It's not the bike it's the rider

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2/11/2019 5:33 AM

just ask Cooper Webb

3 wins on orange
0 wins on the other bike

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2/11/2019 5:35 AM

SweetDaddy wrote:

just ask Cooper Webb

3 wins on orange
0 wins on the other bike

Aside from changing bikes he also completely changed his training routine. So..... There's that.

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2/11/2019 5:39 AM

I think Webb was better off on a Honda, KTM/Husky, Suzuki, and kawi rather then a Yamaha. He just looked terrible on that thing. Like Webb said on pulp you don’t ever lose your speed you just need to find that click.

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2/11/2019 5:39 AM

OP must own the toaster...

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2/11/2019 5:39 AM

SweetDaddy wrote:

just ask Cooper Webb

3 wins on orange
0 wins on the other bike

Copy and paste from of an answer I posted in another thread:

It's not the bike, listen to Webb's interviews. He used to train at 70% but Aldon called him on it the first day. It took until half way through December before Webb could do the full workout for an entire week. Plus Webb has even said with the KTM he was changing too much and chasing an unrealistic feel. He decided that he was going to just ride the bike and adapt to the track conditions.

It's shocking to hear, but apparently talent will only get you so far in the premiere class...

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2/11/2019 5:51 AM

Aldon Baker was the key for Cooper Webb. He has the mental toughness and physical conditioning now to win. He’s riding great and not cracking under pressure. He’s fit, his bike set up looks great. It’s his championship to loose this year. I’m not a fan of him but his riding is looking great.
The psychology side of sports is overlooked way too much even today. Aldon knows how to build that up when it’s lacking in certain Rider’s.

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2/11/2019 6:08 AM

MotoMan12345 wrote:

I think Webb was better off on a Honda, KTM/Husky, Suzuki, and kawi rather then a Yamaha. He just looked terrible on that thing. Like Webb said on pulp you don’t ever lose your speed you just need to find that click.

What scares me about this is watching AP ride the thing. Now he's not the same size as Cooper and hopefully he isn't letting it get into his head saying " I should be doing better than I am, look at cooper webb now, what if it IS the bike"? Which at their level it may be...I know Barcia has won on it but his style is completely different than AP...A-Anyone for that matter.

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2/11/2019 6:53 AM
Edited Date/Time: 2/11/2019 7:05 AM

Polishhammer wrote:

Aldon Baker was the key for Cooper Webb. He has the mental toughness and physical conditioning now to win. He’s riding great and not cracking under pressure. He’s fit, his bike set up looks great. It’s his championship to loose this year. I’m not a fan of him but his riding is looking great.
The psychology side of sports is overlooked way too much even today. Aldon knows how to build that up when it’s lacking in certain Rider’s.

Agree with your comments. Aldon started this formula with RC4 in 01-02 when he went from the kawi to the Honda. Before that RC wasn't able to compete with MC2 in the prior 2 yrs. on the big bike. I'm sure through the yrs. he's evolved the formula on how to help a rider be successful at the pinnacle of the sport.
I don't believe a rider can win on talent alone in the premier class...

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Speak softly and carry a big stick.

2/11/2019 7:19 AM

MotoMan12345 wrote:

I think Webb was better off on a Honda, KTM/Husky, Suzuki, and kawi rather then a Yamaha. He just looked terrible on that thing. Like Webb said on pulp you don’t ever lose your speed you just need to find that click.

Bramlett321 wrote:

What scares me about this is watching AP ride the thing. Now he's not the same size as Cooper and hopefully he isn't letting it get into his head saying " I should be doing better than I am, look at cooper webb now, what if it IS the bike"? Which at their level it may be...I know Barcia has won on it but his style is completely different than AP...A-Anyone for that matter.

I think the Yamaha just doesn't suit certain people. For JB it was more mental I think but for Webb he couldn't ride that Yamaha

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2/11/2019 9:39 AM

It's a combination of multiple things. The bike is great, Aldon is doing good things with him and he has confidence.
Webb is riding very good, he looks smooth and fast.

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2/11/2019 9:53 AM

Barcia has won 1 SX race on a Yamaha, I think that is the only SX win in 3-4 seasons for Blu Cru.

KTM, well they have had a bit more success.......................

So I would say the bike is a bigger issue than some may want to admit.

There are just too many factors that make up a win or a loss. I think the bike is a big part of the equation, but there is so many variables that make a rider confident, it's not just one thing.

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2/11/2019 9:54 AM
Edited Date/Time: 2/11/2019 10:05 AM

There are very few things that annoys me more than people sticking with old narratives regarding bikes. The current Yamaha is not the fat boat that James Stewart had to ride.

1. Cooper Webb even admitted himself that he was not training enough/with enough intensity the last couple of years. Aldon Baker has confirmed that Webb struggled in the beginning with the training program.

2. Look at the results that the stock bike puts out worldwide at the moment. It is one of the most neutral bikes out there and does everything well and racks up shootout wins.

Plessningers results aren't down to the YZF 450 being a bad bike. Even if you stick with the dated narrative around the YZF 450, shouldn't a big lad like Plessinger be perfect for it? All i have heard is that Plessinger would kill it on a 450 because of his size (yet again a stupid narrative).

Did the swich to KTM help Webb? Yes. But the biggest part of this amazing turn around is working with Baker and training with the top guys at Bakersfactory.

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2/11/2019 10:31 AM

What I can't get is when Webb was racing 250 s but went to the mxon on the 450 Yamaha he was fantastic. Then when he moved up 450 he was nt

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2/11/2019 10:36 AM

Stating the obvious about the Yamaha 450 has never been received well on Vital as guys get real defensive about their bikes. The truth is, that blue 450 is a great bike for 99% of the population but it simply does not work for competing at the highest levels in Supercross. The same argument could be made about MX as well. Year after year we have seen the blue 450 struggle. Guys will always argue that is does well overseas...but, they modify their chassis. Or, others will point to a rare blue 450 win like the mud race that Barcia just won...the key word is rare. It ended JS's career and hasn't done well since. The blue 250 on the other hand seems to work great, no issues there.

Cooper is just another rider to prove the blue 250 works and the blue 450 doesn't. Cooper hauled ass on the 250, and flopped on the 450. The blue pitch forks will argue it's because he stepped up his training program....yeah, well that will improve your results but doesn't make you go faster, it makes you go faster for a longer period of time (speed vs fitness). If he was out of shape on the blue 450 he should have still had the speed to run up front for 5 laps and then drop anchor (due to fitness). But that didn't happen, because the bike was holding him back (speed). Seems like Plessinger is dealing with it now, I bet he wishes he could hop back on the 250.

And to the angry blue crowd, I have no problem with the blue 450 for myself. I'm looking at one for my next bike as they've been very reliable bikes for me in the past. It definitley won't slow me down with the type of riding I do, but it obviously slows down the pros at the top level. Cooper Webb is the latest rider to put another nail in that blue coffin.

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2/11/2019 10:37 AM

Hes training with this guy idk if u ever heard of him but his name is ALDON BAKER...

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2/11/2019 10:52 AM

Black Diesel Bomber wrote:

Stating the obvious about the Yamaha 450 has never been received well on Vital as guys get real defensive about their bikes. The truth is, that blue 450 is a great bike for 99% of the population but it simply does not work for competing at the highest levels in Supercross. The same argument could be made about MX as well. Year after year we have seen the blue 450 struggle. Guys will always argue that is does well overseas...but, they modify their chassis. Or, others will point to a rare blue 450 win like the mud race that Barcia just won...the key word is rare. It ended JS's career and hasn't done well since. The blue 250 on the other hand seems to work great, no issues there.

Cooper is just another rider to prove the blue 250 works and the blue 450 doesn't. Cooper hauled ass on the 250, and flopped on the 450. The blue pitch forks will argue it's because he stepped up his training program....yeah, well that will improve your results but doesn't make you go faster, it makes you go faster for a longer period of time (speed vs fitness). If he was out of shape on the blue 450 he should have still had the speed to run up front for 5 laps and then drop anchor (due to fitness). But that didn't happen, because the bike was holding him back (speed). Seems like Plessinger is dealing with it now, I bet he wishes he could hop back on the 250.

And to the angry blue crowd, I have no problem with the blue 450 for myself. I'm looking at one for my next bike as they've been very reliable bikes for me in the past. It definitley won't slow me down with the type of riding I do, but it obviously slows down the pros at the top level. Cooper Webb is the latest rider to put another nail in that blue coffin.

Me thinks you nailed it...

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2/11/2019 11:06 AM

Black Diesel Bomber wrote:

Stating the obvious about the Yamaha 450 has never been received well on Vital as guys get real defensive about their bikes. The truth is, that blue 450 is a great bike for 99% of the population but it simply does not work for competing at the highest levels in Supercross. The same argument could be made about MX as well. Year after year we have seen the blue 450 struggle. Guys will always argue that is does well overseas...but, they modify their chassis. Or, others will point to a rare blue 450 win like the mud race that Barcia just won...the key word is rare. It ended JS's career and hasn't done well since. The blue 250 on the other hand seems to work great, no issues there.

Cooper is just another rider to prove the blue 250 works and the blue 450 doesn't. Cooper hauled ass on the 250, and flopped on the 450. The blue pitch forks will argue it's because he stepped up his training program....yeah, well that will improve your results but doesn't make you go faster, it makes you go faster for a longer period of time (speed vs fitness). If he was out of shape on the blue 450 he should have still had the speed to run up front for 5 laps and then drop anchor (due to fitness). But that didn't happen, because the bike was holding him back (speed). Seems like Plessinger is dealing with it now, I bet he wishes he could hop back on the 250.

And to the angry blue crowd, I have no problem with the blue 450 for myself. I'm looking at one for my next bike as they've been very reliable bikes for me in the past. It definitley won't slow me down with the type of riding I do, but it obviously slows down the pros at the top level. Cooper Webb is the latest rider to put another nail in that blue coffin.

I'll be the first to admit the Yamaha 450's don't mesh with everyone, especially guys on the smaller side. Coop did say one big reason he went to KTM is because they offered him a 2 year deal and Yamaha only offered a 1 year deal. Sounded to me like he would have stayed put if they offered him 2 years.

I'd also argue that Yamaha hasn't had the riders, Stewart aside. KTM had Dungey, Stew went to Suzuki in 12(I'll admit, the 10-13 YZ's weren't all that great for most guys, but it was because of JGR that he got checked out for ADD), Honda had Reed, Kawi had RV and Yamaha had Milsaps. Milsaps wasn't on the same level as the other 4 no matter what bike he was on. The other dudes were just straight up better than him.

Yamaha just hasn't had a guy on the top level and still doesn't. I'm a huge Barcia fan, but he's a step behind Marv, Webb, Ando, Tomac and Roczen. Who knows if or when they will get/have a guy on that next level.

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2005 YZ250
1998 YZ250
2005 KX250F

80% of the time it works every time
IG @hamdaddyof2 & @2HRacing
Thanks to : Factory Effex, N2Dirt, Acerbis, DT1, O'Neal, Matix, FMF, ASV, 100% & Mika Metals

2/11/2019 1:00 PM

1) Factory bikes are so far removed from production that consumers should wise up - it's LITERALLY like a totally different BRAND of bike from factory to stock.

2) The TEAM aspect is a HUGE reason behind the scenes on what the "bike" is better for him. He even said this - he went to the WINNING team - partly to TAKE AWAY any doubt he could have had in the bike.
look at the TEAMS history. Roger was factory honda - then factory suzuki (took forever but eventually won a LOT)
And now KTM. Roger's TEAM of staff and people he brings on board are the HUGE reason to their success

3) He said he was out of shape when he got to aldons - and thought he was IN shape before hand. If this was truthful (and not a mental game against his former team mates) - and you train with swanny (or whoever he trained with) then you must ask yourself - wow I must be out of shape. If I'm plessinger - and I hear that - I would think it's time to step up the program.


The bike, however, even if his KTM better - it's less than 5 percent difference from his yamaha. I'd stamp that. The biggest difference would be the confidence you have in that extra 5 percent...and how that translates on practice day and race day.
Imagine hating 1 tiny thing about your bike. And that 1 thing you KNOW doesn't really make a huge difference in performance. But ALL season long that 1 thing will nag at you.

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2/11/2019 2:37 PM

Cooper did say on a podcast that he loves that he can ride the ktm more like a 250 and it has a way shorter seat height and footpeg-to-seat distance.

I am usually part of the "its never the bike" camp, but there is just no way working one off season with aldon is all it took to go from 2 podiums in 2 years, to winning 3 of the first 6 races. Also, ktm has something figured out with starts right now, even the podcasts are talking about it. So you could attribute that to the bike or the team, depending on how you look at it I guess. He also said he likes how at ktm if he wants a custom part or wants to try something new, he has it on the bike in a week vs. what could take months at yamaha.

To counter argue with myself, cooper did put in a lot of decent rides on blue. He also said that he knew going into A1 in 2018 that yamaha wasn't where he wanted to be, so I imagine that last year he was a bit out of it mentally which may have affected his results.

The yz450 is a great bike, and in reality it may have been just fine for cooper, just like it is for all these test riders who give it shootout wins. However, if cooper PERCEIVED that it was the bike, then it's going to effect his mentality and therefore is an issue, plain and simple.

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2/11/2019 4:04 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/11/2019 4:05 PM

In my opinion, it’s not one thing or another. It seems like when guys like Webb or Tomac win, it’s a combination of a good bike set up, confidence, talent, fitness, and in some cases a bit of luck. I’m enjoying see Webb doing good.

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2/11/2019 4:13 PM

Whatever the deal is ( and I think it's a coming together of a bunch of things , including his mindset ).....it's working well for him. Lots of pieces to that puzzle that just weren't good , or not at all. He seems to be going in the right direction now. Some times just changing everything , like the bike , team , training......can be a good thing. He's obviously digging where he's at.

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And there goes Jeffro. One of God's own prototypes. A super high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Pimpin' Ho's , Rollin' fatty's......drinkin' beers , beers , beers!! ~ Ja

2/11/2019 4:18 PM

A little better bike + a LOT better program

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2/11/2019 4:22 PM

Derek Harris wrote:

1) Factory bikes are so far removed from production that consumers should wise up - it's LITERALLY like a totally different BRAND of bike from factory to stock.

2) The TEAM aspect is a HUGE reason behind the scenes on what the "bike" is better for him. He even said this - he went to the WINNING team - partly to TAKE AWAY any doubt he could have had in the bike.
look at the TEAMS history. Roger was factory honda - then factory suzuki (took forever but eventually won a LOT)
And now KTM. Roger's TEAM of staff and people he brings on board are the HUGE reason to their success

3) He said he was out of shape when he got to aldons - and thought he was IN shape before hand. If this was truthful (and not a mental game against his former team mates) - and you train with swanny (or whoever he trained with) then you must ask yourself - wow I must be out of shape. If I'm plessinger - and I hear that - I would think it's time to step up the program.


The bike, however, even if his KTM better - it's less than 5 percent difference from his yamaha. I'd stamp that. The biggest difference would be the confidence you have in that extra 5 percent...and how that translates on practice day and race day.
Imagine hating 1 tiny thing about your bike. And that 1 thing you KNOW doesn't really make a huge difference in performance. But ALL season long that 1 thing will nag at you.

Hmm good point with Swanepoel. If he was letting Coop get away with slacking off on his training (admitted by Coop himself) that means overall the program is underperforming. Your right to say what can AP expect then. He may think hes pushing, but its a different level, and when the next guy is pushing harder in training your at a disadvantage. Theres definitely a reason Aldon wins though, and Coop did win with Gareth, it may just not transfer to 450s where you have to be perfection.

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2/11/2019 6:59 PM

I think Aldon Baker is part of it. Better fitness as well as helping Coop with focus/confidence. The basic design of the KTM is probably a little better for a smaller rider I am guessing. At that level with all the money and tuning in the bikes, I cant see how any brand could be inferior to any degree. Maybe the KTM just fits the small guys a hair better...or maybe small guys with a certain riding style. Maybe it's just that Webb THINKS it suits him better and therefor he feels better on it. I dont know. Maybe the crew at KTM is a little better at finding the right set up for a rider. I think the bike could be a small part of it, but i think its more about working with Baker, practicing regularly with Musquin, believing his bike is top notch, and the confidence all those things bring. He's just surrounded by proven winners and doesnt doubt the bike hes on anyomore whether its actually better or not.

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2/11/2019 7:24 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/11/2019 7:26 PM

SweetDaddy wrote:

just ask Cooper Webb

3 wins on orange
0 wins on the other bike

Should specify 450 SX to be accurate. After all, we did send him to MXDN on the other bike.

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THERE IS NO SECOND MOTO IN LIFE!

2/11/2019 7:32 PM

It's more than that. It's the rider's comfort on the bike. That has to do with both.

Cooper was still going fast as fuck. But he couldn't push too his potential because he wasn't comfortable.

Comfort from the bike, confidence, fitness...

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Cheers, Crush
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2/11/2019 7:39 PM

Someone made the point that Coops success on the KTM is not just about the bike but also the team. I agree and would go further and say the same logic applies the other way. Plessinger went from being on top at Star Racing to struggling on the factory Yamaha. IMHO that speaks volumes about the team, and to some extent, the bike too.

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2/11/2019 7:45 PM

BNG wrote:

Someone made the point that Coops success on the KTM is not just about the bike but also the team. I agree and would go further and say the same logic applies the other way. Plessinger went from being on top at Star Racing to struggling on the factory Yamaha. IMHO that speaks volumes about the team, and to some extent, the bike too.

Don't think it works that way bud

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2/11/2019 7:59 PM

BNG wrote:

Someone made the point that Coops success on the KTM is not just about the bike but also the team. I agree and would go further and say the same logic applies the other way. Plessinger went from being on top at Star Racing to struggling on the factory Yamaha. IMHO that speaks volumes about the team, and to some extent, the bike too.

zehn wrote:

Don't think it works that way bud

You’re right. Plessinger’s been killing it on the factory team. 🙄

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2/11/2019 8:00 PM

Well what’s odd is he rode the wheels of the 250 and the program looked fine there. I guess the 450 just takes a lot more fitness to handle.

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