Japanese v euro bikes

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2/10/2018 5:21 PM

Just a bit of a different spin on this development battle that Japan seems to be losing....

Maybe they don't care! Motocross is not big in Japan, not as big as it is in Europe/USA. They still make a good product, just not as good as there European counterpart.

Is it possible that this doesn't bother them? Maybe there executive team look at the areas that make them the most money and divert their attention, focus and development to those areas? Cars, road bikes, garden equipment, generators, piano's you name it. The euro's don't have these distractions, there focus is in an area that is very small in the grand scheme of the planet (dirt bikes), it just happens to be important to us.

My 2c.

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2/10/2018 5:34 PM

whoa dude this blows my mind, ive honestly never thought about asian motocross. Is that even a thing in any form?

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2/10/2018 5:40 PM

fullysicmate wrote:

Just a bit of a different spin on this development battle that Japan seems to be losing....

Maybe they don't care! Motocross is not big in Japan, not as big as it is in Europe/USA. They still make a good product, just not as good as there European counterpart.

Is it possible that this doesn't bother them? Maybe there executive team look at the areas that make them the most money and divert their attention, focus and development to those areas? Cars, road bikes, garden equipment, generators, piano's you name it. The euro's don't have these distractions, there focus is in an area that is very small in the grand scheme of the planet (dirt bikes), it just happens to be important to us.

My 2c.

U got it all wrong!

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2/10/2018 5:42 PM

Mummy_Napkin wrote:

whoa dude this blows my mind, ive honestly never thought about asian motocross. Is that even a thing in any form?

You need to chill. You’re new here.

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2/10/2018 5:56 PM

Mummy_Napkin wrote:

whoa dude this blows my mind, ive honestly never thought about asian motocross. Is that even a thing in any form?

Jmicmoto13 wrote:

You need to chill. You’re new here.

that wasn't sarcasm, I even got worried this sounded like a troll and went back and retyped it but ive been drinking all day . I know australia and europe are huge on dirt bike racing but ive legit never seen anything with asia

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2/10/2018 5:58 PM

holy fuck i look like a dick in that post, sorry @fully

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2/10/2018 5:58 PM

Mummy_Napkin wrote:

whoa dude this blows my mind, ive honestly never thought about asian motocross. Is that even a thing in any form?

Jmicmoto13 wrote:

You need to chill. You’re new here.

Mummy_Napkin wrote:

that wasn't sarcasm, I even got worried this sounded like a troll and went back and retyped it but ive been drinking all day . I know australia and europe are huge on dirt bike racing but ive legit never seen anything with asia

Yeah, it just occurred to me while I was mowing the lawn. My wife wasn't interested in discussing it so I thought I would post it here.

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2/10/2018 5:59 PM

Mummy_Napkin wrote:

holy fuck i look like a dick in that post, sorry @fully

All good I got it.

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2/10/2018 6:07 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/10/2018 6:08 PM

Jmicmoto13 wrote:

You need to chill. You’re new here.

Mummy_Napkin wrote:

that wasn't sarcasm, I even got worried this sounded like a troll and went back and retyped it but ive been drinking all day . I know australia and europe are huge on dirt bike racing but ive legit never seen anything with asia

fullysicmate wrote:

Yeah, it just occurred to me while I was mowing the lawn. My wife wasn't interested in discussing it so I thought I would post it here.

all that I can come up with is moto gp and car racing mean more to them, maybe they have their priorities set and the western dirt market doesnt mean as much anymore

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2/10/2018 6:33 PM

fullysicmate wrote:

Just a bit of a different spin on this development battle that Japan seems to be losing....

Maybe they don't care! Motocross is not big in Japan, not as big as it is in Europe/USA. They still make a good product, just not as good as there European counterpart.

Is it possible that this doesn't bother them? Maybe there executive team look at the areas that make them the most money and divert their attention, focus and development to those areas? Cars, road bikes, garden equipment, generators, piano's you name it. The euro's don't have these distractions, there focus is in an area that is very small in the grand scheme of the planet (dirt bikes), it just happens to be important to us.

My 2c.

I think it’s a little of what you stated. KTM/ Husky are 110% two wheels. And that’s it. The Japanese manufacturers have such a diverse portfolio of product offerings, it’s probably harder to allocate a larger budget for one small segment of total business. But like you said, it may be very small to the bean counters but is very important to us. I think cultural mindset probably plays a good bit in it as well. The Japanese are a little more methodical and typically slowly ramp up big change. The Euros are just going for it and all the new tech they have is sticking. The next couple years will be interesting in bike development.

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2/10/2018 6:39 PM

Husky does make chain saws, lawn mowers, and pressure washers, among other things... This thread brought to you by Ryan Dungey

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2/10/2018 6:42 PM

jj welks wrote:

Husky does make chain saws, lawn mowers, and pressure washers, among other things... This thread brought to you by Ryan Dungey

Not the same Husky

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Take it to the limit, one more time!

2/10/2018 6:44 PM

jj welks wrote:

Husky does make chain saws, lawn mowers, and pressure washers, among other things... This thread brought to you by Ryan Dungey

Pretty sure they are separate entities and have been since the 80’s. I could be wrong though.

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2/10/2018 6:48 PM

Ok plz tell me more about what the executives at Yamaha Kawi and Honda have been deciding

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2/10/2018 6:49 PM

jj welks wrote:

Ok plz tell me more about what the executives at Yamaha Kawi and Honda have been deciding

Huh?

Photo

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2/10/2018 6:54 PM

jj welks wrote:

Husky does make chain saws, lawn mowers, and pressure washers, among other things... This thread brought to you by Ryan Dungey

Husqvarna motorcycles while originally Swedish was sold to Cagiva in the 80's and is now owned by KTM in Austria. The Husqvarna you are talking about that makes chain saws etc. is still located in Sweden. In other words two completely different brands with a shared history.

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2/10/2018 7:09 PM

There is racing in Asia (Japan), but on a much smaller scale. Racing in Asia doesn't dictate what the manufactures produce in terms of dirt bikes, their target is overseas (predominately America and Europe).
Selling dirt bikes is tiny slice of what the Japanese manufactures do, and don't contribute much to their annual profits. Their efforts are in cars, road bikes and heavy industries. Priorities, and dirt bikes are low on the list.

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"Nothing happens until something moves"

2/12/2018 4:49 AM

lol. But the difference with that is those are moto industry gifts. You don’t see KTM having an appliance division and selling at department stores.

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2/12/2018 5:52 AM

I'm a dealer for Kawasaki small engines. That division is clueless as to what goes on in powersports and vise versa. The difference is 4 Japanese companies were built to compete with themselves. Everyone used the same suspension companies, the development schedule was the same. Everyone built with in the same type of design parameters, for example aluminum frames. KTM is turned that on its head with quicker development schedules, they own their own suspension company, use different design parameters and are willing to push the envelop more with the products themselves. Its actually way more obvious on the off road side than in MX. For example the EXC. That is bike that the Japanese will never make. Its way to close to an actual race bike for them to put a dual sport label on it. KTM knows full well that EXC's are not true dual sport bikes in that there are not designed for a daily rider. They are made for designed for the more serious off road guy that has to connect trails with roads where you have to be street legal. I also don't think your going to see EFI 2 strokes, 300cc 2 strokes, 350's ect from them. That is where KTM is really selling bikes also.

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2/12/2018 7:57 PM

dcg141 wrote:

I'm a dealer for Kawasaki small engines. That division is clueless as to what goes on in powersports and vise versa. The difference is 4 Japanese companies were built to compete with themselves. Everyone used the same suspension companies, the development schedule was the same. Everyone built with in the same type of design parameters, for example aluminum frames. KTM is turned that on its head with quicker development schedules, they own their own suspension company, use different design parameters and are willing to push the envelop more with the products themselves. Its actually way more obvious on the off road side than in MX. For example the EXC. That is bike that the Japanese will never make. Its way to close to an actual race bike for them to put a dual sport label on it. KTM knows full well that EXC's are not true dual sport bikes in that there are not designed for a daily rider. They are made for designed for the more serious off road guy that has to connect trails with roads where you have to be street legal. I also don't think your going to see EFI 2 strokes, 300cc 2 strokes, 350's ect from them. That is where KTM is really selling bikes also.

Good info. The newest MXA discusses the ease of production with the component and weld plug and play Aluminum frame production.
Pushing the envelope as KTM is able to do compared to Japan, and all the different models as you point out is obviously great and nice that they’re different.
Here’s some thoughts, and BTW you see the KTM vs. Japan bike threads on here ALL the time and they don’t go anywhere, so not interested in starting that. I firmly believe Japan got caught with its pants down with the 2015.5 KTM 450 FE and I don’t see it happening to that degree again. Japan has virtually caught up with examples from Honda and Yamaha, new KXF coming in ‘19. So IMHO they were lagging 2-3 years and they’ve caught up. I own KTM’s now and I’m very happy with them, but don’t believe they are blowing away the newest Japan bikes. The new CRF is really good, I’ve ridden one. Suspect the new Yamaha is also great. The chromoly steel frame has me sticking with KTM for now though.

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2/12/2018 8:58 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/12/2018 9:13 PM

As a consumer I really don't see KTM being that far advanced vs. the Japanese bikes for mx use. In 2016 KR94 made the outdated Suzuki look just as modern in the outdoors. ET3 I think won 9 races last yr. on the Kawi so it's not like KTM is dominating SX / MX at the pro level. Even at my local level I don't believe the Austria bikes would give me an edge at the local tracks.

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Speak softly and carry a big stick.

2/12/2018 11:34 PM

KTM's biggest advantage is their time to market. They seem to develop, test and market everything faster.
This advantage will likely go unchecked until they start to use it where it hurts the Japanese manufacturers where it counts: streetbikes or cars.
Until then, the OP is right: they don't care. They sell enough MX bikes to justify the tooling for now, and that is enough. They use motocross as an opportunity to get younger buyers onto their brands and hope the experience will carry over to a new 600cc sportbike, then a 1000cc sportbike, then a sport tourer or cruiser, etc. KTM does not compete in those later categories very well. (Yet.)

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Braaapin' aint easy.

2/13/2018 7:43 AM

Falcon wrote:

KTM's biggest advantage is their time to market. They seem to develop, test and market everything faster.
This advantage will likely go unchecked until they start to use it where it hurts the Japanese manufacturers where it counts: streetbikes or cars.
Until then, the OP is right: they don't care. They sell enough MX bikes to justify the tooling for now, and that is enough. They use motocross as an opportunity to get younger buyers onto their brands and hope the experience will carry over to a new 600cc sportbike, then a 1000cc sportbike, then a sport tourer or cruiser, etc. KTM does not compete in those later categories very well. (Yet.)

The thing is, when KTM gets more involved and grows large enough to mass produce street bikes and potentially cars, they will run into the same scenario's that the Japanese do and the turn around time for updated models will be comparable to the Japanese rates. Success doesn't always bring success.

IMHO in 2019 KTM will really feel the sting of Yamaha producing a competitive 65 and a new 85. Their years of price gouging the mini market might haunt them, especially when Japanese OEM parts are much more readily available and cheaper. Depending on how well Yamaha does, I see no reason why Kawasaki wouldn't reinvest in their mini model lineup as well

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2/13/2018 12:33 PM

These threads seem to start up every week how Euro bike manufacturers are better than the Japanese ones.

As mentioned a few times in this thread, KTM have a massive advantage compared to Honda/Kawasaki/Suzuki/Yamaha, their manufacturing R&D/production lines have a much smaller lineup of bikes to build, therefore they are capable of doing much more in a shorter time.

If, for example, Kawasaki was to stop producing most of their road bikes then you would probably see a Euro-like bike (in saying that some non-Euro bikes are getting a lot closer to Euros as evidenced in shootouts this year), as they could dedicate a lot more resources to it. Doing that of course would result in a lot of jobs lost, smaller profits (upsetting shareholders), smaller dealerships, etc etc etc ...the flow on effect would be major, but you would get a better dirt bike (potentially).

However, KTM (especially) are stating to produce a lot more road bikes, it is entirely feasible that it will get to a stage when they cannot design/test/build/etc their bikes at the pace they do now.

The margins on a dirt bike are no where near the margin on a road bike (likely why KTM are producing more road bikes), hence why non-Euro manufacturers focus more on the road bikes, thats their bread and butter profits.

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Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

2/13/2018 1:43 PM

kiwifan wrote:

These threads seem to start up every week how Euro bike manufacturers are better than the Japanese ones.

As mentioned a few times in this thread, KTM have a massive advantage compared to Honda/Kawasaki/Suzuki/Yamaha, their manufacturing R&D/production lines have a much smaller lineup of bikes to build, therefore they are capable of doing much more in a shorter time.

If, for example, Kawasaki was to stop producing most of their road bikes then you would probably see a Euro-like bike (in saying that some non-Euro bikes are getting a lot closer to Euros as evidenced in shootouts this year), as they could dedicate a lot more resources to it. Doing that of course would result in a lot of jobs lost, smaller profits (upsetting shareholders), smaller dealerships, etc etc etc ...the flow on effect would be major, but you would get a better dirt bike (potentially).

However, KTM (especially) are stating to produce a lot more road bikes, it is entirely feasible that it will get to a stage when they cannot design/test/build/etc their bikes at the pace they do now.

The margins on a dirt bike are no where near the margin on a road bike (likely why KTM are producing more road bikes), hence why non-Euro manufacturers focus more on the road bikes, thats their bread and butter profits.

But are the margins on road bikes more than off road bikes? In Australia a new R6 is the same price as a new KTM500exc, a Triumph tiger 800xc costs less. I see a lot more bike for you dollar in the road bikes, so is the margin greater?

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2/13/2018 2:07 PM

kiwifan wrote:

These threads seem to start up every week how Euro bike manufacturers are better than the Japanese ones.

As mentioned a few times in this thread, KTM have a massive advantage compared to Honda/Kawasaki/Suzuki/Yamaha, their manufacturing R&D/production lines have a much smaller lineup of bikes to build, therefore they are capable of doing much more in a shorter time.

If, for example, Kawasaki was to stop producing most of their road bikes then you would probably see a Euro-like bike (in saying that some non-Euro bikes are getting a lot closer to Euros as evidenced in shootouts this year), as they could dedicate a lot more resources to it. Doing that of course would result in a lot of jobs lost, smaller profits (upsetting shareholders), smaller dealerships, etc etc etc ...the flow on effect would be major, but you would get a better dirt bike (potentially).

However, KTM (especially) are stating to produce a lot more road bikes, it is entirely feasible that it will get to a stage when they cannot design/test/build/etc their bikes at the pace they do now.

The margins on a dirt bike are no where near the margin on a road bike (likely why KTM are producing more road bikes), hence why non-Euro manufacturers focus more on the road bikes, thats their bread and butter profits.

fullysicmate wrote:

But are the margins on road bikes more than off road bikes? In Australia a new R6 is the same price as a new KTM500exc, a Triumph tiger 800xc costs less. I see a lot more bike for you dollar in the road bikes, so is the margin greater?

My understanding is yes road bikes have a greater margin ...happy for someone to prove me wrong smile

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Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

2/13/2018 5:56 PM

kiwifan wrote:

These threads seem to start up every week how Euro bike manufacturers are better than the Japanese ones.

As mentioned a few times in this thread, KTM have a massive advantage compared to Honda/Kawasaki/Suzuki/Yamaha, their manufacturing R&D/production lines have a much smaller lineup of bikes to build, therefore they are capable of doing much more in a shorter time.

If, for example, Kawasaki was to stop producing most of their road bikes then you would probably see a Euro-like bike (in saying that some non-Euro bikes are getting a lot closer to Euros as evidenced in shootouts this year), as they could dedicate a lot more resources to it. Doing that of course would result in a lot of jobs lost, smaller profits (upsetting shareholders), smaller dealerships, etc etc etc ...the flow on effect would be major, but you would get a better dirt bike (potentially).

However, KTM (especially) are stating to produce a lot more road bikes, it is entirely feasible that it will get to a stage when they cannot design/test/build/etc their bikes at the pace they do now.

The margins on a dirt bike are no where near the margin on a road bike (likely why KTM are producing more road bikes), hence why non-Euro manufacturers focus more on the road bikes, thats their bread and butter profits.

fullysicmate wrote:

But are the margins on road bikes more than off road bikes? In Australia a new R6 is the same price as a new KTM500exc, a Triumph tiger 800xc costs less. I see a lot more bike for you dollar in the road bikes, so is the margin greater?

kiwifan wrote:

My understanding is yes road bikes have a greater margin ...happy for someone to prove me wrong smile

I would like to know the answer as well, for me it is hard to stand beside the latest 110kg enduro bike, and the latest 220kg road bike and understand how the enduro bike costs more. I believe economies of scale would come into play with the road bikes though, so that may be the difference.

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