Ktm/Husky Hp

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11/19/2017 12:28 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/19/2017 12:28 PM

So every year we get pretty detailed break downs of what each manufacturer has updated on their bike and what those changes will do to add hp. We saw with the yamaha when they changed the engine layout how they have the ram air, wrap around exhaust ...etc. Then with the honda we have full engine pictures like on the new 250 showing the downdraft intake, twin exhausts, twin cams, two intake/exhaust ports. I feel like since KTM hasn't really gone in any crazy new direction that we haven't gotten as detailed explanations of what is going on inside these engines to create so much hp. They use the old school dohc, standard exhaust/intake layouts on the 250 and sohc on the 450. How are they making so much more horsepower than everybody else while using the old school engine layouts. The new honda 250 is making way less hp and tq than every single other bike like 5 less the whole power curve until 10k rpm then it revs higher than all of them and pulls power longer.

The KTM/Husky on both their 250's and 450's are making way more horsepower than all other brands and they use the old school layouts with no downdraft, ram air, twin exhaust...none of that. They use the old school engine layouts like the Suzuki and Kawi. What is going on inside these engines to make them so much more powerful? I feel like it has not been explained as much in detail as the others so I really don't understand what their doing in there to gain all this hp. Can someone help me out and let me know what they're doing? KTM, Husky, Kawi, and Suzuki are all essentially using the same engine layouts apart from the Kawi/Suzuki having DOHC on their 450 models. Anyone? This has interested me for a while and I was very surprised when looking at the dyno's of the new 250s how with all the changes how much less hp the honda makes than every other bike until 10k rpm with the downdraft and twin exhausts. The KTM/Husky have used the same engine layouts the whole time along with what all of the other bikes all had at one point but yet they make by far the most hp, I don't get what their doing to get this and why other brands can't keep up although they have all had this same engine layout at one point or another or still do. Thanks.

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11/19/2017 1:12 PM

Oh this is a Lindsay question for sure!

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11/19/2017 1:14 PM

They tightened the sprocket bolts bro!

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11/19/2017 1:16 PM

I'm sure you'll get lots of knowledgeable replies. I know part of the equation is in the valve train design (finger followers instead of buckets).

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Motocross....a once in a lifetime experience....every weekend.

11/19/2017 1:18 PM

Finger followers, and the 250 is a screamer, (14,000 rpm) that's where it's power is.

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11/19/2017 1:25 PM

Doesn't the Crf250r have that as well though? It makes 5 less hp than every bike until 10k rpm.

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11/19/2017 1:30 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/19/2017 1:53 PM

drt410 wrote:

Doesn't the Crf250r have that as well though? It makes 5 less hp than every bike until 10k rpm.

Yep. I have to say that the Honda curve is interesting. But i'm sure you get got more power to the mid without sacrificing the peak HP with a few hours at a dyno?

Photo

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11/19/2017 1:41 PM

Definitely going to be a bike that needs to be revved to the moon and kept there. If you stay in the mid 10's to 14 your going to be ripping if you try to lug this bike it looks like its not going to reward you at all. Its also interesting to note that the yamaha has tell hp through the entire power band than the ktm and husky although most riders feel the KTM and Husky need to be kept at very high rpm to be ridden hard while most people think the yamaha has the best low mid and top. Must be the torque numbers.

Anyways back to the question about the KTM/Husky engines someone has to know why with standard engine setups that we haven't heard about any ground breaking differences implemented yet they consistently make the most power of any bike year after year.

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11/19/2017 2:07 PM

The KTM has the best factory cylinder head. Many "head Porter's" hurt the power by porting them.

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Race Bike: 2018 KTM 350SXF

Other Bikes: 1985 CR80R, 1990 CR250R, 1998 PW80, Specialized Fuse Comp 29.

Sold: 2016 YZ250F, 2012 CRF250R

11/19/2017 2:12 PM

drt410 wrote:

Definitely going to be a bike that needs to be revved to the moon and kept there. If you stay in the mid 10's to 14 your going to be ripping if you try to lug this bike it looks like its not going to reward you at all. Its also interesting to note that the yamaha has tell hp through the entire power band than the ktm and husky although most riders feel the KTM and Husky need to be kept at very high rpm to be ridden hard while most people think the yamaha has the best low mid and top. Must be the torque numbers.

Anyways back to the question about the KTM/Husky engines someone has to know why with standard engine setups that we haven't heard about any ground breaking differences implemented yet they consistently make the most power of any bike year after year.

I doubt it is due to one key factor. All aspects work in conjunction to create a solid spread of power.

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Tomac and/or Anderson for 2020.....

11/19/2017 2:28 PM

drt410 wrote:

Definitely going to be a bike that needs to be revved to the moon and kept there. If you stay in the mid 10's to 14 your going to be ripping if you try to lug this bike it looks like its not going to reward you at all. Its also interesting to note that the yamaha has tell hp through the entire power band than the ktm and husky although most riders feel the KTM and Husky need to be kept at very high rpm to be ridden hard while most people think the yamaha has the best low mid and top. Must be the torque numbers.

Anyways back to the question about the KTM/Husky engines someone has to know why with standard engine setups that we haven't heard about any ground breaking differences implemented yet they consistently make the most power of any bike year after year.

I wouldn't say old school. Just developed and built to a racier spec. Quality internals allow the revs, finger follower design was class leading. They have a straight intake port.
No one talks about the TM 250f but reading snippets online, that thing is powerful. Would love to see the Dyno of that with the others on the same dyno.

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11/19/2017 2:46 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/19/2017 2:49 PM

The high revving engine helps but looking at the hp chart they make the most power for almost the entire power curve. I know the KTM has a very well designed airbox, but the Husky has a completely different airbag that is almost sealed, yet they both make almost the exact same power so its definitely the internals of the engine doing the work here. Also whoever said I was saying it was one thing I was not. I was saying that other brands have designs that we can see where the power is coming from. Yamaha with the ram air, straight intake tract, wrap around exhaust. Honda with the downdraft intake, dual exhausts, 2 intake ports and 2 exhaust ports allowing one valve per port, dohc added. The suzuki 450 changed the butterfly valve I believe its called in the intake to lay flat vs turning sideways in the flow of air- ktm is said to be doing this one the next model as seen on Musquins factory bike. The kawasaki had 2 fuel injectors one upstream one down stream. The KTM other than this valve which I just learned about on the homepage of this site I have not seen anything different per say than how engines had been built before manufacturers started going their own ways. I know that there is a lot of amazing tech in KTM engines Im just not as familiar with it as its not published or spoken about as much thats why Im asking here because they're doing something very right. They also go to show that you don't have to stray far from the standard engine layout that we've always seen with a single exhaust coming from the front and wrapping around the right side and the airbox in the back on both the 250 and 450 to make huge power.

So straight intake port, finger followers, quality internals, best factory cylinder head that does not need porting.

There has to be much more than this adding to the huge hp numbers that we see every year but this definitely is a start. Especially seeing that they don't have ram air or anything very drastic it has to be very high quality internals but Im curious about the layout of those internals creating this hp seeing that they use the standard mx engine layout especially when looking from the outside. From the outside they look basically just like the Kawi or Suzuki where the Yamaha and Honda are very noticeable that there are big differences from the other brands. I do believe the KTM also uses a bridge box piston unlike the Suzuki which gives the Suzuki an old school engine braking feel vs the newer more freewheel feel of modern 4 strokes. Just trying to get the designs of these engines figured out because there isn't a ton of info out there about why they make such big numbers. Thanks guys.

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11/19/2017 3:11 PM

A local tuner said that the ktm/hva has better maps and not so much can be found there. So that´s maybe one area where the japs are falling behind?

^^Also wierd that the TM is never included in the tests and also never benched even if they actually test it.
Having ridden the 250f I think i would be up there with the other euros in power.

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11/19/2017 3:17 PM

Rejser wrote:

A local tuner said that the ktm/hva has better maps and not so much can be found there. So that´s maybe one area where the japs are falling behind?

^^Also wierd that the TM is never included in the tests and also never benched even if they actually test it.
Having ridden the 250f I think i would be up there with the other euros in power.

Well the MOTO GP would beg the difference.

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11/19/2017 3:24 PM

The KTM, Husky, and Honda are also all SOHC which means less weight but also less tuning ability but yet they're still pumping out huge numbers so they have some type of unobtanium going on in there.

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11/19/2017 3:36 PM

Rejser wrote:

A local tuner said that the ktm/hva has better maps and not so much can be found there. So that´s maybe one area where the japs are falling behind?

^^Also wierd that the TM is never included in the tests and also never benched even if they actually test it.
Having ridden the 250f I think i would be up there with the other euros in power.

I asked for one but if we were to wait on them for Shootout, it would be nearly two months later than it already is...and this year it was really late already due to the Honda. If they could get their new model years in the US on a closer schedule to the rest, we'd gladly include them.

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11/19/2017 3:36 PM

drt410 wrote:

The KTM, Husky, and Honda are also all SOHC which means less weight but also less tuning ability but yet they're still pumping out huge numbers so they have some type of unobtanium going on in there.

On the 450s only...

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11/19/2017 3:48 PM

Big bores come stock duh

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11/19/2017 3:49 PM

drt410 wrote:

So every year we get pretty detailed break downs of what each manufacturer has updated on their bike and what those changes will do to add hp. We saw with the yamaha when they changed the engine layout how they have the ram air, wrap around exhaust ...etc. Then with the honda we have full engine pictures like on the new 250 showing the downdraft intake, twin exhausts, twin cams, two intake/exhaust ports. I feel like since KTM hasn't really gone in any crazy new direction that we haven't gotten as detailed explanations of what is going on inside these engines to create so much hp. They use the old school dohc, standard exhaust/intake layouts on the 250 and sohc on the 450. How are they making so much more horsepower than everybody else while using the old school engine layouts. The new honda 250 is making way less hp and tq than every single other bike like 5 less the whole power curve until 10k rpm then it revs higher than all of them and pulls power longer.

The KTM/Husky on both their 250's and 450's are making way more horsepower than all other brands and they use the old school layouts with no downdraft, ram air, twin exhaust...none of that. They use the old school engine layouts like the Suzuki and Kawi. What is going on inside these engines to make them so much more powerful? I feel like it has not been explained as much in detail as the others so I really don't understand what their doing in there to gain all this hp. Can someone help me out and let me know what they're doing? KTM, Husky, Kawi, and Suzuki are all essentially using the same engine layouts apart from the Kawi/Suzuki having DOHC on their 450 models. Anyone? This has interested me for a while and I was very surprised when looking at the dyno's of the new 250s how with all the changes how much less hp the honda makes than every other bike until 10k rpm with the downdraft and twin exhausts. The KTM/Husky have used the same engine layouts the whole time along with what all of the other bikes all had at one point but yet they make by far the most hp, I don't get what their doing to get this and why other brands can't keep up although they have all had this same engine layout at one point or another or still do. Thanks.

"The KTM/Husky on both their 250's and 450's are making way more horsepower than all other brands and they use the old school layouts with no downdraft, ram air, twin exhaust..." ....er have you seen the dyno numbers for the 450's, no way is KTM/Husky making 'way more HP'...although the KTM may be when the FE comes out.

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Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
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11/19/2017 6:11 PM

Well i see it this way. If you consider just horsepower its sorta tied to rpm. However torque is equally important and where the real power is. My 2013 250sxf makes a shit ton of power up high but sucks off the bottom.. Its all up high. My 2015 yz250fx does not make near that much power but in the low and mid it blows the ktm away. So if you want hp make a revver which usually means lighter cranks, shorter strokes and quality components. I you want torque though you go with more stroke, less bore, heavier crank. Compression plays a role too. Torque matters....u have to consider both.

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11/19/2017 7:08 PM

I've had 3 KTM 450's and all 3 of them really didn't come alive until they got between 10 and 15hrs on them

Having said that I think its a combination of things that make them really fast, 1 they are tighter tolerances and good quality parts so they don't break in as fast as Jap bikes

2 the bikes are light to begin with

3 its the way they put power to the ground they don't just spin the wheel they seem to really find traction and drive forward

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11/19/2017 8:15 PM

drt410 wrote:

The KTM, Husky, and Honda are also all SOHC which means less weight but also less tuning ability but yet they're still pumping out huge numbers so they have some type of unobtanium going on in there.

ML512 wrote:

On the 450s only...

next year I'll bet it's on time.

And would you do a head to head vs this years winner in Jan?

Lastly, the ktm/husky make power for a few simple reasons.

1) larger bore shorter stroke than anyone else (until this year with Honda....current ktm engine based off the 2013 largely)
2) larger bore allows larger valves. The ktm has massive valves vs the other bikes (minus new Honda) close to japense 450s. Big valves coupled with a properly sized port for the valve means more air flow potential - which ktm has a very large port
3) finger followers. These have so many benefits it's hard to list them all. But it namely allows more aggressive cam profiles with more lift and ramp rate coupled with better valve train stability up to higher rpm
3b) huge camshaft vs japenese
4) the best parts money can buy, stock. The stock piston is a piece made by CP from billet, not forged but fully machined. It runs tight clearances piston to head and valve to piston. It's relatively high compression for a stock bike...more so than the jap bikes. The rods are plain bearing, prankl rods, with German skf bearings inside.
5)awesome stock exhaust system. On the dyno it's hard to beat...especially the header. Some people bolt on various pipes and swear it's better on track...good for them. Dyno says you should Stick with oem header and maybe a slip on...
6) oem mapping is very good... but that varies to your fuel and locale...
7) tuned intake tract/bellmouth

lastly ktm has spent time minimizing viscous drag losses via design internally as much as they can. This is worth a lot of power surprisingly on some bikes.

All in all after they shortened the rod for the 15.5/16 bike and upped the compression plus slightly different cam profiles, they turned the 13 engine into what it is now.. class leading on the dyno

Yamaha has spent huge time making a motor that FEELS fast vs one that makes most hp. It's actually a classic Yamaha engineering acheivement... their yz250 was never the most hp... but always considered the best spread of hp and delivery. Their r1 cross plane is another example of chasing more than just hp...


If ktm updates the 18.5 model to what it's rumored to be... the Japanese better start doing something serious.

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