KTM's advantage in MX1 and MX2?

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8/5/2018 3:43 PM

It seems like every race I watch the KTM's pull the holeshots in the the MX1 and MX2 class. Why aren't the other manufacturers competitive like they are in the US? The advantage seems significant

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8/5/2018 3:47 PM

250 class wise, there’s only one other OEM that has a true factory level team, Honda with HRC. Even with that, I’d say their bike is a notch off of what Husky and KTM are bringing to the table. Just a quick peak at the bikes show there’s not a ton of development into the Kemea Yamaha’s and F&H Kawasaki’s. DRT Kawasaki’s are quite fast, by they struggled with reliability earlier in the season and now their main guy is out...so they don’t have a top level rider on the team.

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8/5/2018 4:14 PM

Bearing in mind that yes a bike with good power and great chassis/suspension to put power to the ground is a good reason for a holeshot....it also still relies on the riders clutch control, shift points, body position, etc ...so if you get ALL of that right (bike+rider) then yes you will holeshot.

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Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

8/5/2018 4:20 PM

Its hard to know but i thought Vlaanderen’s hrc bike looked like it was handling better and was just as fast at the Czech round. Thought it was a suprising move that Geerts made the jump from ktm to Kemea yamaha.

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8/5/2018 10:22 PM

KTM has had the fastest 250fs for like the last 10 years over in Europe. Husky is right there with the KTMs now, but every other brand is still a ways away IMO. its crazy that Kawi doesnt have a factory 250 effort. What happened to the CLS team?

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8/5/2018 11:41 PM

ML512 wrote:

250 class wise, there’s only one other OEM that has a true factory level team, Honda with HRC. Even with that, I’d say their bike is a notch off of what Husky and KTM are bringing to the table. Just a quick peak at the bikes show there’s not a ton of development into the Kemea Yamaha’s and F&H Kawasaki’s. DRT Kawasaki’s are quite fast, by they struggled with reliability earlier in the season and now their main guy is out...so they don’t have a top level rider on the team.

And 450s? Looks like the the KTM is at least a very predictable bike for starts.
TC and JH are both great starters, but it also looks like the bike allows them to start very consistently. Both rarely start outside the top 5. Even Coldenhoff pulls a holeshot here and there.

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8/6/2018 2:10 AM

ML512 wrote:

250 class wise, there’s only one other OEM that has a true factory level team, Honda with HRC. Even with that, I’d say their bike is a notch off of what Husky and KTM are bringing to the table. Just a quick peak at the bikes show there’s not a ton of development into the Kemea Yamaha’s and F&H Kawasaki’s. DRT Kawasaki’s are quite fast, by they struggled with reliability earlier in the season and now their main guy is out...so they don’t have a top level rider on the team.

#434 wrote:

And 450s? Looks like the the KTM is at least a very predictable bike for starts.
TC and JH are both great starters, but it also looks like the bike allows them to start very consistently. Both rarely start outside the top 5. Even Coldenhoff pulls a holeshot here and there.

Well, theres not 40 people charging to the first corner to begin with, that makes it a hell of a lot easier for the top tier guys.
Then when you realize that TC and Herlings makes the rest of the field look like goons, it wouldnt matter what bikes they were on.

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8/6/2018 2:29 AM

JB479 wrote:

Its hard to know but i thought Vlaanderen’s hrc bike looked like it was handling better and was just as fast at the Czech round. Thought it was a suprising move that Geerts made the jump from ktm to Kemea yamaha.

Geerts never was on a KTM factory contract. He was racing for Sakhar KTM. And Kemea Yamaha is a Belgian team so they probably also helped with this decision to go there.

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8/6/2018 2:57 AM

Well the SXF 250 & FC 250 have stock about 6 (15%) more horsepowers then the RMZ and KXF 250 (at least in 2018, don't know the 2019 numbers). Must be nice for the engine builder to start with a stock engine that allready has that advantage.

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8/6/2018 3:30 AM

Prado and Cairoli running vented plates while Jonass,Coldenhoff and Herlings were all standard, defiantly more than what meets the eye with these bikes.
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8/6/2018 3:32 AM

ML512 wrote:

250 class wise, there’s only one other OEM that has a true factory level team, Honda with HRC. Even with that, I’d say their bike is a notch off of what Husky and KTM are bringing to the table. Just a quick peak at the bikes show there’s not a ton of development into the Kemea Yamaha’s and F&H Kawasaki’s. DRT Kawasaki’s are quite fast, by they struggled with reliability earlier in the season and now their main guy is out...so they don’t have a top level rider on the team.

#434 wrote:

And 450s? Looks like the the KTM is at least a very predictable bike for starts.
TC and JH are both great starters, but it also looks like the bike allows them to start very consistently. Both rarely start outside the top 5. Even Coldenhoff pulls a holeshot here and there.

Lastander wrote:

Well, theres not 40 people charging to the first corner to begin with, that makes it a hell of a lot easier for the top tier guys.
Then when you realize that TC and Herlings makes the rest of the field look like goons, it wouldnt matter what bikes they were on.

MXGP has full gates in Europe and always 25+ at the races overseas.
And what difference does it make, if the outside gates are filled with riders that coast to the first turn.
Febvre, Gajser, Desalle Goons?? Come on, the top ten riders of MXGP are all capable

And by the way, the point of my posts was about the bike..

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8/6/2018 3:41 AM

DoubleA wrote:

Prado and Cairoli running vented plates while Jonass,Coldenhoff and Herlings were all standard, defiantly more than what meets the eye with these bikes.
Photo

Photo

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The KTM factory effort is split between the De Carli team (Prado, TC222) and the official factory team (Jonass, JH84, the Hoff). De Carli team had fun cutting the numberplates

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8/6/2018 3:49 AM

karsmakers wrote:

It seems like every race I watch the KTM's pull the holeshots in the the MX1 and MX2 class. Why aren't the other manufacturers competitive like they are in the US? The advantage seems significant

The OEMs are putting their resourses into the main dirtbike series here in the states.

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8/6/2018 4:11 AM

karsmakers wrote:

It seems like every race I watch the KTM's pull the holeshots in the the MX1 and MX2 class. Why aren't the other manufacturers competitive like they are in the US? The advantage seems significant

kb228 wrote:

The OEMs are putting their resourses into the main dirtbike series here in the states.

KTM/Husky has won the championship there too for the last 4 years.

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8/6/2018 4:58 AM

Because they own the best riders.

At a factory level it's on the rider to holeshot not the bike, not even just holeshot actually the whole fucking race.

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8/6/2018 5:07 AM

DrinkMoreWater wrote:

Because they own the best riders.

At a factory level it's on the rider to holeshot not the bike, not even just holeshot actually the whole fucking race.

DrinkToMuchKoolaid?

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8/6/2018 5:14 AM

I think Herlings would not dominate like this on a japanese bikes. KTM's are a bit better than the rest of brands in my opinion. Maybe i m wrong.

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8/6/2018 5:25 AM

My my, how far the brand has come...

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Positively, absolutely 110% obsessed with anything MOTO.

8/6/2018 7:36 AM

why wouldn't the yams in mx2 over there just do whatever Star is doing here for motors??!! The extra pull of the yam on the uphill triple at Millville with much heavier AP over A-Mart was astounding to me!!

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8/6/2018 7:50 AM

grunkster wrote:

why wouldn't the yams in mx2 over there just do whatever Star is doing here for motors??!! The extra pull of the yam on the uphill triple at Millville with much heavier AP over A-Mart was astounding to me!!

No race gas in MXGP.

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8/6/2018 7:50 AM

grunkster wrote:

why wouldn't the yams in mx2 over there just do whatever Star is doing here for motors??!! The extra pull of the yam on the uphill triple at Millville with much heavier AP over A-Mart was astounding to me!!

The Kemea team doesn’t have that kind of budget nor the access to that information.

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8/6/2018 7:52 AM

Because of economics......

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8/6/2018 7:53 AM

#434 wrote:

No race gas in MXGP.

Huh? The fuel rules are a bit different but they still have race fuel. Albeit, the US standards do allow for a bit more power from the fuel.

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8/6/2018 7:55 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/6/2018 8:05 AM

They will kill the MXGPs, I quit watching now that it isn’t a race anymore, I watch the highlights to see all the cool stuff Herlings pulled off.

It’s like watching a B Class race with a couple sand baggers in each class!

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8/6/2018 8:12 AM

grunkster wrote:

why wouldn't the yams in mx2 over there just do whatever Star is doing here for motors??!! The extra pull of the yam on the uphill triple at Millville with much heavier AP over A-Mart was astounding to me!!

#434 wrote:

No race gas in MXGP.

ML512 wrote:

Huh? The fuel rules are a bit different but they still have race fuel. Albeit, the US standards do allow for a bit more power from the fuel.

They just run premium pump gas. Max Nagl said they would just hit the local gas station for fuel when he was testing with HRC a few years back. No fancy stuff there
You said they should ban race gas to lower the cost and bring the bikes closer togehter. Or am I wrong?

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8/6/2018 8:17 AM

grunkster wrote:

why wouldn't the yams in mx2 over there just do whatever Star is doing here for motors??!! The extra pull of the yam on the uphill triple at Millville with much heavier AP over A-Mart was astounding to me!!

#434 wrote:

No race gas in MXGP.

More power to start from + full factory effort + no production rule = 26 MX2 holeshots out of 30 for a factory or Husky : Prado 19, Jonas 4, Covington 2, Olsen 1.
Lawrence and Vlaanderen have one each on Honda's, so does Watson on the Kemea Yamaha.

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8/6/2018 8:42 AM

#434 wrote:

They just run premium pump gas. Max Nagl said they would just hit the local gas station for fuel when he was testing with HRC a few years back. No fancy stuff there
You said they should ban race gas to lower the cost and bring the bikes closer togehter. Or am I wrong?

I said there should be a fuel spec with little to no additives and controlled octane levels.

Max Nagl must've been high on some race fuel fumes or talking about just practicing with it cause their race bikes most certainly have race fuels. KTM and Husky use ETS, I believe Honda is using ELF, and 114 Motorsports uses Pantera or some goofy name like that, etc...

A few teams had issues in Thailand a couple years ago when the usual batch of race fuel had additives that weren't allowed in the country and they had to swap to different blends which were detonating in the heat...the main cause of Tommy Searle's massive crash where the front forks snapped off after the bike cut out over that big triple.

For a while, US teams had to swap to their fuel spec for GPs and MXdN and it caused headaches for remapping. VP, Renegade, etc have GP spec fuel when the teams request it.

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8/6/2018 10:52 AM

ML512 wrote:

Huh? The fuel rules are a bit different but they still have race fuel. Albeit, the US standards do allow for a bit more power from the fuel.

#434 wrote:

They just run premium pump gas. Max Nagl said they would just hit the local gas station for fuel when he was testing with HRC a few years back. No fancy stuff there
You said they should ban race gas to lower the cost and bring the bikes closer togehter. Or am I wrong?

ML512 wrote:

I said there should be a fuel spec with little to no additives and controlled octane levels.

Max Nagl must've been high on some race fuel fumes or talking about just practicing with it cause their race bikes most certainly have race fuels. KTM and Husky use ETS, I believe Honda is using ELF, and 114 Motorsports uses Pantera or some goofy name like that, etc...

A few teams had issues in Thailand a couple years ago when the usual batch of race fuel had additives that weren't allowed in the country and they had to swap to different blends which were detonating in the heat...the main cause of Tommy Searle's massive crash where the front forks snapped off after the bike cut out over that big triple.

For a while, US teams had to swap to their fuel spec for GPs and MXdN and it caused headaches for remapping. VP, Renegade, etc have GP spec fuel when the teams request it.

Ok, good info as always.
It always sounded to me as if it makes quite the difference. JH84 at least mentioned it last year at the national.
Nevertheless, if a fuel supplier with the relatively open US fuel rules and a team work hand in hand they can take the engine very close to the edge and extract a lot of power, especially from a 250f. That‘s why I think they could not run the Star setup, even if they could afford it.

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