KTM/HUSKY teams all using a new triple clamp ?

Luxon MX
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1/4/2020 10:34am
colintrax wrote:
Breaking news, triple clamps look like triple clamps :lol: Luxon if you have more material on comparing the different clamps I'd be interesting in reading it...
Breaking news, triple clamps look like triple clamps Grinning
Luxon if you have more material on comparing the different clamps I'd be interesting in reading it. Assuming you dont mind posting Cool
I've got a couple blog posts planned that focus on both the differences I mentioned in my last post. They'll be full of lots of nerdy tech stuff - analysis plots, physical testing, etc. I've just got to find the time to write them up!
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jaun
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11/14/2021 12:22am
Sorry to bump and old post but I see all the factory guys have gone back to a solid clamp, does anyone know why.

is it something specific to the 52mm forks or is it with all forms that makes them gravitate to the solid clamp.

I notice they have a line sticker or something to make them look split.
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11/14/2021 11:19am
Guys, if you haven't noticed, ALL the MXGP KTM RB bikes have run solid clamps all year.... look closely, they run a piece of small tape to make it look like they're split. The Huskies are the same. There's a real reason, they won't run the split clamps any longer. Yamaha do it too. Gautier Paulin refused to run them in 2020 too. .
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KONG
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11/14/2021 12:12pm
I'd rather know the real reason why, lol...
Too fragile? Broke some?

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rohleder644
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11/14/2021 12:20pm
My curiosity has been piqued. I’m in the market for some pretty blue clamps and was going to end up with a split set. No reason other than looks. But if they’re an inferior product, I’d love to know.
Luxon MX
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11/14/2021 12:36pm
The KTM/Husky/GasGas factory teams are all required to run WP suspension and triple clamps. And since WP is trying to sell their factory edition triple clamps, they’re trying to make the more traditional solid clamps that they’re actually running look like split clamps. The Euro guys do a pretty good job of it with a strip masked from anodize. It’s only obvious up close when you can see that there’s no depth to it and that the color of the raw aluminum is different from the anodized fork tube behind it. The US teams do a laughably bad job of hiding it with a sticker that doesn’t match the anodize and just looks silly. Not sure why they didn’t get on board with the anodize masking…

The main reason we’re seeing the factory KTM/Husky/GasGas guys switch back to non-split clamps is rider preference in the steering precision and feel. Note that not all the riders are switching back to non-split clamps. There are factory guys and top pros still running the WP split clamps.

A lot of top riders prefer a solid feel at the bars, and you’ll see many of them running solid bar mounts instead of rubber bar mounts for this same reason. This preference is driven from the desire for a more connected feel with the front wheel and just something similar to what they’re used to riding before the split clamps came out. The WP split clamp has a unique design to it (not just the split), but I’m not sure what really drove that design choice. It’s actually slightly stiffer in all directions than the stock KTM solid clamps (I doubt that’s what the factory is currently running), but the balance of stiffness is off in our opinion. And that opinion is backed up with lots of rider testing and the fact the factory guys have mostly switched back. The split adds more flex longitudinally (front to back), but it’s also adding more, undesirable, flex in other directions. Most notably of those is torsion (turning), which gives the front end a vague feel that the riders don’t like as it’s less predictable and they don’t feel connected to the front wheel.

To properly make a split clamp work, the design of the rest of the clamp has to stiffen up the other directions to eliminate that vague steering feel while maintaining a more forgiving ride longitudinally. That’s why I question what drove the design of the WP clamps as it’s non-traditional, but it’s not really stiffening up the other directions. We’ve reverse engineered a lot of clamps now, including the WP clamps, so we know the stiffness numbers in the various directions. And there’s a very good reason why our triple clamps look nothing like what’s on the market otherwise. We didn’t just copy something else and run a slitting saw through it; all of our clamps are optimized for a proper stiffness balance while maintaining strength and low weight. It’s too bad the factory guys are locked into WP and can’t run our stuff!
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KONG
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11/14/2021 1:50pm Edited Date/Time 11/14/2021 1:51pm
Thanks for the insight.
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4DAIVIPAI2K5
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11/14/2021 6:49pm Edited Date/Time 11/14/2021 6:50pm
Luxon MX wrote:
The KTM/Husky/GasGas factory teams are all required to run WP suspension and triple clamps. And since WP is trying to sell their factory edition triple clamps...
The KTM/Husky/GasGas factory teams are all required to run WP suspension and triple clamps. And since WP is trying to sell their factory edition triple clamps, they’re trying to make the more traditional solid clamps that they’re actually running look like split clamps. The Euro guys do a pretty good job of it with a strip masked from anodize. It’s only obvious up close when you can see that there’s no depth to it and that the color of the raw aluminum is different from the anodized fork tube behind it. The US teams do a laughably bad job of hiding it with a sticker that doesn’t match the anodize and just looks silly. Not sure why they didn’t get on board with the anodize masking…

The main reason we’re seeing the factory KTM/Husky/GasGas guys switch back to non-split clamps is rider preference in the steering precision and feel. Note that not all the riders are switching back to non-split clamps. There are factory guys and top pros still running the WP split clamps.

A lot of top riders prefer a solid feel at the bars, and you’ll see many of them running solid bar mounts instead of rubber bar mounts for this same reason. This preference is driven from the desire for a more connected feel with the front wheel and just something similar to what they’re used to riding before the split clamps came out. The WP split clamp has a unique design to it (not just the split), but I’m not sure what really drove that design choice. It’s actually slightly stiffer in all directions than the stock KTM solid clamps (I doubt that’s what the factory is currently running), but the balance of stiffness is off in our opinion. And that opinion is backed up with lots of rider testing and the fact the factory guys have mostly switched back. The split adds more flex longitudinally (front to back), but it’s also adding more, undesirable, flex in other directions. Most notably of those is torsion (turning), which gives the front end a vague feel that the riders don’t like as it’s less predictable and they don’t feel connected to the front wheel.

To properly make a split clamp work, the design of the rest of the clamp has to stiffen up the other directions to eliminate that vague steering feel while maintaining a more forgiving ride longitudinally. That’s why I question what drove the design of the WP clamps as it’s non-traditional, but it’s not really stiffening up the other directions. We’ve reverse engineered a lot of clamps now, including the WP clamps, so we know the stiffness numbers in the various directions. And there’s a very good reason why our triple clamps look nothing like what’s on the market otherwise. We didn’t just copy something else and run a slitting saw through it; all of our clamps are optimized for a proper stiffness balance while maintaining strength and low weight. It’s too bad the factory guys are locked into WP and can’t run our stuff!
Always enjoy your technical post
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nskerb
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11/14/2021 7:19pm
I like that you take the time to explain this type of stuff Luxon. I’m not an engineer or anything but the technical aspects of bike setup is really interesting to me.

The whole thing about faking the split clamps with a sticker just seems super cheesy to me, bad looks for the KTM group. I’d rather just see guys run whatever they want without getting directives to cover up or make it look like what isn’t. Nothing wrong with running stuff to individual preference and saying “we went with this because it suits me” rather than trying to hide stuff and not acknowledge anything.
6
11/14/2021 11:57pm
KONG wrote:
I'd rather know the real reason why, lol...
Too fragile? Broke some?
Yes, to put it simply. They need all the material they can. Why create a weak point? It's purely a marketing gimmick.
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luke11
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11/15/2021 4:17am
Luxon MX wrote:
The KTM/Husky/GasGas factory teams are all required to run WP suspension and triple clamps. And since WP is trying to sell their factory edition triple clamps...
The KTM/Husky/GasGas factory teams are all required to run WP suspension and triple clamps. And since WP is trying to sell their factory edition triple clamps, they’re trying to make the more traditional solid clamps that they’re actually running look like split clamps. The Euro guys do a pretty good job of it with a strip masked from anodize. It’s only obvious up close when you can see that there’s no depth to it and that the color of the raw aluminum is different from the anodized fork tube behind it. The US teams do a laughably bad job of hiding it with a sticker that doesn’t match the anodize and just looks silly. Not sure why they didn’t get on board with the anodize masking…

The main reason we’re seeing the factory KTM/Husky/GasGas guys switch back to non-split clamps is rider preference in the steering precision and feel. Note that not all the riders are switching back to non-split clamps. There are factory guys and top pros still running the WP split clamps.

A lot of top riders prefer a solid feel at the bars, and you’ll see many of them running solid bar mounts instead of rubber bar mounts for this same reason. This preference is driven from the desire for a more connected feel with the front wheel and just something similar to what they’re used to riding before the split clamps came out. The WP split clamp has a unique design to it (not just the split), but I’m not sure what really drove that design choice. It’s actually slightly stiffer in all directions than the stock KTM solid clamps (I doubt that’s what the factory is currently running), but the balance of stiffness is off in our opinion. And that opinion is backed up with lots of rider testing and the fact the factory guys have mostly switched back. The split adds more flex longitudinally (front to back), but it’s also adding more, undesirable, flex in other directions. Most notably of those is torsion (turning), which gives the front end a vague feel that the riders don’t like as it’s less predictable and they don’t feel connected to the front wheel.

To properly make a split clamp work, the design of the rest of the clamp has to stiffen up the other directions to eliminate that vague steering feel while maintaining a more forgiving ride longitudinally. That’s why I question what drove the design of the WP clamps as it’s non-traditional, but it’s not really stiffening up the other directions. We’ve reverse engineered a lot of clamps now, including the WP clamps, so we know the stiffness numbers in the various directions. And there’s a very good reason why our triple clamps look nothing like what’s on the market otherwise. We didn’t just copy something else and run a slitting saw through it; all of our clamps are optimized for a proper stiffness balance while maintaining strength and low weight. It’s too bad the factory guys are locked into WP and can’t run our stuff!
I want some of your clamps, I need an excuse to tracker to the US to save on the import tax!
11/15/2021 4:21am
Luxon MX wrote:
The KTM/Husky/GasGas factory teams are all required to run WP suspension and triple clamps. And since WP is trying to sell their factory edition triple clamps...
The KTM/Husky/GasGas factory teams are all required to run WP suspension and triple clamps. And since WP is trying to sell their factory edition triple clamps, they’re trying to make the more traditional solid clamps that they’re actually running look like split clamps. The Euro guys do a pretty good job of it with a strip masked from anodize. It’s only obvious up close when you can see that there’s no depth to it and that the color of the raw aluminum is different from the anodized fork tube behind it. The US teams do a laughably bad job of hiding it with a sticker that doesn’t match the anodize and just looks silly. Not sure why they didn’t get on board with the anodize masking…

The main reason we’re seeing the factory KTM/Husky/GasGas guys switch back to non-split clamps is rider preference in the steering precision and feel. Note that not all the riders are switching back to non-split clamps. There are factory guys and top pros still running the WP split clamps.

A lot of top riders prefer a solid feel at the bars, and you’ll see many of them running solid bar mounts instead of rubber bar mounts for this same reason. This preference is driven from the desire for a more connected feel with the front wheel and just something similar to what they’re used to riding before the split clamps came out. The WP split clamp has a unique design to it (not just the split), but I’m not sure what really drove that design choice. It’s actually slightly stiffer in all directions than the stock KTM solid clamps (I doubt that’s what the factory is currently running), but the balance of stiffness is off in our opinion. And that opinion is backed up with lots of rider testing and the fact the factory guys have mostly switched back. The split adds more flex longitudinally (front to back), but it’s also adding more, undesirable, flex in other directions. Most notably of those is torsion (turning), which gives the front end a vague feel that the riders don’t like as it’s less predictable and they don’t feel connected to the front wheel.

To properly make a split clamp work, the design of the rest of the clamp has to stiffen up the other directions to eliminate that vague steering feel while maintaining a more forgiving ride longitudinally. That’s why I question what drove the design of the WP clamps as it’s non-traditional, but it’s not really stiffening up the other directions. We’ve reverse engineered a lot of clamps now, including the WP clamps, so we know the stiffness numbers in the various directions. And there’s a very good reason why our triple clamps look nothing like what’s on the market otherwise. We didn’t just copy something else and run a slitting saw through it; all of our clamps are optimized for a proper stiffness balance while maintaining strength and low weight. It’s too bad the factory guys are locked into WP and can’t run our stuff!
Hey Billy, in response to your input, and it's GREAT you take the time...
But, I'm struggling to understand where, in the clamp area, is ANY flex, everyone talks about. I look at this, in the image. Where is flex possible... more to the point, noticeable?
First, you're on dirt. Flexible tires, big flexible suspension, rubber mounted handle bars. Rubber hand grips. Even if it was to allow for .01mm of 'flex', how would one notice this? If you adjust tire pressure 1 PSI, surely, this is going to have a greater impact?
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Snapper
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11/15/2021 7:52am
Has Donn been lending out his test bikes again 🤔
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FGR01
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11/15/2021 8:16am
Joshracing wrote:
Hey Billy, in response to your input, and it's GREAT you take the time... But, I'm struggling to understand where, in the clamp area, is ANY...
Hey Billy, in response to your input, and it's GREAT you take the time...
But, I'm struggling to understand where, in the clamp area, is ANY flex, everyone talks about. I look at this, in the image. Where is flex possible... more to the point, noticeable?
First, you're on dirt. Flexible tires, big flexible suspension, rubber mounted handle bars. Rubber hand grips. Even if it was to allow for .01mm of 'flex', how would one notice this? If you adjust tire pressure 1 PSI, surely, this is going to have a greater impact?
Uh oh... you went there. LOL

There are Vet-C riders on Vital who think they can tell the difference between 16 and 17 ft/lb of torque in their triple clamp bolts and motor mounts. Grinning
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Luxon MX
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11/15/2021 2:09pm
Joshracing wrote:
Hey Billy, in response to your input, and it's GREAT you take the time... But, I'm struggling to understand where, in the clamp area, is ANY...
Hey Billy, in response to your input, and it's GREAT you take the time...
But, I'm struggling to understand where, in the clamp area, is ANY flex, everyone talks about. I look at this, in the image. Where is flex possible... more to the point, noticeable?
First, you're on dirt. Flexible tires, big flexible suspension, rubber mounted handle bars. Rubber hand grips. Even if it was to allow for .01mm of 'flex', how would one notice this? If you adjust tire pressure 1 PSI, surely, this is going to have a greater impact?
You make good points in that every part of the bike is flexing and that the flex of some parts is going to be small in comparison to others. And some things are laughable as FGR01 points out about changing the torque of an engine mount bolt by 1 ft*lb and expecting to feel a difference. But there are many other parts on the bike that actually do make a difference.

It's important to look at what is flexing, in which direction(s), where it is on the bike, and how that affects the other parts of the bike. In the case of triple clamps, a small amount of movement at the clamps will result in a much bigger movement at the wheel because fork is acting as a big lever arm. You may be surprised at how much the clamps (and everything else) are actually flexing too.

It's not at all unusual for the axle to flex 1-2 inches (25-50mm) out of it's "nominal" position due to hard landings, large bumps, etc., many times over the course of a lap. And it's flexing less than that to varying levels all around the track. This flex comes from multiple parts - primarily the forks themselves, the triple clamps and the chassis. Making a change to any of these parts can have a significant change in the overall flex, which has a significant impact on the ride of the bike. Just as you know that the tire deformation has a similar impact on the ride. You can certainly feel a difference in 8 psi in the tires vs. 13 psi; that's a pretty drastic change. But many people can feel a difference of just 1 psi.

There will be many riders who aren't sensitive to changes and just get used to riding the bike no matter what was changed. But there are others who are super sensitive to changes and can feel the smallest difference. Most are somewhere in between. We haven't had anyone report back that our clamps don't feel any different than what they were riding before; just the opposite, actually. Most people are surprised at how much of a difference it actually makes. And that's not all coming from customers who just paid a lot of money, it's from independent testers, pro riders, etc. It really does make a big difference!
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