Is the USA doing suspension all wrong?

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9/2/2017 5:11 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/2/2017 5:14 PM

I may get a ton of shit for this, and I'll admit I'm not the best at setting up suspension. But, some of those jumps today could be classified as "supercrossish". Herlings and Cairollis bikes seemed better even on them. The way MC first soaked up jumps their bikes seemed to do that better than Tomac and Barcia. Like I said, I'm not a suspension expert but from watching I'd guess Herlings, softer spring, more dampening, less rebound. Tomac, stiffer spring, less dampening, similar rebound. Is the Tomac setup just for the whoops, and would Herlings soak them up more where Tomac would skim them? Imagine if Herlings showed up at MEC with that setup and did what he did last week. Have the US teams stuck with settings that may have worked on 2 strokes but maybe aren't the best for four?

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9/2/2017 5:29 PM

Actually Ive been there during some of the suspension tests for these pros. And honestly, yes, the manufacturers are dead set on the settings that applied to bikes from over a decade ago.

It is also an extremely good indication of suspension set-up to watch a rider and see that he is bouncing around a lot. In fact I think its the most scientific method possible. There is no possible way that the rider is just not riding well, its almost ALWAYS some little thing wrong with the bike.

If these damn suspension guys could just listen the the experts here on vital, we would see at least 15 different moto winners every weekend. Until then I guess were just going to have to settle with the standard 4 moto winners

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9/2/2017 5:30 PM

RandyS wrote:

I may get a ton of shit for this, and I'll admit I'm not the best at setting up suspension. But, some of those jumps today could be classified as "supercrossish". Herlings and Cairollis bikes seemed better even on them. The way MC first soaked up jumps their bikes seemed to do that better than Tomac and Barcia. Like I said, I'm not a suspension expert but from watching I'd guess Herlings, softer spring, more dampening, less rebound. Tomac, stiffer spring, less dampening, similar rebound. Is the Tomac setup just for the whoops, and would Herlings soak them up more where Tomac would skim them? Imagine if Herlings showed up at MEC with that setup and did what he did last week. Have the US teams stuck with settings that may have worked on 2 strokes but maybe aren't the best for four?

Herlings would go quite a bit stiffer for Monster Cup, trust me...

IMO where USA riders do struggle when setting up motocross suspension is typically how much hold-up and the bike balance they expect due to their time on SX settings. Supercross suspension is much more held up in the stroke and fairly level at most times. From what I've experienced on few team tests, most guys struggle to come to grips with suspension that will continue to travel through the compression stroke and rebound quickly as well. They want it held up and if it does blow deep into the stroke, they definitely don't want to feel it come unsettled again too quickly. Leaving them with a harsher feel as they're deep in stroke (when it actually does move enough) because they don't allow it to rebound enough before the next obstacle, breaking bump, etc.

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9/2/2017 5:42 PM

RandyS wrote:

I may get a ton of shit for this, and I'll admit I'm not the best at setting up suspension. But, some of those jumps today could be classified as "supercrossish". Herlings and Cairollis bikes seemed better even on them. The way MC first soaked up jumps their bikes seemed to do that better than Tomac and Barcia. Like I said, I'm not a suspension expert but from watching I'd guess Herlings, softer spring, more dampening, less rebound. Tomac, stiffer spring, less dampening, similar rebound. Is the Tomac setup just for the whoops, and would Herlings soak them up more where Tomac would skim them? Imagine if Herlings showed up at MEC with that setup and did what he did last week. Have the US teams stuck with settings that may have worked on 2 strokes but maybe aren't the best for four?

ML512 wrote:

Herlings would go quite a bit stiffer for Monster Cup, trust me...

IMO where USA riders do struggle when setting up motocross suspension is typically how much hold-up and the bike balance they expect due to their time on SX settings. Supercross suspension is much more held up in the stroke and fairly level at most times. From what I've experienced on few team tests, most guys struggle to come to grips with suspension that will continue to travel through the compression stroke and rebound quickly as well. They want it held up and if it does blow deep into the stroke, they definitely don't want to feel it come unsettled again too quickly. Leaving them with a harsher feel as they're deep in stroke (when it actually does move enough) because they don't allow it to rebound enough before the next obstacle, breaking bump, etc.

I'm more talking about SX, the prevailing suspension theory is stiff, slam everything. Watching Herlings and Cairolli what I'm getting at is, lets take whoops for example. Lets say Tomac hits the top 4 inches , could Herlings on a setup more similar to his outdoor setup hit 10 inches of the whoop and achieve the exact same thing. I see a Herlings SX setup squatting more. Just because everyone is doing it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way, people get set in their ways.

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9/2/2017 5:42 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/2/2017 5:51 PM

RandyS wrote:

I may get a ton of shit for this, and I'll admit I'm not the best at setting up suspension. But, some of those jumps today could be classified as "supercrossish". Herlings and Cairollis bikes seemed better even on them. The way MC first soaked up jumps their bikes seemed to do that better than Tomac and Barcia. Like I said, I'm not a suspension expert but from watching I'd guess Herlings, softer spring, more dampening, less rebound. Tomac, stiffer spring, less dampening, similar rebound. Is the Tomac setup just for the whoops, and would Herlings soak them up more where Tomac would skim them? Imagine if Herlings showed up at MEC with that setup and did what he did last week. Have the US teams stuck with settings that may have worked on 2 strokes but maybe aren't the best for four?

So what's it say then, in the big picture, if Herlings & Caroli are better at the "supercrossish" stuff as well with a different, (soft), setup?

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9/2/2017 5:51 PM

All Im saying is that its easy to see what you want to see. I remember Tomac in 2015 going out and winning by minutes right after supercross ended. And Kenny straight up dominating when its said that he isnt very picky about his bike, he just rides. I just cant really believe that suspension has as much to do with it as we try to say it does. And that for some reason we just cant figure it out.

I just think our guys arent as good right now. Eli doesnt seem to have the fire, and after him, our other 2 top riders are Euros themselves (Roczen and Musquin)

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9/2/2017 5:56 PM

RandyS wrote:

I'm more talking about SX, the prevailing suspension theory is stiff, slam everything. Watching Herlings and Cairolli what I'm getting at is, lets take whoops for example. Lets say Tomac hits the top 4 inches , could Herlings on a setup more similar to his outdoor setup hit 10 inches of the whoop and achieve the exact same thing. I see a Herlings SX setup squatting more. Just because everyone is doing it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way, people get set in their ways.

No, the bike would literally get too held up by every whoop, losing momentum and dropping the front end. Almost every pro has ridden their supercross track on motocross suspension before to goof off, and it doesn't work out that well. WW Ranch may seem Supercross-like to some, but there's still a massive difference.

Even with the extreme stiff setups our guys run now, they still bottom at times in rhythm lanes...run anything softer and you'll have more over the bar moments, ala Kenny G-ing out during the transition of the triple earlier this year and ending his season. And that was just a minor miscalculation of a few inches...get something majorly wrong and you really, really need that traditional SX stiffness.

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9/2/2017 5:58 PM

To clarify my thoughts...no, what Herlings and Cairoli run now wouldn't be better on Supercross.

But I do think/agree our guys have some things too stuck in their heads from Supercross testing that effect how they setup a bike for outdoors.

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9/2/2017 6:16 PM

Jeez, all this strum & drang this week explained in 1 post. As someone once said, Afugginmazing!

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9/2/2017 6:23 PM

ML512 wrote:

Herlings would go quite a bit stiffer for Monster Cup, trust me...

IMO where USA riders do struggle when setting up motocross suspension is typically how much hold-up and the bike balance they expect due to their time on SX settings. Supercross suspension is much more held up in the stroke and fairly level at most times. From what I've experienced on few team tests, most guys struggle to come to grips with suspension that will continue to travel through the compression stroke and rebound quickly as well. They want it held up and if it does blow deep into the stroke, they definitely don't want to feel it come unsettled again too quickly. Leaving them with a harsher feel as they're deep in stroke (when it actually does move enough) because they don't allow it to rebound enough before the next obstacle, breaking bump, etc.

RandyS wrote:

I'm more talking about SX, the prevailing suspension theory is stiff, slam everything. Watching Herlings and Cairolli what I'm getting at is, lets take whoops for example. Lets say Tomac hits the top 4 inches , could Herlings on a setup more similar to his outdoor setup hit 10 inches of the whoop and achieve the exact same thing. I see a Herlings SX setup squatting more. Just because everyone is doing it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way, people get set in their ways.

ML512 wrote:

No, the bike would literally get too held up by every whoop, losing momentum and dropping the front end. Almost every pro has ridden their supercross track on motocross suspension before to goof off, and it doesn't work out that well. WW Ranch may seem Supercross-like to some, but there's still a massive difference.

Even with the extreme stiff setups our guys run now, they still bottom at times in rhythm lanes...run anything softer and you'll have more over the bar moments, ala Kenny G-ing out during the transition of the triple earlier this year and ending his season. And that was just a minor miscalculation of a few inches...get something majorly wrong and you really, really need that traditional SX stiffness.

I think if Herlings hangs out in Florida part of the year that certainly motocross, but maybe even supercross will look a little different in a couple of years because clearly his bike made Tomacs look like a stocker straight out of the crate.

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9/2/2017 6:26 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/2/2017 6:27 PM

Funny, if you question anything you're mocked as an expert by experts at IDing the experts. Lotsa butthurt here this week.

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9/2/2017 6:37 PM

RandyS wrote:

Funny, if you question anything you're mocked as an expert by experts at IDing the experts. Lotsa butthurt here this week.

BMSOB?

I'm lost.

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9/2/2017 6:37 PM

RandyS wrote:

Funny, if you question anything you're mocked as an expert by experts at IDing the experts. Lotsa butthurt here this week.

yup

and truth be told it does not take an expert to see one guy flying through rough stuff and another guy getting beat to death.

Can't blame everything on Supercross, I would be more inclined to believe the years the MXGP's spent with minimal Manufacture input forced them to get better and allowed them to try setting and parts that other teams get forced to use.

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9/2/2017 6:40 PM

RandyS wrote:

I may get a ton of shit for this, and I'll admit I'm not the best at setting up suspension. But, some of those jumps today could be classified as "supercrossish". Herlings and Cairollis bikes seemed better even on them. The way MC first soaked up jumps their bikes seemed to do that better than Tomac and Barcia. Like I said, I'm not a suspension expert but from watching I'd guess Herlings, softer spring, more dampening, less rebound. Tomac, stiffer spring, less dampening, similar rebound. Is the Tomac setup just for the whoops, and would Herlings soak them up more where Tomac would skim them? Imagine if Herlings showed up at MEC with that setup and did what he did last week. Have the US teams stuck with settings that may have worked on 2 strokes but maybe aren't the best for four?

Completely agree, but there's a major difference in the GP tracks/prep vs our Nationals.

Remember RV2's quest? ..I'm sure no one doubted Ryan's talent, but his bike set up was never quite on par imo.

I hope Covington gets another shot here in the states once he gets some experience. Could be cool to see the transition

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Current rides-
1988 RM250
2019 KX450

9/2/2017 6:42 PM

Just in the 450 class. 250 USA has those figured out. Lol

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9/2/2017 6:53 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/2/2017 7:29 PM

ML512 wrote:

BMSOB?

I'm lost.

Sorry. There has been so much talk about Euro v.s. US speed & sus. setups, who's faster, why etc. etc. this week. I thought, with your experience, you summarized the whole debate very succinctly. I respect your opinion & what you say makes sense regarding suspension.

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9/2/2017 7:05 PM

RandyS wrote:

Funny, if you question anything you're mocked as an expert by experts at IDing the experts. Lotsa butthurt here this week.

ML512 wrote:

BMSOB?

I'm lost.

BMSOBx2 wrote:

Sorry. There has been so much talk about Euro v.s. US speed & sus. setups, who's faster, why etc. etc. this week. I thought, with your experience, you summarized the whole debate very succinctly. I respect your opinion & what you say makes sense regarding suspension.

Photo

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9/2/2017 7:15 PM

Tomac stiff SX set up or whatever you want to call it worked pretty damn good a year ago on the same kawasaki at two totally different types of tracks.

It's hard to imagine they are taking wild guesses and getting far away from the baseline settings he knows works.

I'm expecting Tomac to find his rythum and go for the win.



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9/2/2017 7:33 PM

The rumours about Herlings suspension has always been that he runs the same internal settings all year, no matter the track, and merely changes the clickers to the track

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9/2/2017 8:08 PM

fuck herlings

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9/2/2017 8:37 PM

dirtaddict wrote:

fuck herlings

It may not be the classiest post but at least it's different. Two thumbs up for the comedy break.

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9/2/2017 8:45 PM

RandyS wrote:

I may get a ton of shit for this, and I'll admit I'm not the best at setting up suspension. But, some of those jumps today could be classified as "supercrossish". Herlings and Cairollis bikes seemed better even on them. The way MC first soaked up jumps their bikes seemed to do that better than Tomac and Barcia. Like I said, I'm not a suspension expert but from watching I'd guess Herlings, softer spring, more dampening, less rebound. Tomac, stiffer spring, less dampening, similar rebound. Is the Tomac setup just for the whoops, and would Herlings soak them up more where Tomac would skim them? Imagine if Herlings showed up at MEC with that setup and did what he did last week. Have the US teams stuck with settings that may have worked on 2 strokes but maybe aren't the best for four?

Superdave19 wrote:

Completely agree, but there's a major difference in the GP tracks/prep vs our Nationals.

Remember RV2's quest? ..I'm sure no one doubted Ryan's talent, but his bike set up was never quite on par imo.

I hope Covington gets another shot here in the states once he gets some experience. Could be cool to see the transition

I think we need some new Brad Lackeys. Guys like Barcia who have had some success here. Go over and learn what they're doing. I think Covington need to stay there and win some titles. He has to be one of the favorites next year depending on who moves up.

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9/2/2017 9:35 PM

Suspension? Seems like the US is doing everything wrong. In the span of ONE WEEK we've gone from having the best series and the best riders...to complete suckage. Man, I hope next week goes better for us.

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9/2/2017 10:05 PM

And steel versus aluminum ?

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9/2/2017 10:27 PM

Who would have thought herlings winning one race would change the world lol.

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9/3/2017 12:05 AM

Photo

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9/3/2017 12:18 AM

dirtaddict wrote:

fuck herlings

RandyS wrote:

It may not be the classiest post but at least it's different. Two thumbs up for the comedy break.

I just did a Muttly laugh

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9/3/2017 12:23 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/3/2017 3:06 AM

It makes a huge difference how you setup the bike... over the front wheel or rear wheel, Europeans also went stiffer on forks over the years but the biggest difference is in the rear shock... we talking now not about pro level but more in general... if you put stiffer springs in the forks so it stay higher in stoke and only shorten the back spring with a few mm, the bike steers more over the rear wheel

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9/3/2017 12:33 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/3/2017 12:33 AM

Aren't suspension settings based on what the rider's comfortable with? I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement but I can't see it being beneficial for someone to run something they aren't as comfortable on.

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9/3/2017 1:16 AM

dirtaddict wrote:

fuck herlings

Haha that's funny laughing laughing

Good humour bro laughing

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