JGR/Factory Suzuki significance - remind me?

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10/17/2017 6:36 AM
Edited Date/Time: 10/17/2017 6:37 AM

In the Jimmy D thread someone mentioned questioning if JGR was truly capable of developing a championship contending bike (relevant to the thread due to PulpMX Show last night saying Jimmy D may be headed to JGR for a 250 SX ride)

From a support and resources aspect, can someone remind me what the true significance is of an official partnership between JGR and Factory Suzuki? I've gone back and re-read the press releases about the announcement, but it seems like the big take away is the increased focus on building an amateur program (RM Army) similar to Kawi's Team Green and KTM's Orange Brigade. Not really seeing or hearing anything about increased communication or sharing of resources between Suzuki Japan and the JGR squad (is that supposed to be a given?)

I know JGR is already very well equipped as far as in-house capabilities and resources go, but has their been any comments about how the JGR/Suzuki factory effort and the synergies that come along with it will actually result in "building a better mousetrap", not just a better amateur support program?

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Positively, absolutely 110% obsessed with anything MOTO.

10/17/2017 6:40 AM

I think they can contend for a championship. I mean stew did win on the JGR Yamaha a few times. I think they just got unlucky with Barcia. I think Hill will win races and a be a top guy all 250 SX.

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10/17/2017 7:15 AM

For what its worth, on jgr's instagram they spoke about being able to work directly with Suzuki as one of the plus sides to the deal. So i would imagine they are working together on the bike development. Im probably wrong, but thats how i read it

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10/17/2017 7:28 AM
Edited Date/Time: 10/17/2017 8:56 AM

It was me who questioned that, but to be specific: It's not really so much that I question if JGR has the resources to build a great bike. They do.

But I question whether they have the resources and, more importantly, the time to make a competitive package out of THAT bike (rmz250), which has little recent race development and a fairly technologically-disadvantaged baseline.

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10/17/2017 8:32 AM

IMO....They have been unlucky with riders...and they spent a lot of time trying to get the yz right.

The RMZ is a good bike, and with the right rider, is a winner....Ken Roczen....but, the 2017 was the last year for that chassis and now JGR has to work with an unproven set up.

We will see.

I liked Bogle on the RMZ last year and am looking forward to his running near the front in 2018.

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10/17/2017 8:34 AM

My guess is that there is little significance.

I’ve owned Suzukis and I don’t have anything against them but on a corporate level, they’ve proven time and again that dirt bikes are very very low on their list of priorities. Didn’t McGrath touch on this in his book, about how when he switched to Suzuki in 1997, the factory shop was empty. There was nothing going. Then you take the Kawa-Zuki partnership, which is not a sign of corporate health or “robustness”. Then they drop their amateur program. Then they run the same (overweight) 450 for 9 year. NINE YEARS. Finally they come out with an all new bike that turns out to be not that different and not much better.

What can the factory possibly offer JGR other than a bike allotment? This whole “partnership” business is smoke and mirrors in my opinion. JGR wanted a switch and there weren’t many options. Suzuki needed someone with deep pockets to do their development for them. That’s how I see it. It's a win for Suzuki and as for JGR...well, less so.

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10/17/2017 8:38 AM

I’m thinking that with all the techno-capabilities JGR has at its disposal, it’s possible to do too much to the bikes. I hope they spend as much energy listening to Bogle & Peick and what they like, and makes them more comfy as they do throwing trickery at the bikes.

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10/17/2017 8:40 AM
Edited Date/Time: 10/17/2017 8:45 AM

Forty wrote:

IMO....They have been unlucky with riders...and they spent a lot of time trying to get the yz right.

The RMZ is a good bike, and with the right rider, is a winner....Ken Roczen....but, the 2017 was the last year for that chassis and now JGR has to work with an unproven set up.

We will see.

I liked Bogle on the RMZ last year and am looking forward to his running near the front in 2018.

I was referring more to the RMZ250. It's way down on engine in a class that's all about the engine. A pumped-up RMZ250 is going to end up about where the other teams start with a stock bike.

And it has seen little race testing in recent years to figure out how to reliably get more out of it.

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10/17/2017 8:55 AM

I don't think there is much significance, other than maybe some $$ and access to Yosh technical support. For Zook this is the next best thing to just throwing in the towel. At least they have a bike out there, which is more than they can say for GP's and All Japanese Nat's. Did the RM Army program already fall apart? I noticed Brock Papi on a Honda at the MEC.

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10/17/2017 9:12 AM

Forty wrote:

IMO....They have been unlucky with riders...and they spent a lot of time trying to get the yz right.

The RMZ is a good bike, and with the right rider, is a winner....Ken Roczen....but, the 2017 was the last year for that chassis and now JGR has to work with an unproven set up.

We will see.

I liked Bogle on the RMZ last year and am looking forward to his running near the front in 2018.

Dirty Points wrote:

I was referring more to the RMZ250. It's way down on engine in a class that's all about the engine. A pumped-up RMZ250 is going to end up about where the other teams start with a stock bike.

And it has seen little race testing in recent years to figure out how to reliably get more out of it.

I read that, and agree, the bike seems anemic against the PC bikes and the YZ250fs.

They do have an all new bike coming however, and it is my hope that the brand can acquire a presence in the national circuit again.

Locally they do not seem to be doing to badly.

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10/17/2017 9:38 AM


"What can the factory possibly offer JGR other than a bike allotment?"

$$$$$$$. That's what.
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10/17/2017 9:47 AM
Edited Date/Time: 10/17/2017 11:28 AM

Forty wrote:

IMO....They have been unlucky with riders...and they spent a lot of time trying to get the yz right.

The RMZ is a good bike, and with the right rider, is a winner....Ken Roczen....but, the 2017 was the last year for that chassis and now JGR has to work with an unproven set up.

We will see.

I liked Bogle on the RMZ last year and am looking forward to his running near the front in 2018.

Dirty Points wrote:

I was referring more to the RMZ250. It's way down on engine in a class that's all about the engine. A pumped-up RMZ250 is going to end up about where the other teams start with a stock bike.

And it has seen little race testing in recent years to figure out how to reliably get more out of it.

Forty wrote:

I read that, and agree, the bike seems anemic against the PC bikes and the YZ250fs.

They do have an all new bike coming however, and it is my hope that the brand can acquire a presence in the national circuit again.

Locally they do not seem to be doing to badly.

The 450 didn't get any significant engine updates. What if the 250 also only gets a new chassis and suspension?

The RMZ 250 engine is so far off the other bikes, JGR will have to do a lot to get it even close to the YZF, SXF, FC, KXF and new CRF(rumors indicate that it's a way better engine than the old gen).



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10/17/2017 10:17 AM
Edited Date/Time: 10/17/2017 10:21 AM

Dirty Points wrote:

I was referring more to the RMZ250. It's way down on engine in a class that's all about the engine. A pumped-up RMZ250 is going to end up about where the other teams start with a stock bike.

And it has seen little race testing in recent years to figure out how to reliably get more out of it.

Forty wrote:

I read that, and agree, the bike seems anemic against the PC bikes and the YZ250fs.

They do have an all new bike coming however, and it is my hope that the brand can acquire a presence in the national circuit again.

Locally they do not seem to be doing to badly.

Motofinne wrote:

The 450 didn't get any significant engine updates. What if the 250 also only gets a new chassis and suspension?

The RMZ 250 engine is so far off the other bikes, JGR will have to do a lot to get it even close to the YZF, SXF, FC, KXF and new CRF(rumors indicate that it's a way better engine than the old gen).



And even if it gets the sorely-needed new engine... for JGR, unless they are very seriously tied in with Suzuki's development of the platform, it just means this year's 250 engine development and 250 rider contracts (barring a championship) were all just throwing away cash while waiting for the new bike to arrive.

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10/17/2017 11:26 AM

Forty wrote:

I read that, and agree, the bike seems anemic against the PC bikes and the YZ250fs.

They do have an all new bike coming however, and it is my hope that the brand can acquire a presence in the national circuit again.

Locally they do not seem to be doing to badly.

Motofinne wrote:

The 450 didn't get any significant engine updates. What if the 250 also only gets a new chassis and suspension?

The RMZ 250 engine is so far off the other bikes, JGR will have to do a lot to get it even close to the YZF, SXF, FC, KXF and new CRF(rumors indicate that it's a way better engine than the old gen).



Dirty Points wrote:

And even if it gets the sorely-needed new engine... for JGR, unless they are very seriously tied in with Suzuki's development of the platform, it just means this year's 250 engine development and 250 rider contracts (barring a championship) were all just throwing away cash while waiting for the new bike to arrive.

I have no proof of anything but this is my guess: The 2019 250 will get roughly the same upgrades as the 2018 450. New chassis and suspension.

So they wont have to throw away anything they developed.

Btw they actually put in the same engine package as they used in 2017 for the 2018 450 bikes.

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10/17/2017 11:33 AM

Motofinne wrote:

The 450 didn't get any significant engine updates. What if the 250 also only gets a new chassis and suspension?

The RMZ 250 engine is so far off the other bikes, JGR will have to do a lot to get it even close to the YZF, SXF, FC, KXF and new CRF(rumors indicate that it's a way better engine than the old gen).



Dirty Points wrote:

And even if it gets the sorely-needed new engine... for JGR, unless they are very seriously tied in with Suzuki's development of the platform, it just means this year's 250 engine development and 250 rider contracts (barring a championship) were all just throwing away cash while waiting for the new bike to arrive.

Motofinne wrote:

I have no proof of anything but this is my guess: The 2019 250 will get roughly the same upgrades as the 2018 450. New chassis and suspension.

So they wont have to throw away anything they developed.

Btw they actually put in the same engine package as they used in 2017 for the 2018 450 bikes.

Could be true, but would be a huge misread on the market desires for that class. They have all handled great dating back to the first 125cc.

More motor has always been the winner.

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10/17/2017 1:40 PM

It comes down to the best riders win the races and Championships. RCH, JGR, Yamaha, Honda, Husky and Kawasiki could not beat Dungey in SX. RCH did win a National championship with Roczen.

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10/17/2017 1:55 PM

Certainly, the best riders win. For sure. That's moto; that's the world; and that's just how talent works.

But the best riders are the ones who are the least willing to accept what they see as a sub-par bike.

AND.... All those who are dropping "Roczen won" takes are completely forgoing the growing pains therein, and what he chose to do right after he won.

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10/17/2017 1:58 PM

All I know is ML keeps saying that bike is titties fast

Significance = paycheck though

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10/17/2017 2:39 PM

NEXT YEAR I THINK WILL BE 1 OF THE BEST YEAR AT THE RACES FOR TEAM SUSZUKI IN A LOG TIME. DO THYE BRINGING BACK KYLE CUNNIGHAM AND MATT BISCEGLIA FORM TEXAS???

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suszuki rm85

10/17/2017 4:21 PM

Dirty Points wrote:

Certainly, the best riders win. For sure. That's moto; that's the world; and that's just how talent works.

But the best riders are the ones who are the least willing to accept what they see as a sub-par bike.

AND.... All those who are dropping "Roczen won" takes are completely forgoing the growing pains therein, and what he chose to do right after he won.

His contract was up. Honda bought him.

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10/17/2017 4:40 PM

F150Motocrosser wrote:

In the Jimmy D thread someone mentioned questioning if JGR was truly capable of developing a championship contending bike (relevant to the thread due to PulpMX Show last night saying Jimmy D may be headed to JGR for a 250 SX ride)

From a support and resources aspect, can someone remind me what the true significance is of an official partnership between JGR and Factory Suzuki? I've gone back and re-read the press releases about the announcement, but it seems like the big take away is the increased focus on building an amateur program (RM Army) similar to Kawi's Team Green and KTM's Orange Brigade. Not really seeing or hearing anything about increased communication or sharing of resources between Suzuki Japan and the JGR squad (is that supposed to be a given?)

I know JGR is already very well equipped as far as in-house capabilities and resources go, but has their been any comments about how the JGR/Suzuki factory effort and the synergies that come along with it will actually result in "building a better mousetrap", not just a better amateur support program?

Judging by the number of Japanese technicians running around Huntersville with Suz shirts and jackets on I would say they are getting plenty of support from Suz....

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10/17/2017 4:50 PM

Forty wrote:

His contract was up. Honda bought him.

They buy guys with money. And they buy guys with hardware.

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10/17/2017 6:07 PM

It's more about the people than all the fancy equipment, facilities and degrees. The right combination of technical knowledge, creativity and problem solving skills will take a team farther than anything else. Look what Papa Jones did out of his garage back in the early seventies with those POS Yamaha's. It doesn't necessary need to be the same person either as long as there's someone who can identify the proper goals and motivate others to effectively collaborate towards those ends. I think Decoster is a good example of someone with those skills. Ultimately, the team that asks themselves "why" and answer with "why not" more than the next will have the competitive advantage.

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Retired Mechanical Engineer, published technical writer, mscperformance.com, Bisimotoengineering.com,

10/17/2017 6:43 PM
Edited Date/Time: 10/18/2017 7:46 AM

Hunter Lawrence has no problem making it work..
Might not happen in the first few rounds but im sure jgr have enough resources to get enough out of the bike that it won't be what stops any of there guys finishing where they usually would.

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10/17/2017 8:40 PM

td104 wrote:

Hunter Lawrence has no problem making it work..
Might not happen in the first few rounds but im sure jgr have enough resources to get enough out of the bike that it won't be what stops any of there guys finishing where they usually would.

Not to mention Seewer as well whistling His bike was no slouch.

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10/17/2017 8:44 PM

td104 wrote:

Hunter Lawrence has no problem making it work..
Might not happen in the first few rounds but im sure jgr have enough resources to get enough out of the bike that it won't be what stops any of there guys finishing where they usually would.

malachi177 wrote:

Not to mention Seewer as well whistling His bike was no slouch.

It is my understanding that Seewers bike is nowhere near production based, so wouldn't apply to whatever JGR is dealing with.

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