KTM Statement Regarding Broc Tickle

Adam43
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5/16/2018 7:57am
The compound that Broc tested positive for is not common, not obvious, detectable for a short time, and is determined to be beneficial in amounts higher than the allotted levels.

Does this point to the sophistication of a PED regimen, or the absence of one?
APLMAN99
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5/16/2018 12:40pm
TXDirt wrote:
I'm not suggesting this at all, but hypothetically speaking what if Aldon used Broc as a test case for a new formula? Perhaps he wanted to...
I'm not suggesting this at all, but hypothetically speaking what if Aldon used Broc as a test case for a new formula? Perhaps he wanted to see the "shelf life" in the system. Or, what if Aldon had a slip up and accidentally gave something to Broc he thought was clean but turned out to be dirty.

My point being, if Aldon at all makes one mistake, he could have the entire KTM/Husky team banned. In my field of work we call that a single point of failure and that is never a good thing. Think of it like an upside down pyramid. That one little brick at the bottom is holding up everything. If that brick fails, down goes the entire pyramid. That would be a terrible design flaw.

It's very similar here with Aldon being that tiny brick at the bottom. Hope for KTM's sake he never makes a mistake because that could crash and burn the entire race team.
Aldon wouldn't need to use Tickle as a "test case". He could ship samples from every one of his riders to the Red Bull Diagnostics and Training Center for testing that is probably at least as advanced as anything available.

Remember, the guy who runs that thing was hired by Red Bull AFTER being found guilty of doping athletes without their knowledge...........
TXDirt
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5/16/2018 1:19pm Edited Date/Time 5/16/2018 1:20pm
TXDirt wrote:
I'm not suggesting this at all, but hypothetically speaking what if Aldon used Broc as a test case for a new formula? Perhaps he wanted to...
I'm not suggesting this at all, but hypothetically speaking what if Aldon used Broc as a test case for a new formula? Perhaps he wanted to see the "shelf life" in the system. Or, what if Aldon had a slip up and accidentally gave something to Broc he thought was clean but turned out to be dirty.

My point being, if Aldon at all makes one mistake, he could have the entire KTM/Husky team banned. In my field of work we call that a single point of failure and that is never a good thing. Think of it like an upside down pyramid. That one little brick at the bottom is holding up everything. If that brick fails, down goes the entire pyramid. That would be a terrible design flaw.

It's very similar here with Aldon being that tiny brick at the bottom. Hope for KTM's sake he never makes a mistake because that could crash and burn the entire race team.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Aldon wouldn't need to use Tickle as a "test case". He could ship samples from every one of his riders to the Red Bull Diagnostics and...
Aldon wouldn't need to use Tickle as a "test case". He could ship samples from every one of his riders to the Red Bull Diagnostics and Training Center for testing that is probably at least as advanced as anything available.

Remember, the guy who runs that thing was hired by Red Bull AFTER being found guilty of doping athletes without their knowledge...........
Agree with you, just using that as an example. Perhaps Aldon was interested in running his own dark lab so to speak and he needed to have someone test new supplements (without their knowledge possibly).

You can really go down a big rabbit hole with all kinds of theories, probably none of which are really true.

But again, having a single person in charge of the health and nutrition of the entire team is not without it's possible huge huge problems.

If I were Aldon (and maybe he already does this), I would only advise on nutrition plans that included real foods. I would not at all advise the riders on anything related to pills, vitamins, work out proteins, vita shakes, etc etc.

The riders need to be responsible for what they put in their bodies.

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cwtoyota
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5/16/2018 3:01pm
tprice07 wrote:
Coupe things here: 1. Malcolm isn't going to be filling that spot. 2. KTM's action was premature. Broc was provisionally suspended. No one is/was associating Broc's...
Coupe things here:

1. Malcolm isn't going to be filling that spot.

2. KTM's action was premature. Broc was provisionally suspended. No one is/was associating Broc's use of a banned substance with KTM, other than the possibility of their relationship with Aldon Baker.

3. Broc is handling this the right way in my opinion. Holding the FIM and WADA accountable in both transparency and timeliness. Utilizing an attorney in any social media communication regarding the case.

Broc has a long journey ahead of him. FIM/WADA isn't gunning after Broc Tickle. They don't give a shit who he is. They go strictly by the test results they receive. Broc's attorney appears to be asking for transparency in the case. The process of administering the test, labeling the sample, sealing the sample, transporting the sample, the margin of error in the test, the accuracy/history of the labs that tested it. I think he has every right to know that kind of information.

Most of this is conjecture so I apologize but I truly believe this is going to get very ugly. He was very aware of the clause in his contract. He had to be aware that the risk was not worth the minimal gain. For whatever reason I trust Broc. I'm not going to defame Aldon but I think he is very aware of what he is doing. I think he is willing to run the line for optimal performance within the parameters provided. My honest, worthless opinion is that someone (Broc or Aldon) knew exactly what he was ingesting, but timed it wrong. They took it too late resulting in the substance remaining in his body longer than it was supposed to.
I think you're right with your three points and the first of your two paragraphs.

I won't speculate on the last statement you made.

I've been thinking about something that these factory teams, or maybe even some of the elite riders might consider:

If I were a top level team manager, or elite rider, I would hire an attorney to draft a contract with an independent laboratory to collect, analyze and store samples from each racing event. The lab would have exclusive control over those physical samples.

A team with this service in place is protected from the rider legally and in reputation while the rider is protected from any potential mistakes made by the FIM.

In this case it seems more likely that Broc is either guilty by accident, or guilty by malice and I suspect none of us regular folks will ever know the facts.
slipdog
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5/16/2018 5:41pm
This entire thread is TLDR.
mxb2
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5/16/2018 8:13pm
Firefly47 wrote:
Link to GoFundMe for Broc?
I hope you are kidding.
David934
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5/18/2018 12:24am
-MAVERICK- wrote:
You're right.

Davi's locker. Found something illegal, got his walking papers.
We know some details about Davi's locker?
zehn
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5/18/2018 2:07am
David934 wrote:
We know some details about Davi's locker?
Yep, the details came out about it. I can’t remember off the top of my head but ML does. Something similar to albuterol, maybe?
-MAVERICK-
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5/18/2018 3:19am
-MAVERICK- wrote:
You're right.

Davi's locker. Found something illegal, got his walking papers.
David934 wrote:
We know some details about Davi's locker?
If I remember correctly Ketorolac/Toradol was found in his locker and he didn't have a prescription for it.
DonM
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5/18/2018 4:48am
Lot's of uninformed assumptions made while wearing tinfoil hats in this thread...lots of stupid...
rstaichi
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5/18/2018 4:59am
KennyT wrote:
Any manufacturer would do the same thing. Don’t blame KTM for this
He’s in employee not there kid...what would your expect? It’s business.
5/18/2018 10:11pm
logan_140 wrote:
So what would Ktm be doing if it had been dungey? I️ ride ktms but damn this kind of pisses me off! They should be standing...
So what would Ktm be doing if it had been dungey? I️ ride ktms but damn this kind of pisses me off! They should be standing behind broc 100% and fight wada! What a shit situation
so you’re saying you know that broc didn’t intentionally cheat? what makes you think someone that cheated would admit it? do you think it’s below broc to cheat because you know him so well? you don’t think broc cheating is a possibility?

don’t forget what broc was supposed to be with the ktm team and aldon baker. he was expected to be better and his results were worse then suzuki. sounds to me like motive to cheat. can you imagine the pressure to live up to expectations on the best team and best trainer and failing? and yes, he was failing. he couldn’t even podium with all the riders missing with injury. he was looking for an edge.

the bottom line is that substance was in his body and it’s not something that accidentally gets there. i’m gonna say what a lot of people aren’t saying. broc tickle cheated and he got caught. it’s really that simple.

what’s crazier then ktm firing him is you supporting a rider that has illegal performance enhancing drugs in his split screen urine sample.

good people make bad decisions
enketchum
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5/18/2018 10:50pm
It didn't mention anything about Broc paying back his salary. Is that going to happen? It's in his contract
5/18/2018 11:07pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
Aldon wouldn't need to use Tickle as a "test case". He could ship samples from every one of his riders to the Red Bull Diagnostics and...
Aldon wouldn't need to use Tickle as a "test case". He could ship samples from every one of his riders to the Red Bull Diagnostics and Training Center for testing that is probably at least as advanced as anything available.

Remember, the guy who runs that thing was hired by Red Bull AFTER being found guilty of doping athletes without their knowledge...........
That Icarus documentary made it sound MUCH more complicated than that to get private testing done to the standards WADA uses.

Hence why they had to get Grigory Rodchenkov (Russian WADA lab director) to cooperate with them.
APLMAN99
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5/19/2018 11:04am
APLMAN99 wrote:
Aldon wouldn't need to use Tickle as a "test case". He could ship samples from every one of his riders to the Red Bull Diagnostics and...
Aldon wouldn't need to use Tickle as a "test case". He could ship samples from every one of his riders to the Red Bull Diagnostics and Training Center for testing that is probably at least as advanced as anything available.

Remember, the guy who runs that thing was hired by Red Bull AFTER being found guilty of doping athletes without their knowledge...........
That Icarus documentary made it sound MUCH more complicated than that to get private testing done to the standards WADA uses. Hence why they had to...
That Icarus documentary made it sound MUCH more complicated than that to get private testing done to the standards WADA uses.

Hence why they had to get Grigory Rodchenkov (Russian WADA lab director) to cooperate with them.
Red Bull likely has MORE resources than WADA, a Pro Tour team not so much. WADA uses testing laboratories, that aren't light years advanced over everything else on the planet. If they had "secretive methods" of testing, every ruling would be challenged as nonconforming.

That being said, the testing level is far more detailed and probing than you would normally get by turning in a sample to Quest Diagnostics and asking for a basic panel. And I'm sure that the Red Bull Diagnostics and Training Center is not farming out their testing to a commercial laboratory, they are doing it in their own state of the art facility, at state of the art levels of detection, and sharing the results with absolutely no one outside their organization......
TXDirt
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5/19/2018 11:14am
APLMAN99 wrote:
Aldon wouldn't need to use Tickle as a "test case". He could ship samples from every one of his riders to the Red Bull Diagnostics and...
Aldon wouldn't need to use Tickle as a "test case". He could ship samples from every one of his riders to the Red Bull Diagnostics and Training Center for testing that is probably at least as advanced as anything available.

Remember, the guy who runs that thing was hired by Red Bull AFTER being found guilty of doping athletes without their knowledge...........
That Icarus documentary made it sound MUCH more complicated than that to get private testing done to the standards WADA uses. Hence why they had to...
That Icarus documentary made it sound MUCH more complicated than that to get private testing done to the standards WADA uses.

Hence why they had to get Grigory Rodchenkov (Russian WADA lab director) to cooperate with them.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Red Bull likely has MORE resources than WADA, a Pro Tour team not so much. WADA uses testing laboratories, that aren't light years advanced over everything...
Red Bull likely has MORE resources than WADA, a Pro Tour team not so much. WADA uses testing laboratories, that aren't light years advanced over everything else on the planet. If they had "secretive methods" of testing, every ruling would be challenged as nonconforming.

That being said, the testing level is far more detailed and probing than you would normally get by turning in a sample to Quest Diagnostics and asking for a basic panel. And I'm sure that the Red Bull Diagnostics and Training Center is not farming out their testing to a commercial laboratory, they are doing it in their own state of the art facility, at state of the art levels of detection, and sharing the results with absolutely no one outside their organization......
You might be right but I was thinking to myself why would RedBull have their own testing labs? That doesn't make a ton of business sense. RedBull is in the business of selling an energy drink. They are not in the lab business. It's likely they do in fact outsource their testing to a 3rd party who actually knows what they are doing and has the equipment to perform a myriad of different tests.

Would you think a testing lab would start making their own energy drinks? No.

Just my own two cents.
APLMAN99
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5/19/2018 12:15pm
TXDirt wrote:
You might be right but I was thinking to myself why would RedBull have their own testing labs? That doesn't make a ton of business sense...
You might be right but I was thinking to myself why would RedBull have their own testing labs? That doesn't make a ton of business sense. RedBull is in the business of selling an energy drink. They are not in the lab business. It's likely they do in fact outsource their testing to a 3rd party who actually knows what they are doing and has the equipment to perform a myriad of different tests.

Would you think a testing lab would start making their own energy drinks? No.

Just my own two cents.
“Why” they would have their own testing labs doesn’t really matter. They do. They hired a man convicted of authorizing the doping of teen athletes without their knowledge to run it. Why would they buy professional soccer teams? Why would they own F1 teams? Those don’t have to make sense, they are simply facts. Their Diagnostic and Training Center isn’t a secret, they’ve had it for a long time.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/muscling-roid-doc-news-visits-…
MX-LIFE.
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5/19/2018 1:10pm
I wonder if he had to pay back his salary. On pulp they were talking about a years salary pay back clause in the KTM team...
I wonder if he had to pay back his salary. On pulp they were talking about a years salary pay back clause in the KTM team member contracts.
Aldon Baker should pay back that money for Broc!
5/19/2018 2:10pm
watch all this shit unfold like lance and us postal team.
No, because Lance's moblike tactics and ruining the careers and lives of those around him-doesnt happen in any other sport - even other sports with cheaters.
milliebays
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5/19/2018 7:43pm
watch all this shit unfold like lance and us postal team.
No, because Lance's moblike tactics and ruining the careers and lives of those around him-doesnt happen in any other sport - even other sports with cheaters.
i think he means watch it uncover systematic doping and a similar Omerta; highly unlikely of course.
milliebays
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5/19/2018 7:55pm
gnarwhip wrote:
^^ "aromatic tea made from coca leaves" Blow tea. That's a new one lol. Booger sugar tea gets you suspended? Shocker
roninho wrote:
There are so many great excuses from dopers to be found. * Gilberto Simoni after testing positive for coke: My dentist used coke to relieve the...
There are so many great excuses from dopers to be found.

* Gilberto Simoni after testing positive for coke: My dentist used coke to relieve the pain. Later he changed the story to i got candies from my aunt in Bolivia made from coke leaves
* Tyler Hamilton: I tested positive for blood doping because i have the embryo of my twin brother in my body
* Raymond Rumsas: (after his wife was caught with a car full of epo, growth hormone, testoterno and blood doping enough for a hospital) The medicine is for my mother in law
* Alex Vinokourov: I tested postive for blood doping because i fell with my bike yesterday and that cause all my blood to rush to my legs causing strange values
* Franck VDB: The medicine (epo and growth hormone) is for my dog
* Floyd Landis: I tested positive because i had to much Whiskey last night
* Bjorn Leukemans: i tested positive for increased testosterone values because the testers where at my door when i was just ... my wife, and that caused strange values. I like the response from the doping agency: that does not explain why you tested positive for syntethic testosteron
* Adri van der poel after testing positive for strychnine (which is poison). His excuse was we dope our competition pigeons and i ate one for lunch
* Mauro Santambrogio said he tested positive because he took medicine for erectile dysfunction
Don't forget Froomedawg: "I tested positive for double the legal limit of salbutamol because i was dehydrated"

never mind it's impossible to inhale that much anyway and there was no tue for oral salbut.
milliebays
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5/19/2018 7:58pm
and why TF haven't we heard "i'm using approved supplements"??

TO ME, this is the most telling. he really has no defense here. this isn't tainted meat stuff.

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