KTM and Off-Road

dcg141
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dcg141
Edited Date/Time 2/23/2013 6:56am
Results from the National Enduro in Ga from this past weekend. 202 riders, 51 on bikes from the big 4. 33 on Yamaha, 10 on Honda, 5 on Kaw and 3 on Suzuki. 125 riders on KTM and another 11 on Husaberg.

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nb11
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nb11 2/20/2013 5:01am
2/20/2013 5:01am
Wow. KTM definitely dominates off-road racing. I'd say the numbers were similar at a HS I did s while back.
Stickers
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Stickers 2/20/2013 5:43am
2/20/2013 5:43am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2013 5:44am
That's just the A classes. Out of 575 there were 356 ktms. Yamaha was 2nd with 83.
newmann
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newmann 2/20/2013 6:19am
2/20/2013 6:19am
More Husabergs than Honda's? LMAO at the big red machine!

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resetjet
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resetjet 2/20/2013 7:30am
2/20/2013 7:30am
You didn't mention that all on the podium were KTM/HUS !!!!! The japs have no idea what is going to happen when all these kids grow up that started on KTM. Gonna be pretty hard to compete.
hothands
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hothands 2/20/2013 8:08am
2/20/2013 8:08am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2013 8:20am
My count of brands outside of the big 5 and husaberg: 18 Gas Gas, 19 Huskies, 4 Betas, 1 TM and 1 Sherco (ridden by a family member of the Gas Gas and Sherco importer, finished second overall in Open B ).

Only 5 Suzukis and 10 Kawasakis (3 in Pro) in the whole field by my count.
Titan1
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Titan1 2/20/2013 8:43am
2/20/2013 8:43am
Its not secret that KTM dominates the off road scene. In my local desert series, though I've never counted, I'd bet half the riders are on orange. 2nd would probably be Yamaha or Honda...almost NO Suzuki's. In fact at the last H&H national results I looked at, I think there was maybe 1 Suzuki on the line.

Here is the deal with KTM...they have an MX bike (SX's), a desert bike (XC-W), a woods bike (XC)...not to mention their street legal version (the EXC)...each of those models come in a 2-stroke and a 4-stroke (with the exception of the EXC)....each are different than the others and more fine tuned to the type of riding they are designed for. All have current R&D and all are updated every year.

Look at the jap bikes? Kawasaki and Suzuki? If you want to ride off road on those, you've got to modify an MX 4-stroke. Honda and Yamaha have their off road line, but they are out dated turds (all though, the WR's this last year received some updates and were actually pretty sweet).

There is no question in my mind why there are so many KTM's.

For me? I ride a YZ450F...but only because I got a great-can't pass this up-deal on one...otherwise, I'd be on a KTM 300 XC 2-stroke.
jasonward73
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jasonward73 2/20/2013 9:33am
2/20/2013 9:33am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2013 9:34am
Last Sunday FTR Vet B.

9 entries

8 KTMs

1 Honda (Ironically enough, the Honda came in last place)

TX24
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TX24 2/20/2013 9:37am
2/20/2013 9:37am
Last bike I bought would have been a Yamaha, but it would have cost about $1,000 to make it offroad ready and I still wouldn't have had the button.
crusher773
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crusher773 2/20/2013 11:21am
2/20/2013 11:21am
Sooner or later everyone will figure it out. KTMs last twice as long as the Jap bikes and run stronger. Before long they will dominate all of dirt bike racing and the others will be going in together to try and beat them. I would never ever go back to Japanese bikes after being on KTM. The quality is night and day difference. If I'm paying 8K for a bike these days I by god want it to last.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 2/20/2013 11:39am
2/20/2013 11:39am
And KTM ain't EVEN backing off...AT ALL.
stupidnslow 2/20/2013 1:54pm
2/20/2013 1:54pm
hothands wrote:
My count of brands outside of the big 5 and husaberg: 18 Gas Gas, 19 Huskies, 4 Betas, 1 TM and 1 Sherco (ridden by a...
My count of brands outside of the big 5 and husaberg: 18 Gas Gas, 19 Huskies, 4 Betas, 1 TM and 1 Sherco (ridden by a family member of the Gas Gas and Sherco importer, finished second overall in Open B ).

Only 5 Suzukis and 10 Kawasakis (3 in Pro) in the whole field by my count.
I got the opportunity to take that Sherco for a test ride Saturday afternoon and I was actually VERY impressed with it. It's incredibly light and the motor felt a little closer to a 350 in comparison versus a Husky 310.

They're supposed to be doing some GasGas and Sherco demos at Sandlapper and RadDad. I'd highly recommend taking part in those if anyone is going to be there.

The Sherco is definitely unique but I could see them catching on in the off-road world if people give it a try.
stupidnslow 2/20/2013 2:03pm
2/20/2013 2:03pm
Titan1 wrote:
Its not secret that KTM dominates the off road scene. In my local desert series, though I've never counted, I'd bet half the riders are on...
Its not secret that KTM dominates the off road scene. In my local desert series, though I've never counted, I'd bet half the riders are on orange. 2nd would probably be Yamaha or Honda...almost NO Suzuki's. In fact at the last H&H national results I looked at, I think there was maybe 1 Suzuki on the line.

Here is the deal with KTM...they have an MX bike (SX's), a desert bike (XC-W), a woods bike (XC)...not to mention their street legal version (the EXC)...each of those models come in a 2-stroke and a 4-stroke (with the exception of the EXC)....each are different than the others and more fine tuned to the type of riding they are designed for. All have current R&D and all are updated every year.

Look at the jap bikes? Kawasaki and Suzuki? If you want to ride off road on those, you've got to modify an MX 4-stroke. Honda and Yamaha have their off road line, but they are out dated turds (all though, the WR's this last year received some updates and were actually pretty sweet).

There is no question in my mind why there are so many KTM's.

For me? I ride a YZ450F...but only because I got a great-can't pass this up-deal on one...otherwise, I'd be on a KTM 300 XC 2-stroke.
Jason Raines had a Yamaha demo at Cherokee in conjunction with Mountain Motorsports. There was a guy there with Raines that I didn't recognize but after demoing a few of the bikes, he asked me (and I heard him as several others this) what it would take to get KTM riders onto a Yamaha.

I told him straight up that it would take a lot. The YZ250 makes an awesome woods bike with the right mods but you can get a 250XC that doesn't need near as much. I told the guy that if Yamaha made an X model that was made to be an off-road RACE machine that they would probably do pretty well.

Personally though, I still wouldn't stray from the orange machine but I know some would.

Although, I will say that the updated version of the WR450 is much better. In 2011 I raced the Industry class at the Ironman GNCC on Barry Hawk's WR450 that he used that year for the helmet cam footage on RacerTV. It was good, but needed a lot to be a full-blown race machine. I rode the updated WR in the demo this past weekend and it was MUCH better. However, at best I still see it making a better dual-sport bike than anything.
Titan1
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Titan1 2/20/2013 2:33pm
2/20/2013 2:33pm
Titan1 wrote:
Its not secret that KTM dominates the off road scene. In my local desert series, though I've never counted, I'd bet half the riders are on...
Its not secret that KTM dominates the off road scene. In my local desert series, though I've never counted, I'd bet half the riders are on orange. 2nd would probably be Yamaha or Honda...almost NO Suzuki's. In fact at the last H&H national results I looked at, I think there was maybe 1 Suzuki on the line.

Here is the deal with KTM...they have an MX bike (SX's), a desert bike (XC-W), a woods bike (XC)...not to mention their street legal version (the EXC)...each of those models come in a 2-stroke and a 4-stroke (with the exception of the EXC)....each are different than the others and more fine tuned to the type of riding they are designed for. All have current R&D and all are updated every year.

Look at the jap bikes? Kawasaki and Suzuki? If you want to ride off road on those, you've got to modify an MX 4-stroke. Honda and Yamaha have their off road line, but they are out dated turds (all though, the WR's this last year received some updates and were actually pretty sweet).

There is no question in my mind why there are so many KTM's.

For me? I ride a YZ450F...but only because I got a great-can't pass this up-deal on one...otherwise, I'd be on a KTM 300 XC 2-stroke.
stupidnslow wrote:
Jason Raines had a Yamaha demo at Cherokee in conjunction with Mountain Motorsports. There was a guy there with Raines that I didn't recognize but after...
Jason Raines had a Yamaha demo at Cherokee in conjunction with Mountain Motorsports. There was a guy there with Raines that I didn't recognize but after demoing a few of the bikes, he asked me (and I heard him as several others this) what it would take to get KTM riders onto a Yamaha.

I told him straight up that it would take a lot. The YZ250 makes an awesome woods bike with the right mods but you can get a 250XC that doesn't need near as much. I told the guy that if Yamaha made an X model that was made to be an off-road RACE machine that they would probably do pretty well.

Personally though, I still wouldn't stray from the orange machine but I know some would.

Although, I will say that the updated version of the WR450 is much better. In 2011 I raced the Industry class at the Ironman GNCC on Barry Hawk's WR450 that he used that year for the helmet cam footage on RacerTV. It was good, but needed a lot to be a full-blown race machine. I rode the updated WR in the demo this past weekend and it was MUCH better. However, at best I still see it making a better dual-sport bike than anything.
I actually considered a YZ250...but the problem I ran into was that it was "basically" a 6 year old bike for not much less than the 12 KTM 250XC (or the 300XC for that matter), and after the mods it would take to make the YZ off road worthy (never mind to make it an off road race bike) they would be almost the same price...and I'd of still gone with the '12 KTM.

Yamaha could win a lot of off road riders by modernizing their YZ250, and coming out with a full on off road race bike version of it. AND/OR making their WR more of a "race" bike, than the "trail" bike that it currently is (same with Honda and their X line).

I love my YZ450-it's actually a decent off road platform...but I had to spend a lot of money to make it an off road bike (and it still doesn't have an e-start). And I wouldn't even own it, if it I didn't get such a good deal on it.

KTM is killing it in the off road world...
BAMX
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BAMX 2/20/2013 2:40pm
2/20/2013 2:40pm
That looks pretty much like the results from D37. Mostly KTM and YZ with a few Jap 450's here and there.
CrazyTed
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CrazyTed 2/20/2013 2:41pm
2/20/2013 2:41pm
The numbers were about the same at the Sumter enduro. KTM by far outnumbered everything else. I had an interesting conversation with a Honda 4stroke rider the other day. He was giving me a hard time saying the KTM/Berg parts are more expensive than his Honda parts. I asked him how often he had to rebuild his Honda and he said about every six to eight months. Now I race two series on my Berg and have raced KTM's for years. I started on my Berg in 2010 and just did the piston rings last year at about 122 hours. No other parts were even close to needing replacement. Stock valves and stock piston still in the bike. So, while some stuff may be more expensive, you don't have to replace it anywhere near as often as the Jap bikes!!!
dcg141
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dcg141 2/20/2013 3:25pm
2/20/2013 3:25pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2013 3:26pm
Titan1 wrote:
Its not secret that KTM dominates the off road scene. In my local desert series, though I've never counted, I'd bet half the riders are on...
Its not secret that KTM dominates the off road scene. In my local desert series, though I've never counted, I'd bet half the riders are on orange. 2nd would probably be Yamaha or Honda...almost NO Suzuki's. In fact at the last H&H national results I looked at, I think there was maybe 1 Suzuki on the line.

Here is the deal with KTM...they have an MX bike (SX's), a desert bike (XC-W), a woods bike (XC)...not to mention their street legal version (the EXC)...each of those models come in a 2-stroke and a 4-stroke (with the exception of the EXC)....each are different than the others and more fine tuned to the type of riding they are designed for. All have current R&D and all are updated every year.

Look at the jap bikes? Kawasaki and Suzuki? If you want to ride off road on those, you've got to modify an MX 4-stroke. Honda and Yamaha have their off road line, but they are out dated turds (all though, the WR's this last year received some updates and were actually pretty sweet).

There is no question in my mind why there are so many KTM's.

For me? I ride a YZ450F...but only because I got a great-can't pass this up-deal on one...otherwise, I'd be on a KTM 300 XC 2-stroke.
stupidnslow wrote:
Jason Raines had a Yamaha demo at Cherokee in conjunction with Mountain Motorsports. There was a guy there with Raines that I didn't recognize but after...
Jason Raines had a Yamaha demo at Cherokee in conjunction with Mountain Motorsports. There was a guy there with Raines that I didn't recognize but after demoing a few of the bikes, he asked me (and I heard him as several others this) what it would take to get KTM riders onto a Yamaha.

I told him straight up that it would take a lot. The YZ250 makes an awesome woods bike with the right mods but you can get a 250XC that doesn't need near as much. I told the guy that if Yamaha made an X model that was made to be an off-road RACE machine that they would probably do pretty well.

Personally though, I still wouldn't stray from the orange machine but I know some would.

Although, I will say that the updated version of the WR450 is much better. In 2011 I raced the Industry class at the Ironman GNCC on Barry Hawk's WR450 that he used that year for the helmet cam footage on RacerTV. It was good, but needed a lot to be a full-blown race machine. I rode the updated WR in the demo this past weekend and it was MUCH better. However, at best I still see it making a better dual-sport bike than anything.
Titan1 wrote:
I actually considered a YZ250...but the problem I ran into was that it was "basically" a 6 year old bike for not much less than the...
I actually considered a YZ250...but the problem I ran into was that it was "basically" a 6 year old bike for not much less than the 12 KTM 250XC (or the 300XC for that matter), and after the mods it would take to make the YZ off road worthy (never mind to make it an off road race bike) they would be almost the same price...and I'd of still gone with the '12 KTM.

Yamaha could win a lot of off road riders by modernizing their YZ250, and coming out with a full on off road race bike version of it. AND/OR making their WR more of a "race" bike, than the "trail" bike that it currently is (same with Honda and their X line).

I love my YZ450-it's actually a decent off road platform...but I had to spend a lot of money to make it an off road bike (and it still doesn't have an e-start). And I wouldn't even own it, if it I didn't get such a good deal on it.

KTM is killing it in the off road world...
The thing is the YZ would need a major overhaul now. It would need a six speed and e-start and a bigger tank to make a real dent in KTM sales. 10-15 years ago the big 4 were selling alot of 2 stroke 250's to off-road riders, in fact probably the bulk of the sales were to off-road guys. Now I am seeing the last of those holdouts slowly replacing those units with KTM's or Bergs. The Yamaha guys are the last of the breed since YZ's are still available but even they see the writing on the wall and are converting also. Kawasaki and Suzuki have officially given up on off-road and as you can see thier sales are showing that decision. My biggest competition for off-road sales are used KTM's. So much so that I have tired to trade or even buy some off craigslist. They are hard to find and by and large are going for retail pretty easily. There is a "Powerhouse" Honda dealer about 20 miles from us and they have one 450 X in stock. I have over 30 off-road KTM's in stock and 7 Husabergs. We will sell out of 350's and 2 strokes soon.

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Titan1
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Titan1 2/20/2013 3:40pm
2/20/2013 3:40pm
stupidnslow wrote:
Jason Raines had a Yamaha demo at Cherokee in conjunction with Mountain Motorsports. There was a guy there with Raines that I didn't recognize but after...
Jason Raines had a Yamaha demo at Cherokee in conjunction with Mountain Motorsports. There was a guy there with Raines that I didn't recognize but after demoing a few of the bikes, he asked me (and I heard him as several others this) what it would take to get KTM riders onto a Yamaha.

I told him straight up that it would take a lot. The YZ250 makes an awesome woods bike with the right mods but you can get a 250XC that doesn't need near as much. I told the guy that if Yamaha made an X model that was made to be an off-road RACE machine that they would probably do pretty well.

Personally though, I still wouldn't stray from the orange machine but I know some would.

Although, I will say that the updated version of the WR450 is much better. In 2011 I raced the Industry class at the Ironman GNCC on Barry Hawk's WR450 that he used that year for the helmet cam footage on RacerTV. It was good, but needed a lot to be a full-blown race machine. I rode the updated WR in the demo this past weekend and it was MUCH better. However, at best I still see it making a better dual-sport bike than anything.
Titan1 wrote:
I actually considered a YZ250...but the problem I ran into was that it was "basically" a 6 year old bike for not much less than the...
I actually considered a YZ250...but the problem I ran into was that it was "basically" a 6 year old bike for not much less than the 12 KTM 250XC (or the 300XC for that matter), and after the mods it would take to make the YZ off road worthy (never mind to make it an off road race bike) they would be almost the same price...and I'd of still gone with the '12 KTM.

Yamaha could win a lot of off road riders by modernizing their YZ250, and coming out with a full on off road race bike version of it. AND/OR making their WR more of a "race" bike, than the "trail" bike that it currently is (same with Honda and their X line).

I love my YZ450-it's actually a decent off road platform...but I had to spend a lot of money to make it an off road bike (and it still doesn't have an e-start). And I wouldn't even own it, if it I didn't get such a good deal on it.

KTM is killing it in the off road world...
dcg141 wrote:
The thing is the YZ would need a major overhaul now. It would need a six speed and e-start and a bigger tank to make a...
The thing is the YZ would need a major overhaul now. It would need a six speed and e-start and a bigger tank to make a real dent in KTM sales. 10-15 years ago the big 4 were selling alot of 2 stroke 250's to off-road riders, in fact probably the bulk of the sales were to off-road guys. Now I am seeing the last of those holdouts slowly replacing those units with KTM's or Bergs. The Yamaha guys are the last of the breed since YZ's are still available but even they see the writing on the wall and are converting also. Kawasaki and Suzuki have officially given up on off-road and as you can see thier sales are showing that decision. My biggest competition for off-road sales are used KTM's. So much so that I have tired to trade or even buy some off craigslist. They are hard to find and by and large are going for retail pretty easily. There is a "Powerhouse" Honda dealer about 20 miles from us and they have one 450 X in stock. I have over 30 off-road KTM's in stock and 7 Husabergs. We will sell out of 350's and 2 strokes soon.
You are right about the YZ....and pretty much everything else in that post.
wardy
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wardy 2/20/2013 4:17pm
2/20/2013 4:17pm
I knew we were out of our element my kid and I were on 2 of those HONDA's it was a sea of orange out there!


and what was even better a boat load of smokers. not alot of turds in the place.


good time enjoyed it even though i suck at it.

13 hour drive one way.

hundreds in gas.

5.5 hours on the bike.

no triples to miss.

spent the whole weekend with the oldest son. who i even passed once!!!!


priceless.
\
MtnBoy
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MtnBoy 2/20/2013 4:36pm
2/20/2013 4:36pm
wardy wrote:
I knew we were out of our element my kid and I were on 2 of those HONDA's it was a sea of orange out there...
I knew we were out of our element my kid and I were on 2 of those HONDA's it was a sea of orange out there!


and what was even better a boat load of smokers. not alot of turds in the place.


good time enjoyed it even though i suck at it.

13 hour drive one way.

hundreds in gas.

5.5 hours on the bike.

no triples to miss.

spent the whole weekend with the oldest son. who i even passed once!!!!


priceless.
\
That trip you just took is what it is all about!
wardy
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wardy 2/20/2013 8:47pm
2/20/2013 8:47pm
oh ya i agree

here a video of the day
stupidnslow 2/20/2013 8:56pm
2/20/2013 8:56pm
wardy wrote:
oh ya i agree here a video of the day [embed]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHnrFBkanr8&feature=player_embedded[/embed]
oh ya i agree

here a video of the day
ha. The goofy guy giving the double thumbs up at 1:50 is me...
wardy
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wardy 2/20/2013 10:16pm
2/20/2013 10:16pm
you were almost 30 lines ahead we were 82. I was on the service honda 500. I would bet the only dude there on a 500 too LOL.
stupidnslow 2/20/2013 10:23pm
2/20/2013 10:23pm
Yeah, that's actually the best row I've ever had for a National Enduro. Been in the 90's and 100's several times too.

I'd almost put money on it that you were the only 500 there (well, could have been someone on a 500XCW or EXC, but that doesnt count!) I commend you for that! That had to be a handful in the tight stuff!
Ashleymx
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Ashleymx 2/21/2013 12:47am
2/21/2013 12:47am
I compared the WR400 with the KTM400EXC back in 1999 when I decided I wanted a duel purpose bike for a change and the KTM was so far ahead it wasn't even close. Seriously. The Yamaha was like a tank with so much extra heavy crap bolted on. I've only bought KTM motocross bikes ever since too. Funny how its taken so long for most to catch on.
TX24
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TX24 2/21/2013 6:07am
2/21/2013 6:07am
At this point if the big four ever want to get back to good sales in off road, it's going to take time and a lot of money. I hope they don't start giving up.
Brtp4
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Brtp4 2/21/2013 7:32am
2/21/2013 7:32am
Yeah, Honda as a company is so dumb. KTM sold about 110,000 bikes worldwide, while Honda only sold about 15 million.

BP
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PaleBlue 2/21/2013 7:45am
2/21/2013 7:45am Edited Date/Time 2/21/2013 7:49am
Brtp4 wrote:
Yeah, Honda as a company is so dumb. KTM sold about 110,000 bikes worldwide, while Honda only sold about 15 million.

BP
Whilst that is undoubtably true, unfortunately Honda have the same mindset that the 'all conquering' British manufacturers of the sixties had. No doubt the end results will be similar...............

It's worth noting that, here in Britain, at amatuer level, KTM sell more MX bikes than the rest combined and 95% of the kid's bikes.
Brtp4
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Brtp4 2/21/2013 8:01am
2/21/2013 8:01am
PaleBlue wrote:
Whilst that is undoubtably true, unfortunately Honda have the same mindset that the 'all conquering' British manufacturers of the sixties had. No doubt the end results...
Whilst that is undoubtably true, unfortunately Honda have the same mindset that the 'all conquering' British manufacturers of the sixties had. No doubt the end results will be similar...............

It's worth noting that, here in Britain, at amatuer level, KTM sell more MX bikes than the rest combined and 95% of the kid's bikes.
Honda has no similarities to the Brit bike brands from that era.

I love the sport and industry as much as anyone. But folks here are waaaaaayyyyyyyy off base in the importance of the US market. The US market is only slightly relevant at this moment, emerging markets like South America and SE Asia are where the business likes. Honda - and KTM - know this. They are not ignoring the US market, but not investing in more bikes for the existing customer base. As much as that makes people go all internet spastic, it is a very smart decision.

Remember, these companies are trying to be, need to be, GLOBAL brands. Worldwide motorcycle sales are about 44 MILLION. The US market in TOTAL - Dirt bikes, sport bikes, Harley's, etc - is about 650,000. About 1.4%.

BP

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