Jason Weigandt - Ways to slow down the 450s

Hank_Thrill
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Edited Date/Time 4/9/2022 11:21am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qER_M7lG_n0

Interesting video someone his caliber is raising the question about restrictor plates. I could see how some riders would be against it since it would take away their advantage. I think it would lead to closer racing since the cream of the crop wouldn't be able to pull away like they do.

Having less traction on a rear tire is interesting as well. If that were to happen I would like to see riders still have the same front traction to lessen the odds of washing the front end like Anderson did a few weeks back.
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Joey_Bridges
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4/4/2022 1:59pm
Plates would give a huge advantage to the guys who don't rev the crap out of their bike.
And could lead to a bigger jamb up in the first turn than we have now.
Never going to happen.

The tyre idea makes great sense.
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Zycki11
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4/4/2022 2:18pm
Clearly the video is out of the box thinking to generate new ideas. He along with many others including myself feel that 450s have become too fast and too easy to ride supercross.
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The Shop

yak651
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4/4/2022 2:24pm
Easy solution. 250 mods for the elite guys in SX (Eli, Anderson, KR, etc) and 250 stock (maybe suspension mods) for the East/West support class. Still race 450s outdoors
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Motodave15
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4/4/2022 2:36pm
yak651 wrote:
Easy solution. 250 mods for the elite guys in SX (Eli, Anderson, KR, etc) and 250 stock (maybe suspension mods) for the East/West support class. Still...
Easy solution. 250 mods for the elite guys in SX (Eli, Anderson, KR, etc) and 250 stock (maybe suspension mods) for the East/West support class. Still race 450s outdoors
Exactly what me and my pops have talked about since rc and james on 450s in supercross... Why nobody else sees this as a good idea is beyond us.

its such a simple fix that would be frankly awesome without changing too much of the status quo.
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4/4/2022 2:53pm Edited Date/Time 4/4/2022 2:54pm
So 450’s are to fast. Buy yet the 250’s run they same times.







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yak651
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4/4/2022 2:54pm
yak651 wrote:
Easy solution. 250 mods for the elite guys in SX (Eli, Anderson, KR, etc) and 250 stock (maybe suspension mods) for the East/West support class. Still...
Easy solution. 250 mods for the elite guys in SX (Eli, Anderson, KR, etc) and 250 stock (maybe suspension mods) for the East/West support class. Still race 450s outdoors
Motodave15 wrote:
Exactly what me and my pops have talked about since rc and james on 450s in supercross... Why nobody else sees this as a good idea...
Exactly what me and my pops have talked about since rc and james on 450s in supercross... Why nobody else sees this as a good idea is beyond us.

its such a simple fix that would be frankly awesome without changing too much of the status quo.
Right, only other solution would be 350s for SX but that would require retooling for 4 of the manufacturers. This change everyone has a bike already.

Can you imagine the intensity with all the elite guys going for it on 250s? Plus a couple track changes where riders can't make obstacles with block passes out of the corners, IMO racing would be much more competitive.
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MXMattii
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4/4/2022 2:59pm
Unpopular opinion that will make our combustion engine longer: Lower DB exhausts (I remember Geico making Josh Grant his 250 as fast as all the 450 bikes at the Jeremy McGrath invitational just because the DB-Rules weren't applying that night) and using different fuel, maybe even bio fuel with less power in it.
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FahQ
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4/4/2022 3:00pm
Geez, how do we make today’s racing like it was before four strokes?
Hmmmm
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yak651
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So 450’s are to fast. Buy yet the 250’s run they same times. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/04/04/542059/s1200_4CA95AC9_CBB8_441B_8021_41748C8D8C6F.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/04/04/542062/s1200_0CE72A98_3EE3_4990_A727_D45F2BCCAFEC.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/04/04/542061/s1200_8D89497B_61BB_4D80_AE56_10464467D1B9.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/04/04/542060/s1200_7213E456_2C50_40D7_A20E_C46F1AFCCA58.jpg[/img]
So 450’s are to fast. Buy yet the 250’s run they same times.







That's what we are saying. 250's are plenty for inside stadiums. No need for 450s and would keep racing closer as more people are able to go WFO on a 250 vs a 450. Or do what FahQ is suggesting...
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Richy
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4/4/2022 3:09pm
yak651 wrote:
Right, only other solution would be 350s for SX but that would require retooling for 4 of the manufacturers. This change everyone has a bike already...
Right, only other solution would be 350s for SX but that would require retooling for 4 of the manufacturers. This change everyone has a bike already.

Can you imagine the intensity with all the elite guys going for it on 250s? Plus a couple track changes where riders can't make obstacles with block passes out of the corners, IMO racing would be much more competitive.
I don't really get the 350 re-tooling argument, although this isn't aimed at you yak, more the companies themselves.

Obviously it is a factor and a handful of different castings and/or forged components would be needed, but going off of KTM's model are we only talking a different cylinder, piston, rod and maybe crank? Those aren't masses of changes and money to a company who already offers a solid 250.

It seems pretty insignificant in the scale of producing a range of bikes and it would let the Japanese take a big bite out of the Austrian's market and it would solve this recurring "450's are too much" issue that's brought up. If even Tomac's said before thet 450's are too much, at their elitest of the elite level, they're probably too much?
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Zycki11
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4/4/2022 3:17pm
So 450’s are to fast. Buy yet the 250’s run they same times. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/04/04/542059/s1200_4CA95AC9_CBB8_441B_8021_41748C8D8C6F.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/04/04/542062/s1200_0CE72A98_3EE3_4990_A727_D45F2BCCAFEC.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/04/04/542061/s1200_8D89497B_61BB_4D80_AE56_10464467D1B9.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/04/04/542060/s1200_7213E456_2C50_40D7_A20E_C46F1AFCCA58.jpg[/img]
So 450’s are to fast. Buy yet the 250’s run they same times.







When will people understand this is simply not a good argument? You know if your bike is too fast you don’t push as hard and a 250 seems to be the great cc middle ground of power and still pushing.
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Sandusky26
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4/4/2022 3:27pm
If you slow the 450’s down you also need to slow the 250’s down.

I think fuel and sound could slow them down enough.
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Joey_Bridges
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4/4/2022 3:45pm Edited Date/Time 4/4/2022 3:46pm
Sandusky26 wrote:
If you slow the 450’s down you also need to slow the 250’s down.

I think fuel and sound could slow them down enough.
I remember them talking about that on pulpmx right after the race where everyone was fumed out.

Why was special racing fuel needed.
Regulating octane might not be a bad idea.
Anything other than forcing manufacturers to alter what they're already tooled up to produce.
That's why 350's, and a move back to 125/250's, and even two strokes aren't a viable option.

Tyres and octane restrictions are the only solution.
Or do nothing.
But it does seem that the riders are becoming more vocal about the tracks tearing up.
Which ultimately has them riding around in survival mode once the running orders are set, about mid race or so.
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arebnac
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4/4/2022 3:46pm
2stroke bikes, tracks with actual different designs (that are more challenging and "irregular"), DOT tires, a decent broadcast team...
Hmmm sounds easier to just start a new SX series. Maybe under Amsoil's Snowcross/Short Course umbrella? Outlaws? USAC?
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neverwas
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4/4/2022 3:46pm
He is the announcer the American Flat Tack series and he got the idea from that series. the Triumphs have to use restrictor plates so the Harleys can be competitive.It seems to work pretty well.
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arebnac
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arebnac wrote:
2stroke bikes, tracks with actual different designs (that are more challenging and "irregular"), DOT tires, a decent broadcast team... Hmmm sounds easier to just start a...
2stroke bikes, tracks with actual different designs (that are more challenging and "irregular"), DOT tires, a decent broadcast team...
Hmmm sounds easier to just start a new SX series. Maybe under Amsoil's Snowcross/Short Course umbrella? Outlaws? USAC?
Hmmmmm Nitro Circus!!!! hahah
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bvm111
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4/4/2022 4:00pm
isn’t the point of racing to go as fast as possible… are you guys arguing that you want to see slower racing?
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RandomUserName
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i saw this the other day.
This is 125s obviously, but just WATCH HOW SLOW THE RACING IS. It's awkward and bumpy and less flow and rough and TOUGH.

This is the type of racing that keeps people from getting hurt like they do nowadays. And it's also why so many complain about SX - it's the same line by the the 1st through 20th guy for 20m and it makes the racing so hard to cheer for.

SLOW THEM DOWN and make it technical.
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Southwick198
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4/4/2022 4:15pm
yak651 wrote:
Easy solution. 250 mods for the elite guys in SX (Eli, Anderson, KR, etc) and 250 stock (maybe suspension mods) for the East/West support class. Still...
Easy solution. 250 mods for the elite guys in SX (Eli, Anderson, KR, etc) and 250 stock (maybe suspension mods) for the East/West support class. Still race 450s outdoors
You know. I like that idea. 450s outdoors
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Zycki11
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4/4/2022 4:24pm
bvm111 wrote:
isn’t the point of racing to go as fast as possible… are you guys arguing that you want to see slower racing?
The point is to have elite riders push the equipment to the max. When guys can clear triples from a dead stop in first gear it becomes an issue.
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Yeti831
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4/4/2022 4:59pm
If a 450 is too much, run a 350 in the premier class.

There, just solved the problem. Now quit fucking with the future of our thumpers 👍
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4/4/2022 5:01pm
Restrictor plate racing,
Yamaha make an exhaust washer that could be used on all bikes to even out the field,
it's a PW50 part number.
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bvm111
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4/4/2022 5:02pm
bvm111 wrote:
isn’t the point of racing to go as fast as possible… are you guys arguing that you want to see slower racing?
Zycki11 wrote:
The point is to have elite riders push the equipment to the max. When guys can clear triples from a dead stop in first gear it...
The point is to have elite riders push the equipment to the max. When guys can clear triples from a dead stop in first gear it becomes an issue.
I guess i just don’t see the issue that you guys do, just because Hughes and Weigant are complaining about a problem they are creating doesn’t mean its a problem that needs to be solved. Certainly this idea that we want to see 250 stock and mod and consider it a premier racing series is baffling as well.
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Brent
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4/4/2022 5:33pm
The guys I talk to want the power moved around so the bike is easier to ride, not less power.

When you are seat bouncing a big triple out of a corner you want all you can get, to short it would be dangerous.

But, if the Promoter keeps building more extreme tracks so the obstacles are not easy to clear, then the power versus track difficulty escalation race will continue.

If they want to slowly calm down bikes, then they should only allow a fuel that produces less horsepower than MR Pro 6 or Renegade SX4 (I think that the race fuel for KTM) , those fuels add so much to the bikes power.

They could also back off on some of the extreme obstacles at the same time, so maybe the top 10 wouldn't get away from the rest of the pack so quickly.

Who backs off first? less challenging tracks or less horsepower?
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500 Mike
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4/4/2022 5:56pm
One thing I see between today and the “old days” is suspension. It is SO much better now these guys can do just about any obstacle. They weren’t blitzing the whoops then…. they weren’t able to. Not sure how you “fix” this.

I do like the tire idea Jason brought up. Have Dunlop et al produce a “spec” tire that everyone has to run. It will help keep the tracks from breaking down.

Glad the subject of slowing these guys down is being discussed. Way too many guys getting seriously hurt….. and it sure doesn’t make the series more exciting when 1/2 to 2/3 of the top contenders are out by halfway through.

Will be interesting to see if any of the ideas being tossed about gain any traction with the AMA.
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Phil109
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4/4/2022 6:49pm
Adrenaline junkies want slower bikes. Figures lol

I grew up watching MC RC and bubba smoke everyone week in and week out and everyone was on 125/250 two strokes. The racing on the 450 bikes these days is the closest I’ve ever seen it. Besides Tomac’s latest streak it’s been a toss up. Even then it’s hard to predict who will win the coming weekend. Putting everyone on 250’s won’t change crap. Christian Craig and Jett constantly make everyone look slow in the 250 class. It’s not the bikes fault. Hell the 250’s are more predictable. If anything the 450’s at least take away the power advantage the factories always had in the two stroke days. I like watching the 450 guys tame the beast on the tight tracks.
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