Jesse Wentland draws the line

tcallahan707
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1/24/2018 6:22pm Edited Date/Time 1/24/2018 7:35pm
Top 50 overall. I didn't make any reference to a union or what was best for the riders/promoters/sport. I simply commented on your view that he...
Top 50 overall.

I didn't make any reference to a union or what was best for the riders/promoters/sport. I simply commented on your view that he was basically an amateur who bought his way into a professional sporting event. I do not feel the same way about that. If Joe Football plays in the NFL as a back up for 4 or 5 years and then doesn't get signed and has to move on with life, was he just an amateur without the skillset to be professional?
APLMAN99 wrote:
Top 50 in the world might be a bit of a stretch, but there were probably days that he may have been of course. There are...
Top 50 in the world might be a bit of a stretch, but there were probably days that he may have been of course. There are a lot of fast guys who aren't in the racing series here is the States who may qualify for that list ahead of him.......

The football player analogy is a poor one. Obviously someone felt that he was worth paying a (relatively high) salary to for 4-5 years to be a football player.

SX/MX is obviously pretty different as you can enter events without being paid by an employer, so that it certainly can be effectively a hobby that you'd like to be a profession, without it ever really paying the bills.

I'd be interested in hearing exactly how much this young man (who I don't have any ill will towards!) thinks he should have been renumerated for in his past races and seasons. That'd be an interesting topic. Does he think that his results 'deserve' a payout of $50K? $100K? $250K? And after that, how much should those who finished far higher than him should be paid.

Unfortunately that sort of discussion would devolve into name calling, personal attacks, etc. But it truly would be a genuinely interesting thing to discuss as long as you weren't going in to 'school' him on the economics of things or try to change his mind.
While there are certainly riders capable of being better at SX than him, that claim can't be made until they prove it. Can Shaun White out rip some professional backcountry snowboarders? Very possible, but I don' t think it's fair to make that assumption when assessing the totem pole of a backcountry snowboarders. I threw out top 50 as a ballpark figure but I think it's pretty fair.

Yes, there are differences with stick and ball sports vs SX/MX. My point was that calling someone an amateur just because the guy can't race/play for 15 years, leave the sport on his own terms, and retire for the rest of his life is so incredibly disrespectful. If you get paid to compete, or are competing for money, you are a professional. Whether that covers your bills is fairly irrelevant. There are many small individual sports out there that the best in the world (but not top 5-10) dedicate their lives to yet still have to find other ways to make money (bowling, rock climbing, darts, pole dancing, many action sports, etc..). They are still professionals. They are competing against the best of the best for money.

On top of that, there is the fact that the sanctioning body issues a license to compete in their professional events.
1/24/2018 6:57pm
motoBRD wrote:
I don't know why I read all of that, but here we are - 9 pages deep and nowhere near what I believe is at the...
I don't know why I read all of that, but here we are - 9 pages deep and nowhere near what I believe is at the heart of the issue. And since this is a forum, I'll leave my unsupported opinion right here, just like the rest of you.

I believe strongly that the market dictates what is fair, and for that reason believe the payouts are about right. Flame on I guess. Yes, the sport is dangerous, and yes, other people besides the privateer are making a lot of money. But if it wasn't fair, don't you think we would have seen maybe once - just once - a time when the gates weren't full? I've been watching SX/MX since I was 4, and I'm 30, and I've never seen a main or a moto with less than the full gate. The show always goes on. Hell, they even added 2 spots recently. Why do the riders keep signing up and paying these entry fees, and risking it all? Is FELD also into some kind of mind control that I don't know about?

And now for the heart of the issue - the fans. I think the fans are the only ones with any leverage here. The factories need FELD (throw in any other promoter here) to market and sell their product. The privateers need FELD so they can chase their dream. The fans - now the fans don't need FELD. They, dare I say 'we', could stop attending races. We could stop watching and stop buying merchandise. We are the only ones who matter that can speak up. But, we don't, myself and all of you included.

You all, or I assume most of you, watch and attend the races voting 'YES' with your dollar. And then in a confused fit come here trying to get your vote back. I mean, does FELD have a business without your eyes and wallets? I don't think so.

So - I don't think that gets us anywhere collectively. I too will continue to watch and get caught up in this paradox, but I'll feel a little better believing that it's fair. The guys keep showing up, making some money, living the dream of going factory. I know it. My cousin little cousin has been trying since he was 4. He's been mid-20s at LL in Pro Sport/A the last few years and now trying to qualify at Unadilla while my uncle drives the motor home, fixing all the burned out clutches this kid tears through. This kid is smart though, and he's going to college and starting to realize the dream is coming to an end - just like this rant.
"...And then in a confused fit, come here trying to get your vote back."

Well done sir. Well, fucking, done.
yak651
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1/24/2018 7:12pm
If the bull riders can do it, the MX/SX riders SHOULD be able to do it, but most likely wont...

The Shop

1/24/2018 7:28pm Edited Date/Time 1/24/2018 7:31pm
Top 50 overall. I didn't make any reference to a union or what was best for the riders/promoters/sport. I simply commented on your view that he...
Top 50 overall.

I didn't make any reference to a union or what was best for the riders/promoters/sport. I simply commented on your view that he was basically an amateur who bought his way into a professional sporting event. I do not feel the same way about that. If Joe Football plays in the NFL as a back up for 4 or 5 years and then doesn't get signed and has to move on with life, was he just an amateur without the skillset to be professional?
So in your example, Joe Football plays for an actual NFL team, as in, he's on the ROSTER and takes a PAYCHECK negotiated by his UNION and you're comparing him to "Top 50 Jesse"?

Yes, 3rd string Joe Football is a professional. In fact, he's an underpaid professional. If Jesse had been signed to a team, was a top 20 guy in the 450 class, and was making $90k a year and still didnt think it was enough, he'd actually have a better leg to stand on here.

Every NFL player on a 53 man roster is a necessary component to that league functioning. Even the guys who dont play in games. There are no wasted roster spots (except for white QBs but that's another debate). NFL owners are some of, if not, the greediest motherfuckers on the planet. They're not in the business of paying people for no reason (well, except for certain white QBs, but again, Ive digressed).

The only amateurs that arent amateurs, but get paid like amateurs, are NCAA athletes. That's a multi-billion dollar business that doesnt pay it's labor force.

If Ken Roczen is the equivalent of an elite NCAA basketball player for Duke University. That makes Jesse Wentland the starting goalie for the women's field hockey team. One very much is an amateur in that analogy. The other is a pro who doesnt get paid.
tcallahan707
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1/24/2018 7:33pm
Top 50 overall. I didn't make any reference to a union or what was best for the riders/promoters/sport. I simply commented on your view that he...
Top 50 overall.

I didn't make any reference to a union or what was best for the riders/promoters/sport. I simply commented on your view that he was basically an amateur who bought his way into a professional sporting event. I do not feel the same way about that. If Joe Football plays in the NFL as a back up for 4 or 5 years and then doesn't get signed and has to move on with life, was he just an amateur without the skillset to be professional?
So in your example, Joe Football plays for an actual NFL team, as in, he's on the ROSTER and takes a PAYCHECK negotiated by his UNION...
So in your example, Joe Football plays for an actual NFL team, as in, he's on the ROSTER and takes a PAYCHECK negotiated by his UNION and you're comparing him to "Top 50 Jesse"?

Yes, 3rd string Joe Football is a professional. In fact, he's an underpaid professional. If Jesse had been signed to a team, was a top 20 guy in the 450 class, and was making $90k a year and still didnt think it was enough, he'd actually have a better leg to stand on here.

Every NFL player on a 53 man roster is a necessary component to that league functioning. Even the guys who dont play in games. There are no wasted roster spots (except for white QBs but that's another debate). NFL owners are some of, if not, the greediest motherfuckers on the planet. They're not in the business of paying people for no reason (well, except for certain white QBs, but again, Ive digressed).

The only amateurs that arent amateurs, but get paid like amateurs, are NCAA athletes. That's a multi-billion dollar business that doesnt pay it's labor force.

If Ken Roczen is the equivalent of an elite NCAA basketball player for Duke University. That makes Jesse Wentland the starting goalie for the women's field hockey team. One very much is an amateur in that analogy. The other is a pro who doesnt get paid.
I clarified my football comment above, because it’s not a great analogy.

Curious, why is Ken the Duke b-ball player (pro who doesn’t get paid) and not Jesse?
1/24/2018 7:44pm
I clarified my football comment above, because it’s not a great analogy. Curious, why is Ken the Duke b-ball player (pro who doesn’t get paid) and...
I clarified my football comment above, because it’s not a great analogy.

Curious, why is Ken the Duke b-ball player (pro who doesn’t get paid) and not Jesse?
Because Ken is part of the show. He helps Feld generate revenue.

Jesse is not the show. If Feld was forced to pay out the privateers better or drop them from the program, you know which route they'd choose.
brocster
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1/24/2018 7:46pm
Top 50 overall. I didn't make any reference to a union or what was best for the riders/promoters/sport. I simply commented on your view that he...
Top 50 overall.

I didn't make any reference to a union or what was best for the riders/promoters/sport. I simply commented on your view that he was basically an amateur who bought his way into a professional sporting event. I do not feel the same way about that. If Joe Football plays in the NFL as a back up for 4 or 5 years and then doesn't get signed and has to move on with life, was he just an amateur without the skillset to be professional?
So in your example, Joe Football plays for an actual NFL team, as in, he's on the ROSTER and takes a PAYCHECK negotiated by his UNION...
So in your example, Joe Football plays for an actual NFL team, as in, he's on the ROSTER and takes a PAYCHECK negotiated by his UNION and you're comparing him to "Top 50 Jesse"?

Yes, 3rd string Joe Football is a professional. In fact, he's an underpaid professional. If Jesse had been signed to a team, was a top 20 guy in the 450 class, and was making $90k a year and still didnt think it was enough, he'd actually have a better leg to stand on here.

Every NFL player on a 53 man roster is a necessary component to that league functioning. Even the guys who dont play in games. There are no wasted roster spots (except for white QBs but that's another debate). NFL owners are some of, if not, the greediest motherfuckers on the planet. They're not in the business of paying people for no reason (well, except for certain white QBs, but again, Ive digressed).

The only amateurs that arent amateurs, but get paid like amateurs, are NCAA athletes. That's a multi-billion dollar business that doesnt pay it's labor force.

If Ken Roczen is the equivalent of an elite NCAA basketball player for Duke University. That makes Jesse Wentland the starting goalie for the women's field hockey team. One very much is an amateur in that analogy. The other is a pro who doesnt get paid.
So tell me about how the top 100 pro numbers are assigned...
brocster
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1/24/2018 7:51pm
I clarified my football comment above, because it’s not a great analogy. Curious, why is Ken the Duke b-ball player (pro who doesn’t get paid) and...
I clarified my football comment above, because it’s not a great analogy.

Curious, why is Ken the Duke b-ball player (pro who doesn’t get paid) and not Jesse?
Because Ken is part of the show. He helps Feld generate revenue. Jesse is not the show. If Feld was forced to pay out the privateers...
Because Ken is part of the show. He helps Feld generate revenue.

Jesse is not the show. If Feld was forced to pay out the privateers better or drop them from the program, you know which route they'd choose.
Jesse IS the show. He made the night show and MAIN event many times
m121c
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1/24/2018 8:01pm
Because Ken is part of the show. He helps Feld generate revenue. Jesse is not the show. If Feld was forced to pay out the privateers...
Because Ken is part of the show. He helps Feld generate revenue.

Jesse is not the show. If Feld was forced to pay out the privateers better or drop them from the program, you know which route they'd choose.
I sort of disagree...

Without those privateers we don't have: qualifying practice, heat races, or LCQ's. They may not have big names or a million Instagram followers, but many people around the country that are into the sport are rooting for them. When guys like Wentland have races close to home, they have an entire family entourage and friends buy tickets. Then those people go tell their friends and they buy tickets. Ronnie Stewart alone sells out 2 rows of seats sometimes.

The all day supercross event, with party in the pits and etc. is now a stretched out over blown commercial show with a free practice and a main event of factory riders racing each other.

For the people who just go see dirtbikes? Well, they don't care regardless. They want their moneys worth, watching a free practice and then watching 15 factory riders race each other in one race and going home at $75's a ticket is a joke.

Regardless of what you think of Jesse.. you can't ignore an imminent problem in the sport. It's growing, yet everything internally is stagnant or declining. It's pretty ridiculous a local A rider who sweeps the pro classes at a local Midwest fair race or pro-am can walk away with the same (if not more) amount of purse money than a 250 main winner.

The money has to go somewhere...
motoBRD
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1/24/2018 8:24pm
The show...privateers in my opinion are part of the show. Literally, a few of them make "the show" every race. Personally, I like following riders from my home state of NY. I'm low on privateers at this point. Bring me back a Paul Carpenter or Bobby Kiniry and that certainly adds something for me. A good LCQ where Peick and Kiniry essentially tie, and the actual winner knocks his bike of the stand full meathead...at Daytona of all places. Gold.

That said, privateers are a dime a dozen. I'm watching the races for the top talent, not for who is getting 15th in said race. Is anyone going to stop watching now that Jesse isn't racing? Was anyone ever watching before? I don't mean that to be harsh, but if we keep up the stick/ball comparisons he's like the 4th string WR, but he makes way less money. Maybe fantasy SX really is the answer here.

Pro racing is not dead. And if it was, we should be directing our attention at 4 strokes. It's not PEDs or FELD, it's 4 strokes for sure.
1/24/2018 10:56pm
Because Ken is part of the show. He helps Feld generate revenue. Jesse is not the show. If Feld was forced to pay out the privateers...
Because Ken is part of the show. He helps Feld generate revenue.

Jesse is not the show. If Feld was forced to pay out the privateers better or drop them from the program, you know which route they'd choose.
m121c wrote:
I sort of disagree... Without those privateers we don't have: qualifying practice, heat races, or LCQ's. They may not have big names or a million Instagram...
I sort of disagree...

Without those privateers we don't have: qualifying practice, heat races, or LCQ's. They may not have big names or a million Instagram followers, but many people around the country that are into the sport are rooting for them. When guys like Wentland have races close to home, they have an entire family entourage and friends buy tickets. Then those people go tell their friends and they buy tickets. Ronnie Stewart alone sells out 2 rows of seats sometimes.

The all day supercross event, with party in the pits and etc. is now a stretched out over blown commercial show with a free practice and a main event of factory riders racing each other.

For the people who just go see dirtbikes? Well, they don't care regardless. They want their moneys worth, watching a free practice and then watching 15 factory riders race each other in one race and going home at $75's a ticket is a joke.

Regardless of what you think of Jesse.. you can't ignore an imminent problem in the sport. It's growing, yet everything internally is stagnant or declining. It's pretty ridiculous a local A rider who sweeps the pro classes at a local Midwest fair race or pro-am can walk away with the same (if not more) amount of purse money than a 250 main winner.

The money has to go somewhere...
This aint a bad argument. Well played.

I guess we'd have to talk to someone in the know. Im sure they have some data on how much the privateers cost and how much revenue they bring in. I'm guessing it's a wash tbh. All those practices and day qualifying requires a lot of track maintenance.

Im also theorizing that the "show" gets a lot better if the product is more focused. The practices could be more focused on the riders of the teams. It doesnt have to be stretched out all day for fans to feel like they got their money's worth.

Your last paragraph I dont disagree with at all. I do think there are problems. I just dont think further diluting the resources is the answer. Paying the privateers more $ is a extension of the same philosophy that enables the current system of 6 premier classes in the sport. THAT is what is hurting things. No other motorsport operates that way.

Imagine this sport if all the talent (riders, teams, venues, mechanics) were all packaged into one product (series). A true world championship with all of the best of the best in one class. All media directed towards it. Everyone in that series would be getting paid better. And the media exposure it would allow for would be 6 fold what we have today.

Does that help the privateer? No. It eliminates them from premier class racing and forces them into a true meritocratic feeder series where they'd have a better shot at showing their talent. What Im proposing is so much more efficient. The best of the best should get paid what they're worth and the lower tier riders should have a series they can show their worth. Purses and payout wouldnt even be necessary.

Purse payout is not the same as revenue sharing for it's teams. And this sport does not have revenue sharing. Take care of teams and you will have a healthy sport. Take care of riders and you are pissing money away.
Phillip_Lamb
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1/24/2018 11:10pm Edited Date/Time 1/24/2018 11:13pm
he has a point. The purse payouts that the promoters offer havent changed with the economy. I remember reading back in 03 about purse money and its the same amount. Back in 03 it was ok? meh, but now with expensive bikes and higher costs of living it simply doesnt go far.

As a privateer, you used to have a good shot at making money doing by being a bounty hunter to local events that have purses, but those events have seemed to dry out. I remember in norcal in early 00's there were a half dozen events that offer a few thousand in purse money. I havent seen anything like that in years

As for a union, they do need something. I think what Trey canard is doing is something they have needed for a long time. They need someone looking out for their safety and well being, there have been many cases when riders brought to attention an issue with the track and it was never changed and caused crashes.

the future for the sport is getting dangerously close to Monster Jam rather than Nascar or football. Its being dealt with more and more like a "show" and not a competition.

If the riders as a whole do not make a stand and group together then they will be reduced to paid performers and you'll only 20 guys each weekend and racing as a privateer will be reduced to pro am events and local racing..
roninho
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1/25/2018 12:38am
This aint a bad argument. Well played. I guess we'd have to talk to someone in the know. Im sure they have some data on how...
This aint a bad argument. Well played.

I guess we'd have to talk to someone in the know. Im sure they have some data on how much the privateers cost and how much revenue they bring in. I'm guessing it's a wash tbh. All those practices and day qualifying requires a lot of track maintenance.

Im also theorizing that the "show" gets a lot better if the product is more focused. The practices could be more focused on the riders of the teams. It doesnt have to be stretched out all day for fans to feel like they got their money's worth.

Your last paragraph I dont disagree with at all. I do think there are problems. I just dont think further diluting the resources is the answer. Paying the privateers more $ is a extension of the same philosophy that enables the current system of 6 premier classes in the sport. THAT is what is hurting things. No other motorsport operates that way.

Imagine this sport if all the talent (riders, teams, venues, mechanics) were all packaged into one product (series). A true world championship with all of the best of the best in one class. All media directed towards it. Everyone in that series would be getting paid better. And the media exposure it would allow for would be 6 fold what we have today.

Does that help the privateer? No. It eliminates them from premier class racing and forces them into a true meritocratic feeder series where they'd have a better shot at showing their talent. What Im proposing is so much more efficient. The best of the best should get paid what they're worth and the lower tier riders should have a series they can show their worth. Purses and payout wouldnt even be necessary.

Purse payout is not the same as revenue sharing for it's teams. And this sport does not have revenue sharing. Take care of teams and you will have a healthy sport. Take care of riders and you are pissing money away.
Just a remark on the '6 premier classes in the sport'. An that is what is hurting things & no other motorsport operates that way.

Why can there be a very succesfull F1, when there is also Le Mans and DTM and Nascar?
Why can there be a very succesfull Motogp, when there is also World Superbike?
Why can there be a very succesfull Premier league while there is also a Bundesliga, Serie A and Primera division? (soccer)
Why can there be a very succesfull NFL, when there is also college football?

I don't think that having multiple competitions in a sport is a reason for none of the competitions to become a enormous succes.
And i certainly don't believe there is much if any impact of MXGP on the success of Supercross, and vice versa.

Motofinne
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1/25/2018 12:45am
This aint a bad argument. Well played. I guess we'd have to talk to someone in the know. Im sure they have some data on how...
This aint a bad argument. Well played.

I guess we'd have to talk to someone in the know. Im sure they have some data on how much the privateers cost and how much revenue they bring in. I'm guessing it's a wash tbh. All those practices and day qualifying requires a lot of track maintenance.

Im also theorizing that the "show" gets a lot better if the product is more focused. The practices could be more focused on the riders of the teams. It doesnt have to be stretched out all day for fans to feel like they got their money's worth.

Your last paragraph I dont disagree with at all. I do think there are problems. I just dont think further diluting the resources is the answer. Paying the privateers more $ is a extension of the same philosophy that enables the current system of 6 premier classes in the sport. THAT is what is hurting things. No other motorsport operates that way.

Imagine this sport if all the talent (riders, teams, venues, mechanics) were all packaged into one product (series). A true world championship with all of the best of the best in one class. All media directed towards it. Everyone in that series would be getting paid better. And the media exposure it would allow for would be 6 fold what we have today.

Does that help the privateer? No. It eliminates them from premier class racing and forces them into a true meritocratic feeder series where they'd have a better shot at showing their talent. What Im proposing is so much more efficient. The best of the best should get paid what they're worth and the lower tier riders should have a series they can show their worth. Purses and payout wouldnt even be necessary.

Purse payout is not the same as revenue sharing for it's teams. And this sport does not have revenue sharing. Take care of teams and you will have a healthy sport. Take care of riders and you are pissing money away.
roninho wrote:
Just a remark on the '6 premier classes in the sport'. An that is what is hurting things & no other motorsport operates that way. Why...
Just a remark on the '6 premier classes in the sport'. An that is what is hurting things & no other motorsport operates that way.

Why can there be a very succesfull F1, when there is also Le Mans and DTM and Nascar?
Why can there be a very succesfull Motogp, when there is also World Superbike?
Why can there be a very succesfull Premier league while there is also a Bundesliga, Serie A and Primera division? (soccer)
Why can there be a very succesfull NFL, when there is also college football?

I don't think that having multiple competitions in a sport is a reason for none of the competitions to become a enormous succes.
And i certainly don't believe there is much if any impact of MXGP on the success of Supercross, and vice versa.

The difference is that those sports are SO much bigger.

Our sport isn't big enough to spread out the talent and money like we do, i think that is the argument.
roninho
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1/25/2018 1:06am
[quote=Jabroni wrote:]Purse payout is not the same as revenue sharing for it's teams. And this sport does not have revenue sharing. Take care of teams and you will have a healthy sport. Take care of riders and you are pissing money away.[/quote]
Yep agreed, and also something you see in most succesfull sports (f1, motogp, nfl, soccer, etc.).

However, what you also see is that those team unite themselves to force the promoter to get a position and for example share revenu. As long as that does not happen nothing will change in SX.



mx317
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1/25/2018 5:24am
I would love to see the riders make more money, no doubt they earn it. On the other hand, I don't want to pay $200 for a SX ticket. I tried racing nationals in the 80s and found I could make more money racing local pro. I still love all the places I got to travel to and the fun I had, but if you are making it a career choice you are better doing something else. JT$ did it right. He chased money where he could make it and presented himself well. That set him up for a career after racing in the industry he loves. If they haven't picked you up after Loretta's, you will have a very steep uphill climb.
steveada
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1/25/2018 5:27am
I think too many have a very skewed belief of the finances involved here. Feld gets 2.2 million a year from FX1, their highest ever, which is a pittance. By comparison, the PAC12 conference gets 220 million a year from its TV contract for football, and that doesn't include bowl games and championship games. I use that as an example only because I am familiar with it, not that it is in any way similar to supercross. There's just not a whole lot of money to go around here, and Feld seems to be dong a pretty good job of promoting the series. I also don't see any teams making a killing, it seems to be a constant struggle for them just to keep racing, let alone get a huge profit. It is not possible for purse money to ever be high enough to significantly offset the costs involved for them to field a team, they all will always require outside support to keep going. If it is that way for the major teams, it kind of has to be the same for privateers.
kkawboy14
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1/25/2018 6:45am Edited Date/Time 1/25/2018 7:04am
It’s a simple fix, all Feld has to do is give riders the ability to give their sponsors tv time. The money would roll into the privateers teams. A little pop up when the rider is on screen for example. NASCAR teams are given exposure every time the car is on tv, because it is a bigger rolling billboard.
1/25/2018 9:38am
steveada wrote:
I think too many have a very skewed belief of the finances involved here. Feld gets 2.2 million a year from FX1, their highest ever, which...
I think too many have a very skewed belief of the finances involved here. Feld gets 2.2 million a year from FX1, their highest ever, which is a pittance. By comparison, the PAC12 conference gets 220 million a year from its TV contract for football, and that doesn't include bowl games and championship games. I use that as an example only because I am familiar with it, not that it is in any way similar to supercross. There's just not a whole lot of money to go around here, and Feld seems to be dong a pretty good job of promoting the series. I also don't see any teams making a killing, it seems to be a constant struggle for them just to keep racing, let alone get a huge profit. It is not possible for purse money to ever be high enough to significantly offset the costs involved for them to field a team, they all will always require outside support to keep going. If it is that way for the major teams, it kind of has to be the same for privateers.
Is FX1 actually paying Feld?

That'd be news to me. SX has traditionally had to pay for it's TV slot and then sell it's own advertising. Like most TV programming.
-MAVERICK-
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1/25/2018 9:47am Edited Date/Time 1/25/2018 9:50am
steveada wrote:
I think too many have a very skewed belief of the finances involved here. Feld gets 2.2 million a year from FX1, their highest ever, which...
I think too many have a very skewed belief of the finances involved here. Feld gets 2.2 million a year from FX1, their highest ever, which is a pittance. By comparison, the PAC12 conference gets 220 million a year from its TV contract for football, and that doesn't include bowl games and championship games. I use that as an example only because I am familiar with it, not that it is in any way similar to supercross. There's just not a whole lot of money to go around here, and Feld seems to be dong a pretty good job of promoting the series. I also don't see any teams making a killing, it seems to be a constant struggle for them just to keep racing, let alone get a huge profit. It is not possible for purse money to ever be high enough to significantly offset the costs involved for them to field a team, they all will always require outside support to keep going. If it is that way for the major teams, it kind of has to be the same for privateers.
Is FX1 actually paying Feld? That'd be news to me. SX has traditionally had to pay for it's TV slot and then sell it's own advertising...
Is FX1 actually paying Feld?

That'd be news to me. SX has traditionally had to pay for it's TV slot and then sell it's own advertising. Like most TV programming.
I think it's in this thread someone posted an article saying Feld was paid $4 million so FOX/FS1 could broadcast the races. That was up from the $2.2 million they were paid before.

Something like that anyways.

Edit: It's this thread. Check page 8 for the article.
kkawboy14
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1/25/2018 9:52am
steveada wrote:
I think too many have a very skewed belief of the finances involved here. Feld gets 2.2 million a year from FX1, their highest ever, which...
I think too many have a very skewed belief of the finances involved here. Feld gets 2.2 million a year from FX1, their highest ever, which is a pittance. By comparison, the PAC12 conference gets 220 million a year from its TV contract for football, and that doesn't include bowl games and championship games. I use that as an example only because I am familiar with it, not that it is in any way similar to supercross. There's just not a whole lot of money to go around here, and Feld seems to be dong a pretty good job of promoting the series. I also don't see any teams making a killing, it seems to be a constant struggle for them just to keep racing, let alone get a huge profit. It is not possible for purse money to ever be high enough to significantly offset the costs involved for them to field a team, they all will always require outside support to keep going. If it is that way for the major teams, it kind of has to be the same for privateers.
Is FX1 actually paying Feld? That'd be news to me. SX has traditionally had to pay for it's TV slot and then sell it's own advertising...
Is FX1 actually paying Feld?

That'd be news to me. SX has traditionally had to pay for it's TV slot and then sell it's own advertising. Like most TV programming.
-MAVERICK- wrote:
I think it's in this thread someone posted an article saying Feld was paid $4 million so FOX/FS1 could broadcast the races. That was up from...
I think it's in this thread someone posted an article saying Feld was paid $4 million so FOX/FS1 could broadcast the races. That was up from the $2.2 million they were paid before.

Something like that anyways.

Edit: It's this thread. Check page 8 for the article.
And I believe that was the 2013 contract. Posting they are getting 8-10 million from tv and monster kinda killed the thread.....
1/25/2018 9:56am Edited Date/Time 1/25/2018 10:06am
roninho wrote:
Just a remark on the '6 premier classes in the sport'. An that is what is hurting things & no other motorsport operates that way. Why...
Just a remark on the '6 premier classes in the sport'. An that is what is hurting things & no other motorsport operates that way.

Why can there be a very succesfull F1, when there is also Le Mans and DTM and Nascar?
Why can there be a very succesfull Motogp, when there is also World Superbike?
Why can there be a very succesfull Premier league while there is also a Bundesliga, Serie A and Primera division? (soccer)
Why can there be a very succesfull NFL, when there is also college football?

I don't think that having multiple competitions in a sport is a reason for none of the competitions to become a enormous succes.
And i certainly don't believe there is much if any impact of MXGP on the success of Supercross, and vice versa.

F1 is not in competition with LeMans, DTM, and Nascar. They are literally different formats of racing. Heck, NASCAR isnt even FIA sanctioned is it? They dont use the same venues, compete for the same drivers or teams, or even the same fan demographic.

LeMans is endurance racing. It's a different genre than F1. Im not making the argument that World Enduro is taking away from World MX.

Im making the argument that their are 6 different series/classes that are pulling from the same pool of MX riders. F1 isnt sharing TV time with it's feeder series either. Just the simple fact that Supercross in America televises the 250 class while the 12th place guy in the "premier" class is underpaid is gross mismanagement. They've effectively made a FEEDER class a "premier" class by giving it equal TV exposure. The sport cannot afford it. That is time that should be given to the 8th best team in what should be the premier class.

Let me shoot holes elsewhere in your argument....

FIM gave Dorna the promoting rights to WSBK and the first thing Dorna did was ensure WSBK was to no longer be in competition with MotoGP. WSBK is clearly a tier down.

Soccer... nothing wrong with domestic leagues. But there is only ONE Champions League right?

Football... yes, technically 2 pro leagues. They never schedule games on the same days. They are working together and it is clearly tiered. So they both grow. You would NEVER see the NFL network put more effort into marketing a college football team than it does one of it's own 32 teams. Yet in SX, plenty of 250 teams get more TV time than some of the bottom 450 teams.

You really dont think MXGP and SX arent in competition? It's literally splitting the talent pool of the riders in half, in a sport that already has a much smaller talent pool than Soccer or the others. It also splits the OEM's budgets. Monster Energy is sponsoring the series on both sides. That money should go into ONE series so it has a better chance at reaching the mainstream. They could buy a better TV slot, get more exposure, and then get bigger sponsors.
1/25/2018 10:03am
steveada wrote:
I think too many have a very skewed belief of the finances involved here. Feld gets 2.2 million a year from FX1, their highest ever, which...
I think too many have a very skewed belief of the finances involved here. Feld gets 2.2 million a year from FX1, their highest ever, which is a pittance. By comparison, the PAC12 conference gets 220 million a year from its TV contract for football, and that doesn't include bowl games and championship games. I use that as an example only because I am familiar with it, not that it is in any way similar to supercross. There's just not a whole lot of money to go around here, and Feld seems to be dong a pretty good job of promoting the series. I also don't see any teams making a killing, it seems to be a constant struggle for them just to keep racing, let alone get a huge profit. It is not possible for purse money to ever be high enough to significantly offset the costs involved for them to field a team, they all will always require outside support to keep going. If it is that way for the major teams, it kind of has to be the same for privateers.
Is FX1 actually paying Feld? That'd be news to me. SX has traditionally had to pay for it's TV slot and then sell it's own advertising...
Is FX1 actually paying Feld?

That'd be news to me. SX has traditionally had to pay for it's TV slot and then sell it's own advertising. Like most TV programming.
-MAVERICK- wrote:
I think it's in this thread someone posted an article saying Feld was paid $4 million so FOX/FS1 could broadcast the races. That was up from...
I think it's in this thread someone posted an article saying Feld was paid $4 million so FOX/FS1 could broadcast the races. That was up from the $2.2 million they were paid before.

Something like that anyways.

Edit: It's this thread. Check page 8 for the article.
Wow. That is significant and a very positive step. Very few sports actually get "paid" to be on TV. $4m aint much but just look at hockey. Their TV deal after their strike wasnt very good.

That puts an even bigger premium on the production value of the broadcast. It's no longer Monster Energy's money that Feld is pissing away. No wonder they are playing with a 3 main format. They dont want to blow this deal with Fox.

50% revenue share (standard in most sports) would be $2m on the TV alone (not counting merchandise and concessions). Let's just stick with $2m flat for the sake of conversation and the huge unknown costs of running the series.

$2m divided by 10 premier class teams = $200k per team to start the year off with.

That may not seem like much, but it is significant. Especially for the bottom teams.

But of course, the teams would have to force this situation on Feld.
-MAVERICK-
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1/25/2018 10:15am Edited Date/Time 1/25/2018 10:16am
Is FX1 actually paying Feld? That'd be news to me. SX has traditionally had to pay for it's TV slot and then sell it's own advertising...
Is FX1 actually paying Feld?

That'd be news to me. SX has traditionally had to pay for it's TV slot and then sell it's own advertising. Like most TV programming.
-MAVERICK- wrote:
I think it's in this thread someone posted an article saying Feld was paid $4 million so FOX/FS1 could broadcast the races. That was up from...
I think it's in this thread someone posted an article saying Feld was paid $4 million so FOX/FS1 could broadcast the races. That was up from the $2.2 million they were paid before.

Something like that anyways.

Edit: It's this thread. Check page 8 for the article.
Wow. That is significant and a very positive step. Very few sports actually get "paid" to be on TV. $4m aint much but just look at...
Wow. That is significant and a very positive step. Very few sports actually get "paid" to be on TV. $4m aint much but just look at hockey. Their TV deal after their strike wasnt very good.

That puts an even bigger premium on the production value of the broadcast. It's no longer Monster Energy's money that Feld is pissing away. No wonder they are playing with a 3 main format. They dont want to blow this deal with Fox.

50% revenue share (standard in most sports) would be $2m on the TV alone (not counting merchandise and concessions). Let's just stick with $2m flat for the sake of conversation and the huge unknown costs of running the series.

$2m divided by 10 premier class teams = $200k per team to start the year off with.

That may not seem like much, but it is significant. Especially for the bottom teams.

But of course, the teams would have to force this situation on Feld.
Go read what kkawboy14 posted a few posts above. That was an old contract. It's more than that now.

Also, revenue sharing would not be divided equally. Just like F1 the oldest/premier team would receive the bulk of the money and the lower tiered teams would get less. Regardless, the only way to have revenue sharing is with TV deals. The bigger the better.

What ever happened to the privateer award? I seem to remember that at one point or another the privateer that scored the most points was rewarded with something like 25K. Pretty sure there was a truck as well.
1/25/2018 10:43am
-MAVERICK- wrote:
Go read what kkawboy14 posted a few posts above. That was an old contract. It's more than that now. Also, revenue sharing would not be divided...
Go read what kkawboy14 posted a few posts above. That was an old contract. It's more than that now.

Also, revenue sharing would not be divided equally. Just like F1 the oldest/premier team would receive the bulk of the money and the lower tiered teams would get less. Regardless, the only way to have revenue sharing is with TV deals. The bigger the better.

What ever happened to the privateer award? I seem to remember that at one point or another the privateer that scored the most points was rewarded with something like 25K. Pretty sure there was a truck as well.
Im not a fan of unequal revenue sharing. F1 does this to the detriment of it's growth.

In the NFL, every NFL team gets a equal share of the TV money. It's the proper way.

And it's not just TV deals, it's all revenue.

Feld would resist. Just like everyone thought the NFL was crazy when they originally developed their revenue sharing platform that looked after small markets like GreenBay. It has proven to be the best system. Yes, it's socialism, but on a small scale, everyone pulls their weight.
kkawboy14
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1/25/2018 12:31pm Edited Date/Time 1/25/2018 12:45pm
-MAVERICK- wrote:
Go read what kkawboy14 posted a few posts above. That was an old contract. It's more than that now. Also, revenue sharing would not be divided...
Go read what kkawboy14 posted a few posts above. That was an old contract. It's more than that now.

Also, revenue sharing would not be divided equally. Just like F1 the oldest/premier team would receive the bulk of the money and the lower tiered teams would get less. Regardless, the only way to have revenue sharing is with TV deals. The bigger the better.

What ever happened to the privateer award? I seem to remember that at one point or another the privateer that scored the most points was rewarded with something like 25K. Pretty sure there was a truck as well.
Im not a fan of unequal revenue sharing. F1 does this to the detriment of it's growth. In the NFL, every NFL team gets a equal...
Im not a fan of unequal revenue sharing. F1 does this to the detriment of it's growth.

In the NFL, every NFL team gets a equal share of the TV money. It's the proper way.

And it's not just TV deals, it's all revenue.

Feld would resist. Just like everyone thought the NFL was crazy when they originally developed their revenue sharing platform that looked after small markets like GreenBay. It has proven to be the best system. Yes, it's socialism, but on a small scale, everyone pulls their weight.
I’m a fan of the winners should get more and reducing it on down for incentive to win. I comment mostly about this stuff as a fan of the little guy and as a business man. I’ve had a number of friends who had to quit racing pro when their dads quit paying the bills. The dads realized that for the most part pro Racing was a bottomless pit.
As a business guy I realize the guys who work for me have to make a living wage, if they can’t live off of what I pay them, they will have to leave even if they want to stay.
With less guys making the night program with the triple crown more guys will drop out because they have to.
When Jam and Clear Channel went thru their deal CC miraculously found more money for payouts because they had to.
Feld has 3 choices, continue the way they are, payout more each year or give the riders a better platform to secure sponsors because of having tv time (which is what Feld claims to be the value they are bringing to the table)
Maybe instead of watching stupid videos of people watching the race with miss sx that time could be doing a Monster Pit Crawl and highlighting the privateers.......I know dumb idea right?
1/25/2018 12:47pm Edited Date/Time 1/25/2018 1:01pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
I’m a fan of the winners should get more and reducing it on down for incentive to win. I comment mostly about this stuff as a...
I’m a fan of the winners should get more and reducing it on down for incentive to win. I comment mostly about this stuff as a fan of the little guy and as a business man. I’ve had a number of friends who had to quit racing pro when their dads quit paying the bills. The dads realized that for the most part pro Racing was a bottomless pit.
As a business guy I realize the guys who work for me have to make a living wage, if they can’t live off of what I pay them, they will have to leave even if they want to stay.
With less guys making the night program with the triple crown more guys will drop out because they have to.
When Jam and Clear Channel went thru their deal CC miraculously found more money for payouts because they had to.
Feld has 3 choices, continue the way they are, payout more each year or give the riders a better platform to secure sponsors because of having tv time (which is what Feld claims to be the value they are bringing to the table)
Maybe instead of watching stupid videos of people watching the race with miss sx that time could be doing a Monster Pit Crawl and highlighting the privateers.......I know dumb idea right?
Highlighting the privateer is a waste of resources. Unless your goal is to attract more privateers to the sport. Which it shouldnt be. This is PRO racing. It's not a participant driven business model, it is a exposure driven one. The promoter isnt living and dying on entree fees like this is your local amateur race. I think many fans confuse that which is why they have such a hard-on for the privateer as if the sport needs them.

Spend that time you suggested highlighting the smaller premier class teams. That would be productive.

Feld is making changes. That is why they are experimenting with the 3-moto format. And it was a success despite what the mob on Vital thinks. A guy like Brayton (who is on a real team) got massive "legitimate" TV time for his sponsors. So did Anderson. Eli got the win. Roczen was a focus. Barcia got airtime. The media exposure was spread out better than in any race Ive ever watched. Dont think this 3-moto format is going away, sponsors are going to favor it.

Dropping the "night show" qualifications & resulting payout is going to hurt dad & son racing. Oh well. This is not amateur sports.

And it's not like their isnt a feeder series they can go to. Arenacross is there. Im sure their is good contingency bonuses. The privateer has chances to make a living. Catering to them tho, is dragging down the premier events in the sport.

In fact, I'd suggest sending the entire 250 class to Arenacross. Let SX be 450 only. One class, all the premier teams.

Factory Honda
Factory Yamaha
Factory Kawasaki
Factory KTM
Factory Husqvarna

JGR Suzuki
PC Kawasaki
TLD KTM
FC Honda
MC Honda

That is 10 elite teams right there. Focus all the media on them and give them revenue sharing. MotoGP is doing very well following this model. Make the grid spots valuable so that the OEM's are forced to support their satellite teams in order to keep them.

This isnt radical theory. It's proven in other motorsports. Heck, it was the model at one time when the motocross GP's were the premier series in the world.
kkawboy14
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1/25/2018 12:54pm Edited Date/Time 1/25/2018 12:56pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
I’m a fan of the winners should get more and reducing it on down for incentive to win. I comment mostly about this stuff as a...
I’m a fan of the winners should get more and reducing it on down for incentive to win. I comment mostly about this stuff as a fan of the little guy and as a business man. I’ve had a number of friends who had to quit racing pro when their dads quit paying the bills. The dads realized that for the most part pro Racing was a bottomless pit.
As a business guy I realize the guys who work for me have to make a living wage, if they can’t live off of what I pay them, they will have to leave even if they want to stay.
With less guys making the night program with the triple crown more guys will drop out because they have to.
When Jam and Clear Channel went thru their deal CC miraculously found more money for payouts because they had to.
Feld has 3 choices, continue the way they are, payout more each year or give the riders a better platform to secure sponsors because of having tv time (which is what Feld claims to be the value they are bringing to the table)
Maybe instead of watching stupid videos of people watching the race with miss sx that time could be doing a Monster Pit Crawl and highlighting the privateers.......I know dumb idea right?
Highlighting the privateer is a waste of resources. Unless your goal is to attract more privateers to the sport. Which it shouldnt be. This is PRO...
Highlighting the privateer is a waste of resources. Unless your goal is to attract more privateers to the sport. Which it shouldnt be. This is PRO racing. It's not a participant driven business model, it is a exposure driven one. The promoter isnt living and dying on entree fees like this is your local amateur race. I think many fans confuse that which is why they have such a hard-on for the privateer as if the sport needs them.

Spend that time you suggested highlighting the smaller premier class teams. That would be productive.

Feld is making changes. That is why they are experimenting with the 3-moto format. And it was a success despite what the mob on Vital thinks. A guy like Brayton (who is on a real team) got massive "legitimate" TV time for his sponsors. So did Anderson. Eli got the win. Roczen was a focus. Barcia got airtime. The media exposure was spread out better than in any race Ive ever watched. Dont think this 3-moto format is going away, sponsors are going to favor it.

Dropping the "night show" qualifications & resulting payout is going to hurt dad & son racing. Oh well. This is not amateur sports.

And it's not like their isnt a feeder series they can go to. Arenacross is there. Im sure their is good contingency bonuses. The privateer has chances to make a living. Catering to them tho, is dragging down the premier events in the sport.

In fact, I'd suggest sending the entire 250 class to Arenacross. Let SX be 450 only. One class, all the premier teams.

Factory Honda
Factory Yamaha
Factory Kawasaki
Factory KTM
Factory Husqvarna

JGR Suzuki
PC Kawasaki
TLD KTM
FC Honda
MC Honda

That is 10 elite teams right there. Focus all the media on them and give them revenue sharing. MotoGP is doing very well following this model. Make the grid spots valuable so that the OEM's are forced to support their satellite teams in order to keep them.

This isnt radical theory. It's proven in other motorsports. Heck, it was the model at one time when the motocross GP's were the premier series in the world.
I agree with everything you said. Personally I love all the changes Feld has done. The privateers/small teams are the feeder system to the success of the industry in my opinion. I really don’t want to see 12 man mains, personally I would prefer watching 30 man mains, to me lappers create drama.
But I don’t tune in to see people watching sx on their bikes in their living rooms, I would prefer that time to be anything rider related.

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