KTM publicly testing FI Two Stroke

Anonymous (not verified)
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11/30/2016 12:26pm
According to Enduro21 KTM may be testing a fuel injected two stroke at the upcoming Roof Of Africa race and appears they may have already at this years Red Bull Megawatt. We know it's coming. Wonder when it's hitting production?



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twnorton
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11/30/2016 12:33pm
I want one already.
Skidaddle
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11/30/2016 12:36pm
Not sure why the dirt bike industry is so slow. I mean 4 stroke 450F quads had EFI how many years before bikes? 4 or 5?

I'd buy another bike if Efi was an option. Been mapping 2 stroke EFI since 1992 when you actually had to re-program a chip.
Pirate421
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11/30/2016 12:37pm
I may be one of the few, who are for it now, but I'll buy one. Looks like the engine, jug and everything are the same as the current engine which should hopefully make it still easy to work on. Still no cams and valves to worry about. Just the pump and injector.
JRT812
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11/30/2016 1:01pm
I think its cool because KTM is actually making a major change to the 2 stroke platform. I hope it sells well and other companies follow

The Shop

kiwifan
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11/30/2016 1:11pm
I just wonder how much weight the DI stuff will add, and the cost that it will add to the retail price. Be interesting to see!
c0ncEpT
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11/30/2016 1:28pm
If they keep it with in $500 and 10lbs I'd buy one. He'll I'd probably buy one anyways. That's the only thing that's holding me back from going completely 2 stroke at this point. I like riding my bikes not tuning them all day (Carbs)
jj welks
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11/30/2016 1:39pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2016 1:41pm
JRT812 wrote:
I think its cool because KTM is actually making a major change to the 2 stroke platform. I hope it sells well and other companies follow
Yea now is a good time to seperate themselves from the japs (not that they haven't already)
Motofinne
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11/30/2016 1:39pm
EFI/DI will be on KTMs withing 2 years, that is my guess.

They can't register a 2017 125 for the roads here in Europe because of the emissions.
11/30/2016 1:48pm
c0ncEpT wrote:
If they keep it with in $500 and 10lbs I'd buy one. He'll I'd probably buy one anyways. That's the only thing that's holding me back...
If they keep it with in $500 and 10lbs I'd buy one. He'll I'd probably buy one anyways. That's the only thing that's holding me back from going completely 2 stroke at this point. I like riding my bikes not tuning them all day (Carbs)
I hear that a lot. I've never spent a long time tuning carbs. Even my 4 pot fcr's on the drag bike. Sure, I make changes here and there, but that never takes long, and I don't do it often.
I love carbs. I'm probably the weird one though haha.
flymoto
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11/30/2016 2:00pm
Why has is it it taking them so long. I first read about ktm introducing DI around 5 years ago now.

It's nothing new, it's been on snow mobiles for years now, why is moto so far behind?

I can't see weight or price effected dramatically
Skidaddle
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11/30/2016 2:19pm
flymoto wrote:
Why has is it it taking them so long. I first read about ktm introducing DI around 5 years ago now. It's nothing new, it's been...
Why has is it it taking them so long. I first read about ktm introducing DI around 5 years ago now.

It's nothing new, it's been on snow mobiles for years now, why is moto so far behind?

I can't see weight or price effected dramatically
26 years. 30 if you count pre-production years.
11/30/2016 2:46pm
The only thing that will separate me from my caveman tuned KX250 will be a FI 250. Whoever brings it to market first gets my money.
kott0n
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11/30/2016 3:12pm
I await with eager dollars.

I don't WANT the complexity of DI but we NEED the emissions reduction.Not messing with jets is just an added bonus. This is about being able to ride. I don't even personally care about the emissions I just know that's the 2 strokes biggest hurdle.

That's what DI brings, Commi CA CARB compliance and unfortunately this is where things are headed, not away from it.
peelout
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11/30/2016 3:18pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2016 3:18pm
interesting bro, looks like the same old sprocket bolt design
ns503
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11/30/2016 3:22pm
kiwifan wrote:
I just wonder how much weight the DI stuff will add, and the cost that it will add to the retail price. Be interesting to see!
DI? OP said FI. Big diff - so which is it? No story link, so can't read that.
kiwifan
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11/30/2016 4:00pm
kiwifan wrote:
I just wonder how much weight the DI stuff will add, and the cost that it will add to the retail price. Be interesting to see!
ns503 wrote:
DI? OP said FI. Big diff - so which is it? No story link, so can't read that.
I actually meant FI but the D key is next to the F, obviously a typo Smile
Berm
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11/30/2016 4:14pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2016 4:15pm
Skidaddle wrote:
Not sure why the dirt bike industry is so slow. I mean 4 stroke 450F quads had EFI how many years before bikes? 4 or 5...
Not sure why the dirt bike industry is so slow. I mean 4 stroke 450F quads had EFI how many years before bikes? 4 or 5?

I'd buy another bike if Efi was an option. Been mapping 2 stroke EFI since 1992 when you actually had to re-program a chip.
Suzuki - 2008 rmz450 was efi
Suzuki - 2006 ltr450 was efi (and a few pros ran carb + kicker instead)

Honda - 2009 crf450 was efi
Honda - NEVER trx450r efi

Yamaha - 2010 yz450f was efi
Yamaha - 2009 yfz450r was efi

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the above years are correct.

Now, as for DI, yes ski-doo has a great DI system with the e-tec. Yet, their 600rs is NOT DI, even though DI has been around since 2009 for ski doo and SDI has been around since 2006(?).

Long story short, it's not unusual to see carbs in racing.
kott0n
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11/30/2016 4:29pm
DI is what will allow 2 strokes to burn clean, not EFI. It's all about not sending unburnt fuel out of the exhaust.

EFI just eliminates the need for jetting. We need DI to make them viable for street use and other non closed course areas. A big one is in watercraft and eventually I see stricter laws around emissions in forest land.
JWACK
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11/30/2016 4:50pm
Skidaddle wrote:
Not sure why the dirt bike industry is so slow. I mean 4 stroke 450F quads had EFI how many years before bikes? 4 or 5...
Not sure why the dirt bike industry is so slow. I mean 4 stroke 450F quads had EFI how many years before bikes? 4 or 5?

I'd buy another bike if Efi was an option. Been mapping 2 stroke EFI since 1992 when you actually had to re-program a chip.
Berm wrote:
Suzuki - 2008 rmz450 was efi Suzuki - 2006 ltr450 was efi (and a few pros ran carb + kicker instead) Honda - 2009 crf450 was...
Suzuki - 2008 rmz450 was efi
Suzuki - 2006 ltr450 was efi (and a few pros ran carb + kicker instead)

Honda - 2009 crf450 was efi
Honda - NEVER trx450r efi

Yamaha - 2010 yz450f was efi
Yamaha - 2009 yfz450r was efi

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the above years are correct.

Now, as for DI, yes ski-doo has a great DI system with the e-tec. Yet, their 600rs is NOT DI, even though DI has been around since 2009 for ski doo and SDI has been around since 2006(?).

Long story short, it's not unusual to see carbs in racing.
Yamahas raptor 700 quad was fuel injected in 2007. So that's even worse!
Berm
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11/30/2016 4:55pm
JWACK wrote:
Yamahas raptor 700 quad was fuel injected in 2007. So that's even worse!
Not exactly apples to apples as it isn't a racing machine, but yes it did have efi then.
11/30/2016 5:07pm
kott0n wrote:
DI is what will allow 2 strokes to burn clean, not EFI. It's all about not sending unburnt fuel out of the exhaust. EFI just eliminates...
DI is what will allow 2 strokes to burn clean, not EFI. It's all about not sending unburnt fuel out of the exhaust.

EFI just eliminates the need for jetting. We need DI to make them viable for street use and other non closed course areas. A big one is in watercraft and eventually I see stricter laws around emissions in forest land.
Yup. About 30% of the chainsaws that come through my shop have catalytic converters in the mufflers. And every saw in the last 10nyears is factory tuned so lean, they're on the edge of meltdown right out of the box. It's getting tough out here for a pimp. I mean a 2 stroke.
Skidaddle
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11/30/2016 6:27pm
kott0n wrote:
DI is what will allow 2 strokes to burn clean, not EFI. It's all about not sending unburnt fuel out of the exhaust. EFI just eliminates...
DI is what will allow 2 strokes to burn clean, not EFI. It's all about not sending unburnt fuel out of the exhaust.

EFI just eliminates the need for jetting. We need DI to make them viable for street use and other non closed course areas. A big one is in watercraft and eventually I see stricter laws around emissions in forest land.
You've never see Polaris or Arctic Cats systems?

DI isn't really cleaner. You still have scavenging. Somehow Polaris and Cat have passing CARB results for 2020 standards.

For Example, The 600 E-Tec is dirtier than Polaris Cleanfire 600.

600 Etec

64g/KWhr HC

210g/KWhr CO



600 Cleanfire

60g/KWhr HC

175g/KWhr Co

gsxr6
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11/30/2016 6:29pm
And that's why they switched to tmx. Sly devils hehe
Berm
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11/30/2016 7:20pm
Skidaddle wrote:
You've never see Polaris or Arctic Cats systems? DI isn't really cleaner. You still have scavenging. Somehow Polaris and Cat have passing CARB results for 2020...
You've never see Polaris or Arctic Cats systems?

DI isn't really cleaner. You still have scavenging. Somehow Polaris and Cat have passing CARB results for 2020 standards.

For Example, The 600 E-Tec is dirtier than Polaris Cleanfire 600.

600 Etec

64g/KWhr HC

210g/KWhr CO



600 Cleanfire

60g/KWhr HC

175g/KWhr Co

Isn't the cleanfire 600 SDI? That's not a carb setup...
Also, where did you get your results from, that would be neat to see their tests.

Lastly, g/KWHr has to be multiplied by HP if you want to see if it is cleaner overall...cleanfire 600 is rated at 130hp and the 600 etec is 116-118hp (113 stated by BRP). This makes the cleanfire worse on hydrocarbons, comparable (but better) on Co. Yes the numbers as is show cleanfire is cleaner per HP produced.
Skidaddle
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11/30/2016 8:40pm
Berm wrote:
Isn't the cleanfire 600 SDI? That's not a carb setup... Also, where did you get your results from, that would be neat to see their tests...
Isn't the cleanfire 600 SDI? That's not a carb setup...
Also, where did you get your results from, that would be neat to see their tests.

Lastly, g/KWHr has to be multiplied by HP if you want to see if it is cleaner overall...cleanfire 600 is rated at 130hp and the 600 etec is 116-118hp (113 stated by BRP). This makes the cleanfire worse on hydrocarbons, comparable (but better) on Co. Yes the numbers as is show cleanfire is cleaner per HP produced.
Yes bit there has been many versions, 2 and 4 injector very similar to Bombardiers SDI and Cats C Tec.
Both of which run less than 60 lbs of pressure, compared to 500 with Etec.

Those injectors are foolproof. Ever looked at a true DI of E tec?
You have a piston, spring, etc. Shit to wear out.
And with E tec, you get NO cooling spray and first few years burndowns were plenty. I guess they have that worked out.

Cats system is really cool. Cleanfire has had many configurations depending on engine size but its always been known for being really crisp running. And you get cooling still.
KTMsc
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11/30/2016 9:15pm
One of the many reasons I still ride two strokes is simplicity.
Yes I'm old, get off my lawn!
kott0n
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11/30/2016 9:41pm
Skidaddle wrote:
You've never see Polaris or Arctic Cats systems? DI isn't really cleaner. You still have scavenging. Somehow Polaris and Cat have passing CARB results for 2020...
You've never see Polaris or Arctic Cats systems?

DI isn't really cleaner. You still have scavenging. Somehow Polaris and Cat have passing CARB results for 2020 standards.

For Example, The 600 E-Tec is dirtier than Polaris Cleanfire 600.

600 Etec

64g/KWhr HC

210g/KWhr CO



600 Cleanfire

60g/KWhr HC

175g/KWhr Co

I have actually. One of them uses Bosch injectors, I forget, which are proven in the auto industry.

This exact technology is what I'm referring to. It's already crept into PWC/boats and sleds but has't into MX bikes.

Yeah they aren't 100% clean but as you said its exceeding requirements.
JMX82
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11/30/2016 11:58pm
Found this picture from KTMtalk



12/1/2016 5:48am
Wonder why they dont have injector in the boost ports like uniflow does, for low end smoothness. Since that cr500 that had injector in inlett ran ruff on low speed. That just from what i can see may be wrong but.


stone881
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12/1/2016 6:00am
More money, more weight, more complicated, whats the real advantage for MX? I guess they will be mapable, but do the same benefits exist as w the 4s?

You could just put a Lectron or Smartcarb on now. They claim to atomize the fuel more so than an FI system and also compensate for ambient changes.

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