get rid of the A and B classes and just have the C and Woods classes in Amateur
8/7/2017 4:14pm Edited Date/Time 8/7/2017 4:17pm
We all agree with the rules as written in concept, but read back through this thread. It is not being universally practiced.
SlowOldGuy wrote:
Until I see the name of someone who raced c class more than once, I'm going to chalk it up to urban legend. Same with the...
Until I see the name of someone who raced c class more than once, I'm going to chalk it up to urban legend. Same with the supposed A class guy who runs A the whole year and then C at the qualifiers in North Carolina.
It may not be all LL, but the kid people are discussing in this thread has a record that is pretty visible and more than suspect (outside written rule) for that class.
8/7/2017 4:21pm
http://lorettas.tracksideresults.com/class.asp?c=193&e=1&s= Check out 3rd place name.... Raced B class for the last 3 years with decent results and raced C class for 3 years before that...
http://lorettas.tracksideresults.com/class.asp?c=193&e=1&s=

Check out 3rd place name.... Raced B class for the last 3 years with decent results and raced C class for 3 years before that. Somehow ended up back in the C class this year to make a podium at the ranch.

http://results.americanmotorcyclist.com/Riders/65521-matthew-kretzler
TriRacer27 wrote:
WTF? They need to get rid of that class at nationals once and for all. It's ridiculous to even have different skill classes at the national...
WTF?

They need to get rid of that class at nationals once and for all. It's ridiculous to even have different skill classes at the national level, much less 3!

What other sport does this? Imagine if track & field, swimming, tennis, etc. had age groups but also skill groups at national meets? It would be news to me if they did but I've never heard of it.

At the national level you should have classes based only on displacement/mods and on age. Period. If you raced 80s last year and just moved up to the 250s, and you aren't one of the 42 fastest amateurs on a 250, tough luck, try again next year.

A, B and C classes are absolutely necessary at the local level to equalize speed differences and make it safer, but for national titles it's just silly.
Other sports have Highschool, College, Minors and Pros. BMX, Road racing, Dirt track, flat track, Cross counrty and the list goes on and on all have skill levels. This isn't the National Pro's, it is as it is named "Amateur National".
mx317
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8/7/2017 4:24pm
We all agree with the rules as written in concept, but read back through this thread. It is not being universally practiced.
SlowOldGuy wrote:
Until I see the name of someone who raced c class more than once, I'm going to chalk it up to urban legend. Same with the...
Until I see the name of someone who raced c class more than once, I'm going to chalk it up to urban legend. Same with the supposed A class guy who runs A the whole year and then C at the qualifiers in North Carolina.
Give me your email and I will give you a name
8/7/2017 6:17pm
I feel as if C class at an armature championship is just slower B riders, in other words sandbag city.

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