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Cool kid, very well spoken. He’ll figure it out.
This model was first released in 2010. Still an 8 year old platform. Damn!
On the other hand, nothing is stock on the bike Hill rides. I'm sure it's not down on horsepower in comparison to other race teams, suspension is a complete opposite of stock and the chassis is very good on those bikes. Especially for SX as it's the king of turns (sacrificing some of the high speed stability).
I don't think it's the bike.
The Shop
It's a full factory bike, lacking in power? .
Edit: Sorry squirllings, didn't see you post until after I commented.
Just pointing that part out...yes, it's way behind in the power department in stock trim.
From my understanding, the Showa technician that's involved with the 450 side built some new stuff for Hill to try this week, we'll see if a new set of hands and setup will help out this weekend.
It looks the same from the outside, most bikes don't keep the same plastic and chassis look for 9 seasons.
Also, you have no idea of what you're talking about.
Justin is a much better 450 rider and will surprise a shit ton of people when he moves up. He’s probably one of the top 5 most naturally talented riders out of both classes but injuries have held him back a bit. But wait till he hops on that 450..... just wait
I say it's a combination of rider and bike not performing. Setup looks weird, but I also have the feeling he has to work twice as hard getting over every obstacle right after a corner. I see him seatbouncing super hard, or even simply not doing the fastest rhythm. That tells me something is off with the bike, because the talent is there.
How much heavier is the Suzuki than the KTMs? how much is it down on HP?
I realize JGR have unlimited resources, but so do KTM. How do you to take the slowest and heaviest bike in stock trim and expect to compete for a championship?
A lot of people here blame the bike for Hill's piss poor performance.
Not too long ago almost everyone on Vital was stating that RMZ 450 is unrideable, heavy and slow - just like the 250 is now.
That bullshit stopped when KR won the outdoors on one of those heavy, slow bananas.
At the time Dungey made the move to KTM, the bike was supposedly a complete POS. Did you see Dunge cruising around 10th place at ANY race, because his bike was not good enough to put up a fight?
1. The problem with the bike is either the guy on top of it or the setup.
2. If the bike setup is off - it's still on the rider in my opinion.
3. Factory bikes are as far from stock as they can be. Not much point in comparing to stock specs.
A bit like TM is now, or old Husky platform. Thats where KTM was with 2012 generation.
There are some different scenarios you need to consider when you determine if a bike is shit or not:
1. The bike is shit, because it is so off. Plenty of examples in the history. Suzuki 450 2013-18 does not qualify there
2. Bike vs rider. Bike does not fit the rider. So for that specific rider, it is the bike (semantics).
3. Bike setup. Lack of testing, time or whatever. Roczen 2016 on Suzuki was shit, before he switched triple clamps and started winning. Same with Tomac 2017, setup issues.
Non of the bikes from the big vendors today qualify for the POS. However, the 2 other topics are still relevant and depending on sematics and who is talking for sure you can say it is the bike, as much as it is the rider.
Hill, it is not clear yet if it is a bad match that is not fixable within factory program (like Barcia on JGR Yami), or if it is just a setup issue like Roczen 2016 and Tomac 2017.
This is just too much to solve. The RMZ250 platform would be competitive with the 2012 YZ250f. Since then Yamaha developed the new engine, smoked the competition, then the competition, all baring Suzuki caught back up.
Justin Hill has skills, on the level really of maybe a Seely in the 250s on his best day, not the elite of the elite as Tomac, Roczen and Dungey are. Bassically put him on a Star Yamaha and he would jump 5 places. He's a great rider but not someone who can transend a shit bike and win .
Pit Row
Still, I think a comparison to Dungey's 2012 season, when KTM was considered a sub par equipment is pretty accurate and says a lot on the subject of man vs machine factor.
I am aware, that comparing Hill to Dungey is not appropriate... but it shows, that a decent rider on a less than decent machinery still comes out on top, or somewhere close to the top anyway!
2015 Honda 250 was down 5hp to stock KTM 250. Did not stop Barcia and Tomac from dominating. Suzuki was down 3hp at that time. Today Suzuki are down ~4hp to stock KTM.
2017 250 Honda and Suzuki made equal amount of power stock, did not hear people stating Honda was slow?
So if Honda could catch up 5hp in 2015 (+ factory optimization add-on), on that old slow 250 platform (which Suzuki was more powerful then), Suzuki can catch up 4hp today (+ factory optimization add-on).
Here's 2012:
How difficult is that to understand? How is JGR/Yoshimura supposed to make it competitive within the production rules in US racing? To just say that "power is not a problem for JGR, they know how to make powerful engine packages" is just ignorant. JGR could make a too powerful YZF 450 according to some rumors,the 450 was too much to handle for some riders. But i'm pretty sure the factory Suzuki GP team is also capable of finding HP, they obviously couldn't make it happen with the current RMZ 250. What makes you think JGR can?
Now, is Hills bad start on the JGR team 100% because of the bike? Of course not. But it is a part of it. I don't know how big that part is, neither does anyone else. But it is a factor.
I think he should be able to do better than this, even though the bike is behind his competitors bikes.
I previously said I don't believe JGR RMZ's are lacking in the power dept. Quite the opposite I believe, JGR certainly knows how to build fast motors.
All the starts Hill has made, he been in the top at the end of the start straight. He has been well positioned over gate at A1 but selected a poor gate on the outside so was pushed wide.
He qualified fastest, so bike has power to go around the track obviously.
Houston he had good gate drops, was well in the mix in middle of start straight again but hit a tuff block going into first corner in main. In qualification he was second after two corners.
So really, i dont see where the lack of power is currently showing itself on the track?
Sure, he will not pull a KTM or PC bike on the start, but thats not where he is loosing out either.
It is a suspension/chassi setup issue, 100%.
Tomac felt great at Monster Cup 2016, did not touch bike settings before A1 because of that. We all know issues he had first 3 rounds.
No rider wants to train on tracks like Houston due to risks. One lap on those track maybe dont do much, specially when you are chasing 1-1.5sec without competition to compare to right then.
Seeing as you were under contract with Suzuki, did they try to keep you on the bike somehow? There were obviously those JGR rumours, so how close did that come to happening?
It did not really come close, but I had a contract on the table to go to JGR. This is true. It was not the way that I wanted to have it. I mean, it was a good contract, but it was not my intention to stay on the 250F Suzuki any longer. I have done it the last few years and I know what we were dealing with, so I just needed something new. This is why going to America did not happen in the end. Even if I was pretty open to turn everything one hundred and eighty degrees, it obviously did not happen in the end. This is just how it was.
It was not like you were worried about doing supercross or anything like that then? It was just that you felt like you had gotten everything you can out of that 250F and are ready to move up now.
Yeah, it was the other bit of the case. Suzuki did not actually push hard to keep me, so I had no reason for that, plus you know what we have struggled with the past few years and why we lost the championship to Pauls that hard. It was clearly my decision then to say that I would not stay on a Suzuki 250F. I am ready to move on with a 450F, so everything came together really well with Wilvo.
Post a reply to: Justin Hill - Its Definitely NOT The Bike Right?