Jeremy Martin resurrected the dead horse

hartebreak
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Edited Date/Time 6/8/2020 4:04pm
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat to death, but somethings gotta change. I get it that the 250 class meant as a stepping stone for riders to get to the 450s or "premier class", but now days, riders doing their 2 to 3 years in 250s and moving up is more the exception than the rule.
The obvious talent and performance gap between the classes now days is nothing like it was back in the 250/125 classes and the 250 class is just as competitive and exciting to watch as the 450s. The AMA and Feld really need to do some brainstorming and figure out a way to make this shit work. The 250 class needs to be on par with the 450s, if a rider wants to stay there and race his entire career, so be it. There has got to be a way for the factories and teams to be able to groom and support young riders on their way up without having this current system. Think of how much good racing our sport has missed out on due to riders throwing races (or sitting out a season) because they couldnt risk getting bumped up.
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RG1
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6/7/2020 9:57am
hartebreak wrote:
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat...
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat to death, but somethings gotta change. I get it that the 250 class meant as a stepping stone for riders to get to the 450s or "premier class", but now days, riders doing their 2 to 3 years in 250s and moving up is more the exception than the rule.
The obvious talent and performance gap between the classes now days is nothing like it was back in the 250/125 classes and the 250 class is just as competitive and exciting to watch as the 450s. The AMA and Feld really need to do some brainstorming and figure out a way to make this shit work. The 250 class needs to be on par with the 450s, if a rider wants to stay there and race his entire career, so be it. There has got to be a way for the factories and teams to be able to groom and support young riders on their way up without having this current system. Think of how much good racing our sport has missed out on due to riders throwing races (or sitting out a season) because they couldnt risk getting bumped up.
The 250 class is just as competitive as the 450 class? It really isn’t. 4th place got lapped at the first SLC race in the 250 class.
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HusqFan3
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6/7/2020 10:27am
hartebreak wrote:
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat...
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat to death, but somethings gotta change. I get it that the 250 class meant as a stepping stone for riders to get to the 450s or "premier class", but now days, riders doing their 2 to 3 years in 250s and moving up is more the exception than the rule.
The obvious talent and performance gap between the classes now days is nothing like it was back in the 250/125 classes and the 250 class is just as competitive and exciting to watch as the 450s. The AMA and Feld really need to do some brainstorming and figure out a way to make this shit work. The 250 class needs to be on par with the 450s, if a rider wants to stay there and race his entire career, so be it. There has got to be a way for the factories and teams to be able to groom and support young riders on their way up without having this current system. Think of how much good racing our sport has missed out on due to riders throwing races (or sitting out a season) because they couldnt risk getting bumped up.
RG1 wrote:
The 250 class is just as competitive as the 450 class? It really isn’t. 4th place got lapped at the first SLC race in the 250...
The 250 class is just as competitive as the 450 class? It really isn’t. 4th place got lapped at the first SLC race in the 250 class.
Agreed. Although practically impossible for the 250 SX class to as competitive as the 450 class when A) it’s talent is split in 1/2 Cool riders are forced to move up to 450 irrespective of whether there’s a factory ride waiting for them.in the premiere class.

The 259 talent this year is especially concentrated in the west.
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hartebreak
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6/7/2020 10:32am Edited Date/Time 6/7/2020 10:32am
hartebreak wrote:
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat...
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat to death, but somethings gotta change. I get it that the 250 class meant as a stepping stone for riders to get to the 450s or "premier class", but now days, riders doing their 2 to 3 years in 250s and moving up is more the exception than the rule.
The obvious talent and performance gap between the classes now days is nothing like it was back in the 250/125 classes and the 250 class is just as competitive and exciting to watch as the 450s. The AMA and Feld really need to do some brainstorming and figure out a way to make this shit work. The 250 class needs to be on par with the 450s, if a rider wants to stay there and race his entire career, so be it. There has got to be a way for the factories and teams to be able to groom and support young riders on their way up without having this current system. Think of how much good racing our sport has missed out on due to riders throwing races (or sitting out a season) because they couldnt risk getting bumped up.
RG1 wrote:
The 250 class is just as competitive as the 450 class? It really isn’t. 4th place got lapped at the first SLC race in the 250...
The 250 class is just as competitive as the 450 class? It really isn’t. 4th place got lapped at the first SLC race in the 250 class.
HusqFan3 wrote:
Agreed. Although practically impossible for the 250 SX class to as competitive as the 450 class when A) it’s talent is split in 1/2 B) riders...
Agreed. Although practically impossible for the 250 SX class to as competitive as the 450 class when A) it’s talent is split in 1/2 Cool riders are forced to move up to 450 irrespective of whether there’s a factory ride waiting for them.in the premiere class.

The 259 talent this year is especially concentrated in the west.
Agreed!!!! considering the class is divided in 1/2 (east, west), it is already pretty exciting and would become way more stacked if riders werent forced up or out (Canada, Europe).
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The Shop

plowboy
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6/7/2020 10:47am
I'm old. I remember and loved when there was a 125, 250, and open class series. No pointing out or age limits...just masters of each discipline. I know the Open class was considered "premier" but I don't think anyone looked down on Gaston Rahier for specializing. It's tougher in SX for an up and comer because of a 22/20 man gate vs the 40 in outdoors but I have no problem with a 30+ year old running the quarter liter class. Just let them race.
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lostboy819
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6/7/2020 10:51am Edited Date/Time 6/7/2020 11:01am
Get rid of the east vs west and make it one series that you can stay in as long as you want. Let smaller guys or guys who are better 250 riders make it a career class if they want.

Edit: Plowboy beat me to it.
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6/7/2020 11:01am
RG1 wrote:
The 250 class is just as competitive as the 450 class? It really isn’t. 4th place got lapped at the first SLC race in the 250...
The 250 class is just as competitive as the 450 class? It really isn’t. 4th place got lapped at the first SLC race in the 250 class.
I agree, bowers said on the pulp show the lites class is a joke compared to racing in the 450s
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Kawi15
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6/7/2020 11:03am
Job Security. Smile
JeremyK
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6/7/2020 11:03am
Maybe they need a completely stock class in addition to the 2 classes already.
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Motoxdoc
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6/7/2020 11:10am Edited Date/Time 6/7/2020 11:22am
hartebreak wrote:
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat...
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat to death, but somethings gotta change. I get it that the 250 class meant as a stepping stone for riders to get to the 450s or "premier class", but now days, riders doing their 2 to 3 years in 250s and moving up is more the exception than the rule.
The obvious talent and performance gap between the classes now days is nothing like it was back in the 250/125 classes and the 250 class is just as competitive and exciting to watch as the 450s. The AMA and Feld really need to do some brainstorming and figure out a way to make this shit work. The 250 class needs to be on par with the 450s, if a rider wants to stay there and race his entire career, so be it. There has got to be a way for the factories and teams to be able to groom and support young riders on their way up without having this current system. Think of how much good racing our sport has missed out on due to riders throwing races (or sitting out a season) because they couldnt risk getting bumped up.
RG1 wrote:
The 250 class is just as competitive as the 450 class? It really isn’t. 4th place got lapped at the first SLC race in the 250...
The 250 class is just as competitive as the 450 class? It really isn’t. 4th place got lapped at the first SLC race in the 250 class.
JMart got lapped?Huh ....then maybe the OP is right and the rules shouldn't force him to move up.

I always thought the main reason they split the series and force the "big dogs" to move up was to make it more affordable for the privateers and give them more of a chance to be competitive in the 250's....half a series, less traveling, faster guys forced to move up etc. But from what I understand, a lot of privateers races 450's because it's cheaper and easier to be competitive and make money; go figure.
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RG1
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6/7/2020 11:12am
hartebreak wrote:
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat...
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat to death, but somethings gotta change. I get it that the 250 class meant as a stepping stone for riders to get to the 450s or "premier class", but now days, riders doing their 2 to 3 years in 250s and moving up is more the exception than the rule.
The obvious talent and performance gap between the classes now days is nothing like it was back in the 250/125 classes and the 250 class is just as competitive and exciting to watch as the 450s. The AMA and Feld really need to do some brainstorming and figure out a way to make this shit work. The 250 class needs to be on par with the 450s, if a rider wants to stay there and race his entire career, so be it. There has got to be a way for the factories and teams to be able to groom and support young riders on their way up without having this current system. Think of how much good racing our sport has missed out on due to riders throwing races (or sitting out a season) because they couldnt risk getting bumped up.
RG1 wrote:
The 250 class is just as competitive as the 450 class? It really isn’t. 4th place got lapped at the first SLC race in the 250...
The 250 class is just as competitive as the 450 class? It really isn’t. 4th place got lapped at the first SLC race in the 250 class.
Motoxdoc wrote:
JMart got lapped?:huh: ....then maybe the OP is right and the rules shouldn't force him to move up. I always thought the main reason they split...
JMart got lapped?Huh ....then maybe the OP is right and the rules shouldn't force him to move up.

I always thought the main reason they split the series and force the "big dogs" to move up was to make it more affordable for the privateers and give them more of a chance to be competitive in the 250's....half a series, less traveling, faster guys forced to move up etc. But from what I understand, a lot of privateers races 450's because it's cheaper and easier to be competitive and make money; go figure.
5th place then, point still stands. It’s nowhere near as competitive as the 450 class
Berm
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6/7/2020 11:26am
Or they could go the other way with the rules.

You're only allowed X years in the 250 class - get injured, that's just bad luck. No extra rules to defend the championship - you won already you don't need to defend a stepping-stone class, it would be like defending your 250B title.

If the rules allow a very open 250 class, it makes it harder for a rookie to get their feet wet since the 250 class now becomes much more competitive.
If the rules allow a very closed 250 class, it makes it harder for non-champions to get 450 rides since the 450 class gets stacked fast. This would limit the careers of those guys who aren't at the top of their game.

Limiting the 250 class helps rookies. Making the 250 class unlimited will make it tougher for rookies. So I guess the question is, should we make things easier for rookies or harder in the interest of veterans?
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KX500
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6/7/2020 11:33am
If Honda wants Mr. Martin to ride their 250, what difference does it make to anybody else?

And from the Honda viewpoint, it makes sense as they have no 450 ride for him next year.

So how do they keep him for at least 1 more year?

It seems like a compliment to me, for Honda to say we want you back and this is how we go about making that happen.

And with Ferrandis, Sexton & McElrath all moving up, pickings are bound to be slim.

Who all is retiring from the 450 class and which ones will simply be without a job because a team wants to give Ferrandis or McElrath a shot?

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lostboy819
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6/7/2020 11:49am
Some guys are just small and a 250 is better for them. Privateers are at more of a disadvantage in the 250 class because of the cost to have a competitive motor, but I would much rather see the really good factory 250 riders stay on 250s if they want and have a bunch of guys who can win on 250s hammering it out every week.
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-MAVERICK-
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6/7/2020 11:57am
lostboy819 wrote:
Get rid of the east vs west and make it one series that you can stay in as long as you want. Let smaller guys or...
Get rid of the east vs west and make it one series that you can stay in as long as you want. Let smaller guys or guys who are better 250 riders make it a career class if they want.

Edit: Plowboy beat me to it.
Keep East and West, just get rid of the pointing out rule.
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1
6/7/2020 11:57am
If the top 3 are lapping 4th place there is nothing professional about the class. Move those top 3 to the real pro class and problem solved. Either that or make it 17 rounds and 20m races like the pros. I care as much about their incomes as they do mine.
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1down5up
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6/7/2020 12:07pm
so back in the day of 3 classes. didnt it sell bikes? what im leading to is, the manufactures main objective is to sell models.it seems like if you put the best 250 specialists & 450 specialists on the bikes ,it would be a selling tool. why cant this be in todays times. enough of the feeder 250 class vs 450 premier class.
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JustMX
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6/7/2020 12:12pm Edited Date/Time 6/7/2020 12:32pm
plowboy wrote:
I'm old. I remember and loved when there was a 125, 250, and open class series. No pointing out or age limits...just masters of each discipline...
I'm old. I remember and loved when there was a 125, 250, and open class series. No pointing out or age limits...just masters of each discipline. I know the Open class was considered "premier" but I don't think anyone looked down on Gaston Rahier for specializing. It's tougher in SX for an up and comer because of a 22/20 man gate vs the 40 in outdoors but I have no problem with a 30+ year old running the quarter liter class. Just let them race.
You might clarify that you remember that in motocross.

All 3 have never raced in the same season of professional supercross.

Working off memory here, but the last year of the 500 Supercross class was 1976.

The 250 class became the premier class in 1977 and was the sole professional class until, again memory, 1985 when 125 east and west classes were introduced as an entry level class. I don't seem to remember a lot of talk about an advancement system the first year, but hey, 35 years ago, ya know.

I think after the first year an advancement system was introduced and factories got really involved in supporting teams.

It has been a farce since, but you know, 20th century ama.

What needs to done, imo, do away with 450 class. The bikes are way to fast anyway.

Probably too late for a class smaller than 250 so how about an introductory class like the 125 class was originally intended to be.

Leave them on 250fs, but come up with some way to lower the costs some and level out the performance. Examples could be restrictor plates in intake or exhaust, approved mapping, claiming on exhaust systems, suspension, and ecms , maybe even something similar to "crate" motors that have become popular in dirt track car racing.
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Sluggo77
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6/7/2020 12:38pm
There are not enough factory 450 jobs. Honda for example, only pays for one 450 "A" level SX rider, plus one "B" rider.
Back in the day they had as many as 5 'A" riders for SX. It was different in MX as well. The 125 class was not considered a development class. Winning that title was a big achievement and the rider who won the title was highly respected. Today J-Mart is a 2-time MX champ and no one cares.
It was cool to have 3 MX class champions, plus a lot more star factory riders from MX all racing against each other in the premier 250 SX series.
Marketing the professional 250f class in SX as a B class has not worked as intended and possibly lowered the prestige of the outdoor title in the process.
Oh well, maybe I'm old and miss the old days.
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TDeath21
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6/7/2020 12:47pm
How about this format:

250 class split into coasts. Minimum age: 15. Maximum age: 20. This replaces the SX Futures and they race the track the next day, obviously being a tamed down version. We can watch with NBC Gold. Similar to the 125 class the GPs have.

250 class as we know it now runs the full schedule. No pointing out rule. Minimum age is 16.

450s stay the same.

However, to ensure that the best talent does get up to the 450 to race each other, have the purse payouts to where last in the 450 main makes more than 1st in the 250 main. Obviously sponsors and what not will pay whatever and that's out of the control of anyone. But the purse needs to be changed. As it is now, 4th in the 450s makes less purse money than 1st in the 250s. That's absurd.

Just an idea.
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Sluggo77
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6/7/2020 1:25pm
I miss the works bikes. If you rode one you were a superstar. Didn't matter if you were only 16 and it was a 125 or even a 250 in SX like Lechien was allowed to do.He even won a round.
All this support, split coast, developmental stuff hurts the imagine of the sport.
If amateurs need SX experience have it the day before or after.
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Racerman967
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6/7/2020 1:25pm
The logical solution IMO would be to get rid of the pointing out process.
Make the 250's a full season and add a support class with a simple 2 year limit.125's or 250' doesn't matter to me.
They run their heats before the night show, top 10 from each heat to the main.
10 minute main shown during the broadcast.
Make that East/West and if you win the championship you are moved up automatically. PERIOD.

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Spudinki45
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6/7/2020 1:34pm
Haven't seen this mentioned but why can't Martin race the remaining rounds and pull off with a few laps left so he doesn't point out?
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Racerman967
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6/7/2020 1:36pm
Spudinki45 wrote:
Haven't seen this mentioned but why can't Martin race the remaining rounds and pull off with a few laps left so he doesn't point out?
Because points are given to each racer in the main. And no point in racing just for a heat. And it sounds like he is on th number right now
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-MAVERICK-
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6/7/2020 1:37pm
Spudinki45 wrote:
Haven't seen this mentioned but why can't Martin race the remaining rounds and pull off with a few laps left so he doesn't point out?
Why put wear and tear on parts when you don't have to?
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Spudinki45
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6/7/2020 1:39pm Edited Date/Time 6/7/2020 1:40pm
Spudinki45 wrote:
Haven't seen this mentioned but why can't Martin race the remaining rounds and pull off with a few laps left so he doesn't point out?
Because points are given to each racer in the main. And no point in racing just for a heat. And it sounds like he is on...
Because points are given to each racer in the main. And no point in racing just for a heat. And it sounds like he is on th number right now
But if he pulled off before he got into lappers he could be credited with a DNF and finish around 20-22nd place and would only collect a few points since he still has about 20 points to go before he points out.
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lestat
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6/7/2020 1:52pm
Spudinki45 wrote:
Haven't seen this mentioned but why can't Martin race the remaining rounds and pull off with a few laps left so he doesn't point out?
Great idea . Let’s make the sport look more bush league than it already does .
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kiwifan
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6/7/2020 2:26pm Edited Date/Time 6/7/2020 5:51pm
hartebreak wrote:
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat...
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat to death, but somethings gotta change. I get it that the 250 class meant as a stepping stone for riders to get to the 450s or "premier class", but now days, riders doing their 2 to 3 years in 250s and moving up is more the exception than the rule.
The obvious talent and performance gap between the classes now days is nothing like it was back in the 250/125 classes and the 250 class is just as competitive and exciting to watch as the 450s. The AMA and Feld really need to do some brainstorming and figure out a way to make this shit work. The 250 class needs to be on par with the 450s, if a rider wants to stay there and race his entire career, so be it. There has got to be a way for the factories and teams to be able to groom and support young riders on their way up without having this current system. Think of how much good racing our sport has missed out on due to riders throwing races (or sitting out a season) because they couldnt risk getting bumped up.
I thought it was Vitards who resurrected the dead horse.....personally I dont give a shit, teams/riders play by the rules whether others like it or not. Until rules are changed then it is what it is.
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6/7/2020 3:16pm
I don’t ‘get’ the age thing and needing it to “encourage more talent”
I couldn’t care if a rider is 16 or 36, let the best riders ride the bikes.
If the young ‘talent’ isn’t good enough to beat the ‘old’ guard then tough titties, get better.
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