Kudos, Concerns and thanks for KTM!!

panic revver 6/18/2010 9:44am
6/18/2010 9:44am Edited Date/Time 6/18/2010 9:45am
pie8man wrote:
It is not a straight percentage of max horsepower lost. If you take the HP and Torque curve and move it straight down the chart and...
It is not a straight percentage of max horsepower lost. If you take the HP and Torque curve and move it straight down the chart and flatten it out a bit. That is what you get. You have to look at it as the distance away from 0 hp and 0 torque and compare the two, not the total amount lost by each.
Way above my head for a Friday. I will just watch from the sidelines.
Torco1
Profile picture for user Torco1
Posts
6591
Joined
4/27/2007
Location
Corona, CA US
Torco1 6/18/2010 9:45am
6/18/2010 9:45am
pie8man wrote:
American trait that we deal with facts. It is a proven fact with all combustion engines that they produce less power at altitude and that the...
American trait that we deal with facts. It is a proven fact with all combustion engines that they produce less power at altitude and that the smaller displacement motors are more affected. When you factor in that the current crop of 450's at the factory level are detuned they have more options to deal with the oxygen deprived air.
95/5 rider to bike is a joke. while that is true at the local level, at the professional level without a great bike tuned to the rider they will not be competitive.
Team Euro wrote:
Too bad that a rider has to be defeated before he even hits the gate, a American excuse trait. The faster you are in the straights...
Too bad that a rider has to be defeated before he even hits the gate, a American excuse trait. The faster you are in the straights the sooner you have to brake for the corner. So if you had a 700 cc bike you would would kick ass on a real 125 jockey because you had power instead of talent and mindset, why go to the gate defeated by thinking about "horsepower" what about talent and confidence.95% rider 5% bike..
I know what you're saying about the 95% rider 5% bike statement, but at some point the bike does come into play a little more than 5%. A rider that knows he has the best bike and best equipment is going to be more confident in himself and his bike, which will affect his riding and results. That's why these guys test so much, at the pro level they need the perfect set- up in order to feel they can compete, even though it may be mental it still plays a large role in how they perform. So I think the bike should get a little more credit than 5%.......imo.
Outsider
Profile picture for user Outsider
Posts
10634
Joined
1/29/2009
Location
Huntington Beach, CA US
Outsider 6/18/2010 9:45am
6/18/2010 9:45am
Racer111 wrote:
Just thinking about it, but whether I do or don't ever own a [b]KTM[/b] bike, they deserve some well deserved props for everything they are doing...
Just thinking about it, but whether I do or don't ever own a KTM bike, they deserve some well deserved props for everything they are doing. They actually are the ONLY Compnay out there trying to please EVERYONE.

They still make 2 Strokes and put R&D in to them while maintaing and improving their 250/450 4 Strokes as well as the new 350 4 Stroke.

Yamaha still makes a 2 Stroke, but it is what, 2006 Technology? The big 4 can only rest on their laurels for so long. They are going to have to do more than just EFI and frame geometry to compete with the Monster KTM is trying to become.


NOW for the concerns!

Lakewood - Horsepower robbing track - MXoN - KTM - 350

This bike is already at a 100cc disadvantage. Is Lakewood going to make it even worse?

AC is the Man over in the GP's right now and is an amazing talent for sure. However, I think AC and the rest of the GP guys are already going to struggle with the "altitude" in Colorado themselves, much less his bike as well. I hope he has a 450 prepared for that race. I know KTM and Everts are going to watch Alessi like a hawk at the Lakewood National.

Who picked this track for the MXoN anyway? If the US wins, the GP riders already have a built in excuse for the altitude. And rightfully so. Whoever represents the US there will no doubt have at least 2 years of experience at this place.

Anyway, KTM, I am not sold on you yet, but your head and Company is heading in the right direction and the only one doing so, so thank you and my hats off to you!
Pretty much what I was saying.
Team Euro
Profile picture for user Team Euro
Posts
593
Joined
4/29/2010
Location
SE
Team Euro 6/18/2010 9:58am
6/18/2010 9:58am
Take a example of say, Max Nagl. He makes adjustments to suspension and jetting and runs the same tire for every race except of course sand, but the point is he knows what his bike and tires are going to do and relies on his talent as a rider to overcome whatever needs to be dealt with to excel for the day. The bike is only a tool to be used to showcase his talent and mentality as a professional rider.

The Shop

See All »
Titan1
Profile picture for user Titan1
Posts
8618
Joined
2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT US
Titan1 6/18/2010 10:08am
6/18/2010 10:08am
Team Euro wrote:
Take a example of say, Max Nagl. He makes adjustments to suspension and jetting and runs the same tire for every race except of course sand...
Take a example of say, Max Nagl. He makes adjustments to suspension and jetting and runs the same tire for every race except of course sand, but the point is he knows what his bike and tires are going to do and relies on his talent as a rider to overcome whatever needs to be dealt with to excel for the day. The bike is only a tool to be used to showcase his talent and mentality as a professional rider.
Hey! There you are....

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/MotoRelated,20/Remember-when-the-National…
Torco1
Profile picture for user Torco1
Posts
6591
Joined
4/27/2007
Location
Corona, CA US
Torco1 6/18/2010 10:12am
6/18/2010 10:12am
Team Euro wrote:
Take a example of say, Max Nagl. He makes adjustments to suspension and jetting and runs the same tire for every race except of course sand...
Take a example of say, Max Nagl. He makes adjustments to suspension and jetting and runs the same tire for every race except of course sand, but the point is he knows what his bike and tires are going to do and relies on his talent as a rider to overcome whatever needs to be dealt with to excel for the day. The bike is only a tool to be used to showcase his talent and mentality as a professional rider.
That's pretty much what most of the testing here entails, they are mainly getting the suspension and jetting correct for the upcoming conditions. I just think it would be pretty hard for most pro's to get on a bone stock bike and go out and win or podium a national, GP, supercross, etc.....
Torco1
Profile picture for user Torco1
Posts
6591
Joined
4/27/2007
Location
Corona, CA US
Torco1 6/18/2010 10:14am
6/18/2010 10:14am
Team Euro wrote:
Take a example of say, Max Nagl. He makes adjustments to suspension and jetting and runs the same tire for every race except of course sand...
Take a example of say, Max Nagl. He makes adjustments to suspension and jetting and runs the same tire for every race except of course sand, but the point is he knows what his bike and tires are going to do and relies on his talent as a rider to overcome whatever needs to be dealt with to excel for the day. The bike is only a tool to be used to showcase his talent and mentality as a professional rider.
Titan1 wrote:
Hey! There you are....

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/MotoRelated,20/Remember-when-the-National…
Woohoo You're cracking me up Titan every time I see you pop up and promote that thread. Classic
pie8man
Profile picture for user pie8man
Posts
635
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Loveland, CO US
pie8man 6/18/2010 10:14am
6/18/2010 10:14am
I am not in any way counting Alessi out at Colorado. After the couple of hills the track is pretty tight and has just as many downhills as it does up. I'm simply saying that of all the tracks the bike will go to this one at elevation with an uphill start may be especially challenging for a down on displacement machine. The truth will be told next weekend and I'll be watching live standing in the dirt!!
Outsider
Profile picture for user Outsider
Posts
10634
Joined
1/29/2009
Location
Huntington Beach, CA US
Outsider 6/18/2010 10:18am
6/18/2010 10:18am
Just for fun, guessing at #'s.... taken from this.. HP calculator

RMZ 450[/b[b]]- 60bhp -9.9 = 50.1bhp

Your BHP loss computed from your BHP of 60 at sea level and Elevation of 5500 feet is 9.90 HP loss.


KTM 350 55bhp -9.08 = 45.92bhp

[i]Your BHP loss computed from your BHP of 55 at sea level and Elevation of 5500 feet is 9.08 HP loss.[/i]
panic revver 6/18/2010 10:28am
6/18/2010 10:28am
Outsider wrote:
Just for fun, guessing at #'s.... taken from this.. [url=http://www.wallaceracing.com/braking-hp.php]HP calculator[/url] [b]RMZ 450[/b[b]]- 60bhp -9.9 = 50.1bhp[/b] [i]Your BHP loss computed from your BHP of 60...
Just for fun, guessing at #'s.... taken from this.. HP calculator

RMZ 450[/b[b]]- 60bhp -9.9 = 50.1bhp

Your BHP loss computed from your BHP of 60 at sea level and Elevation of 5500 feet is 9.90 HP loss.


KTM 350 55bhp -9.08 = 45.92bhp

[i]Your BHP loss computed from your BHP of 55 at sea level and Elevation of 5500 feet is 9.08 HP loss.[/i]
Wow. Didn't think the loss would be that much.
Hank_Thrill
Profile picture for user Hank_Thrill
Posts
4506
Joined
9/22/2008
Location
Arlen, TX US
Hank_Thrill 6/18/2010 10:31am
6/18/2010 10:31am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 11:27pm
I commend them. Why anyone who isn't a serious racer would ride a 4-stroke beats me. The best guys in the world switched over to four strokes to knock a second off their lap times. However, most of us who ride dirtbikes are not at the professional level (well, about 99% of us). So, because the manufactures pushed and paid riders millions of dollars to ride these 4-strokes, the people who never make a penny of MX went out and bought heavy, expensive to maintain four strokes, nearly impossible for the average joe to work on, 4-strokes.


Oh yeah, there is a plus to the 4-strokes: you don't have to mix the gas.


The MX community has been fooled into buying these things through millions of dollars of advertisement, and with the widening wealth gap in America (the few richer getting richer, mostly poorer getting poorer, with the vanishing of the middle class), how is this sport ever going to grow when most people can't afford it these days?
Suns_PSD
Profile picture for user Suns_PSD
Posts
989
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Austin, TX US
Suns_PSD 6/18/2010 12:08pm
6/18/2010 12:08pm
Outsider wrote:
All the bikes will be effected by the altitude, therefore the power differences between 450 and 350, if there is any, (we haven't seen them on...
All the bikes will be effected by the altitude, therefore the power differences between 450 and 350, if there is any, (we haven't seen them on the dyno to get actual data,) should be pretty much the same anywhere.

Yet, the improved handling of the 350, (if there is any) will still be the same. imo
The difference is that many times the riders can not use all of the hp a 450 has to offer. Lakewood is not that track. That is ultimately why these 40 hp 250Fs can run similiar lap times.

I use to ride that place and those hills, altitude, and sand can really suck the hp. On the other hand (as you pointed out) some of those off camber downhills might prove to be much easier on the 350F as they are tricky on a heavy fast bike.

95% rider, 5% bike huh? LOL. Not at this level dude. The rider and the bike have to both be 100% to get results and even the tiniest of equipment advantages can translate into improved positioning on the track.

Racer111
Profile picture for user Racer111
Posts
2767
Joined
5/23/2009
Location
Concord, NC US
Racer111 6/18/2010 1:47pm
6/18/2010 1:47pm
Racer111 wrote:
Just thinking about it, but whether I do or don't ever own a [b]KTM[/b] bike, they deserve some well deserved props for everything they are doing...
Just thinking about it, but whether I do or don't ever own a KTM bike, they deserve some well deserved props for everything they are doing. They actually are the ONLY Compnay out there trying to please EVERYONE.

They still make 2 Strokes and put R&D in to them while maintaing and improving their 250/450 4 Strokes as well as the new 350 4 Stroke.

Yamaha still makes a 2 Stroke, but it is what, 2006 Technology? The big 4 can only rest on their laurels for so long. They are going to have to do more than just EFI and frame geometry to compete with the Monster KTM is trying to become.


NOW for the concerns!

Lakewood - Horsepower robbing track - MXoN - KTM - 350

This bike is already at a 100cc disadvantage. Is Lakewood going to make it even worse?

AC is the Man over in the GP's right now and is an amazing talent for sure. However, I think AC and the rest of the GP guys are already going to struggle with the "altitude" in Colorado themselves, much less his bike as well. I hope he has a 450 prepared for that race. I know KTM and Everts are going to watch Alessi like a hawk at the Lakewood National.

Who picked this track for the MXoN anyway? If the US wins, the GP riders already have a built in excuse for the altitude. And rightfully so. Whoever represents the US there will no doubt have at least 2 years of experience at this place.

Anyway, KTM, I am not sold on you yet, but your head and Company is heading in the right direction and the only one doing so, so thank you and my hats off to you!
WORCSRacer wrote:
Why is the 350 altitude performance a concern for you? Do you race a Lakewood much? The highest point in KY is what 4200 ft? Geez...
Why is the 350 altitude performance a concern for you? Do you race a Lakewood much? The highest point in KY is what 4200 ft?

Geez how about buying a bike that would be good for you? How about buying from a company making the effort to provide racer with what they want. Sure seems like you more worried that if the 350 doesn't win at Lakewood then it invalidates it as an option for the enthusiasts. As if the 350 success or failure in the AMA or FIM Championships has any bearing on your results.
Can you tell me where in the world you got that I didn't want a 350 because I was concerned about it's performance at Lakewood? Actually, can you tell me where I said anything close to I didn't want one for any reason?? Learn to read and then work on comprehending what you read!!

My concerns about the 350 were just QUESTIONS and THOUGHTS about the Lakewood National and MXoN, but mainly the concerns of the guys riding them. Nothing more and nothing less. I personally think the 350 is a great idea. The best one since the 4-stroke came about.


Now go work on your reading skills!
Torco1
Profile picture for user Torco1
Posts
6591
Joined
4/27/2007
Location
Corona, CA US
Torco1 6/18/2010 1:51pm
6/18/2010 1:51pm
Racer111 wrote:
Can you tell me where in the world you got that I didn't want a 350 because I was concerned about it's performance at Lakewood? Actually...
Can you tell me where in the world you got that I didn't want a 350 because I was concerned about it's performance at Lakewood? Actually, can you tell me where I said anything close to I didn't want one for any reason?? Learn to read and then work on comprehending what you read!!

My concerns about the 350 were just QUESTIONS and THOUGHTS about the Lakewood National and MXoN, but mainly the concerns of the guys riding them. Nothing more and nothing less. I personally think the 350 is a great idea. The best one since the 4-stroke came about.


Now go work on your reading skills!
No shit, it looked to me like you praised KTM more than anything.
Racer111
Profile picture for user Racer111
Posts
2767
Joined
5/23/2009
Location
Concord, NC US
Racer111 6/18/2010 2:00pm
6/18/2010 2:00pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 11:27pm
Racer111 wrote:
Can you tell me where in the world you got that I didn't want a 350 because I was concerned about it's performance at Lakewood? Actually...
Can you tell me where in the world you got that I didn't want a 350 because I was concerned about it's performance at Lakewood? Actually, can you tell me where I said anything close to I didn't want one for any reason?? Learn to read and then work on comprehending what you read!!

My concerns about the 350 were just QUESTIONS and THOUGHTS about the Lakewood National and MXoN, but mainly the concerns of the guys riding them. Nothing more and nothing less. I personally think the 350 is a great idea. The best one since the 4-stroke came about.


Now go work on your reading skills!
Torco1 wrote:
No shit, it looked to me like you praised KTM more than anything.
I know right???

I think this guy is so use to people dogging KTM, he just assumed I was too and commented. lol

Pit Row

See All »
scooter5002
Profile picture for user scooter5002
Posts
4761
Joined
6/6/2010
Location
Nanton Alberta CA
scooter5002 6/18/2010 3:25pm
6/18/2010 3:25pm
Hey fast willy. Don't sugar coat it, tell us what you really think! Wow! That must be from living too close to Jersey. You know, the Sopranos and all. That was an amazing documentary series, wasn't it? What was that, about a 6 or 8 year run? And all that killing and shit. How did they film that and no one ever got arrested?
dunn2500
Profile picture for user dunn2500
Posts
516
Joined
5/2/2008
Location
Burbank, CA US
dunn2500 6/18/2010 5:51pm
6/18/2010 5:51pm
the horsepower loss is equal to both machines so it will be the same as there running a reg nat.........to op cant believe you would think that the 350 would lose hp but not the 450
Racer111
Profile picture for user Racer111
Posts
2767
Joined
5/23/2009
Location
Concord, NC US
Racer111 6/18/2010 5:57pm
6/18/2010 5:57pm
dunn2500 wrote:
the horsepower loss is equal to both machines so it will be the same as there running a reg nat.........to op cant believe you would think...
the horsepower loss is equal to both machines so it will be the same as there running a reg nat.........to op cant believe you would think that the 350 would lose hp but not the 450
The HP loss is still going to be more noticeable on the 350 than the 450. It isn't rocket science! Especially on an uphill start that high above sea level.
Torco1
Profile picture for user Torco1
Posts
6591
Joined
4/27/2007
Location
Corona, CA US
Torco1 6/18/2010 6:05pm
6/18/2010 6:05pm
dunn2500 wrote:
the horsepower loss is equal to both machines so it will be the same as there running a reg nat.........to op cant believe you would think...
the horsepower loss is equal to both machines so it will be the same as there running a reg nat.........to op cant believe you would think that the 350 would lose hp but not the 450
Racer111 wrote:
The HP loss is still going to be more noticeable on the 350 than the 450. It isn't rocket science! Especially on an uphill start that...
The HP loss is still going to be more noticeable on the 350 than the 450. It isn't rocket science! Especially on an uphill start that high above sea level.
I think you're fighting a losing battle on this one Racer. Most people that are arguing with you dont get the point you were making in your first post.
Team Euro
Profile picture for user Team Euro
Posts
593
Joined
4/29/2010
Location
SE
Team Euro 6/18/2010 6:06pm
6/18/2010 6:06pm
As Cairoli or Desalle or Nagl would say..I don`t need no stinkin start. All 3 have come from back of the pack accidents/mistakes to podium finishes. Just have to step up and do it, Searle and Tyla were masters at it also
jgmxdad251
Profile picture for user jgmxdad251
Posts
1230
Joined
11/23/2008
Location
Simi Valley, CA US
jgmxdad251 6/18/2010 6:32pm
6/18/2010 6:32pm
Team Euro wrote:
As Cairoli or Desalle or Nagl would say..I don`t need no stinkin start. All 3 have come from back of the pack accidents/mistakes to podium finishes...
As Cairoli or Desalle or Nagl would say..I don`t need no stinkin start. All 3 have come from back of the pack accidents/mistakes to podium finishes. Just have to step up and do it, Searle and Tyla were masters at it also
Maybe in the GP's, but not here. You have a mistake or accident in our series, you don't make the podium unless your initials are JS or RC most of the time. I have to give you some credit though, at least you used the word were when you mentioned Searle and Tyla. I haven't seen them come from the back in the AMA series.It must mean the competition is weaker over there.LaughingLaughingLaughing
crf250pilot
Profile picture for user crf250pilot
Posts
2080
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Manning, OR US
crf250pilot 6/19/2010 1:33am
6/19/2010 1:33am
Outsider wrote:
Just for fun, guessing at #'s.... taken from this.. [url=http://www.wallaceracing.com/braking-hp.php]HP calculator[/url] [b]RMZ 450[/b[b]]- 60bhp -9.9 = 50.1bhp[/b] [i]Your BHP loss computed from your BHP of 60...
Just for fun, guessing at #'s.... taken from this.. HP calculator

RMZ 450[/b[b]]- 60bhp -9.9 = 50.1bhp

Your BHP loss computed from your BHP of 60 at sea level and Elevation of 5500 feet is 9.90 HP loss.


KTM 350 55bhp -9.08 = 45.92bhp

[i]Your BHP loss computed from your BHP of 55 at sea level and Elevation of 5500 feet is 9.08 HP loss.[/i]
panic revver wrote:
Wow. Didn't think the loss would be that much.
It does make a big difference.I rode Lakewood and many other tracks in Co for a couple years and had to trade my 250f for a 450 just to have some power.. When i moved to Az I ditched the 450 because it was a rocketship at near sea level and was way more than I needed anymore.
Racer111
Profile picture for user Racer111
Posts
2767
Joined
5/23/2009
Location
Concord, NC US
Racer111 6/19/2010 5:09am
6/19/2010 5:09am
Torco1 wrote:
I think you're fighting a losing battle on this one Racer. Most people that are arguing with you dont get the point you were making in...
I think you're fighting a losing battle on this one Racer. Most people that are arguing with you dont get the point you were making in your first post.
I think you are right!! Wink
fast willy
Profile picture for user fast willy
Posts
162
Joined
1/5/2007
Location
Newark, DE US
fast willy 6/19/2010 6:20am
6/19/2010 6:20am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 11:28pm
scooter5002 wrote:
Hey fast willy. Don't sugar coat it, tell us what you really think! Wow! That must be from living too close to Jersey. You know, the...
Hey fast willy. Don't sugar coat it, tell us what you really think! Wow! That must be from living too close to Jersey. You know, the Sopranos and all. That was an amazing documentary series, wasn't it? What was that, about a 6 or 8 year run? And all that killing and shit. How did they film that and no one ever got arrested?
yeah, my bad. Thats what happens when someone else has access to a computer thet should't be on. Sorry for the post & I will definetly keep my computer un accessable from others in the future.
scooter5002
Profile picture for user scooter5002
Posts
4761
Joined
6/6/2010
Location
Nanton Alberta CA
scooter5002 6/19/2010 6:34am
6/19/2010 6:34am
Lol I see you edited it. To be honest, I laughed my ass off when I read that. You just have to have a sense of humour. Maybe someone was offended by that. I certainly wasn't. It wasn't like you went all BobbyM on his ass! Nothing wrong with a little patriotism. Even if it " wasn't you".
*
Profile picture for user *
Posts
696
Joined
4/18/2010
Location
TK
* 6/19/2010 8:57am
6/19/2010 8:57am
Who the fuck uses the word, "Kudos" anymore?

Racer111
Profile picture for user Racer111
Posts
2767
Joined
5/23/2009
Location
Concord, NC US
Racer111 6/19/2010 3:05pm
6/19/2010 3:05pm
* wrote:
Who the fuck uses the word, "Kudos" anymore?

A lot of people!

Post a reply to: Kudos, Concerns and thanks for KTM!!