Is race fuel important

VxeR
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I mean, I see all those guys talking about race fuel and I'm just here running pump gas with Motul 800 in my 125. Does it make a big difference?
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OR Racer46
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5/3/2017 10:49am
I was a back to mid pac C class racer. Until I started useing Race fuel. My results instantly sky rocketed . Within 3 months of constantly useing race Fuel I became a front runner in A class .
early
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5/3/2017 11:07am
OR Racer46 wrote:
I was a back to mid pac C class racer. Until I started useing Race fuel. My results instantly sky rocketed . Within 3 months of...
I was a back to mid pac C class racer. Until I started useing Race fuel. My results instantly sky rocketed . Within 3 months of constantly useing race Fuel I became a front runner in A class .
Sounds like one of Aldon's new products.

The Shop

Acidreamer
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Mansfield, OH US
5/3/2017 11:31am
From my ass dyno i can say it makes a difference. My 450 has hotcams and a high compression piston. Pump gas is like garbage. Recently it decided not even to run on pump gas. So ive been using sunoco 110. My old yz250 called for a minimum of 95 octane and they dont sell that at the pump. So had to use race gas in that too.

The MAIN reason is having quality gas. We all spend so much time and money building and maintining our bikes with high end parts and meticulous labor. Why risk dirty ethonal dilluted pump gas in it? The gas pumps around me have sediment in them. Find it in new gas cans and in my mower gas tank. No bueno.
5/3/2017 11:31am
VxeR wrote:
I mean, I see all those guys talking about race fuel and I'm just here running pump gas with Motul 800 in my 125. Does it...
I mean, I see all those guys talking about race fuel and I'm just here running pump gas with Motul 800 in my 125. Does it make a big difference?
I don't know, honestly. I guess it depends on what you want. My YZ detonated on pump gas. I switched for that reason alone. I noticed a distinct hit in the power around mid-range too with race gas. Once Slipdog ported the bike and modified the head I had to run race gas. I'm pretty sure he told me don't run anything with less than 112 octane after he did the head mod. I can tell you this too, with the mods and 114 octane race fuel, that thing makes plenty of power. Once you get above mid it just keeps winding out and going faster. I have no idea how long it will pull as I've never had it on a track long enough (for me and my skill level) to hold it WFO until it quits making power. That race fuel has to be part of that equation.
MXD
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5/3/2017 11:47am Edited Date/Time 5/3/2017 12:52pm
I run T4 in my 450 for 3 main reasons. First, because ethanol is bad. Second, pump gas around here can come in several different blends depending on what season it is. Third, I have a tuner and I like to play with my ignition map. Good quality fuel eliminates all of the concerns associated with the reasons I listed. Is it worth it for the power gain alone? No, not in my opinion. But that's not the driving force behind me using it.
5/3/2017 11:54am
MXD and acidbro make good points about purity and quality. Reason enough right there.
slowgti
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5/3/2017 12:03pm
Consistent gas is what you're looking for. It's really hard to jet around inconsistent gas, the octane helps, but consistency is what you're looking for.
RickA
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5/3/2017 12:34pm Edited Date/Time 5/3/2017 12:35pm
Acidreamer wrote:
From my ass dyno i can say it makes a difference. My 450 has hotcams and a high compression piston. Pump gas is like garbage. Recently...
From my ass dyno i can say it makes a difference. My 450 has hotcams and a high compression piston. Pump gas is like garbage. Recently it decided not even to run on pump gas. So ive been using sunoco 110. My old yz250 called for a minimum of 95 octane and they dont sell that at the pump. So had to use race gas in that too.

The MAIN reason is having quality gas. We all spend so much time and money building and maintining our bikes with high end parts and meticulous labor. Why risk dirty ethonal dilluted pump gas in it? The gas pumps around me have sediment in them. Find it in new gas cans and in my mower gas tank. No bueno.
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas?
Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my bike angry. I hope it doesn't decide to stop running on race gas while your on the track

Gasoline is the most misunderstood and overly scrutinized piece of the combustion process that I have ever read.

Race gas does not matter if you don't have the compression to support it. It's a slower, longer burning fuel that will make less power all things being the same.
bvm111
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5/3/2017 12:51pm Edited Date/Time 5/3/2017 1:03pm
The issue is finding low enough octane non ethanol fuel... the lowest I can find in Vegas is Sunoco GTX 260 98 Octane!

My stock KX450 calls for a MINIMUM of 90 with the stock CR over 12:1 which can easily handle more than 90 octane. I think once you go crazy to like C12 is when you see diminishing returns on the power... but what the hell do I know I just want consistency and I like the smell of C12 in my TMR built KX250 and the Sunoco smells pretty good in the 450 too!!!!
cslacker
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Glendale, AZ US
5/3/2017 12:54pm
Acidreamer wrote:
From my ass dyno i can say it makes a difference. My 450 has hotcams and a high compression piston. Pump gas is like garbage. Recently...
From my ass dyno i can say it makes a difference. My 450 has hotcams and a high compression piston. Pump gas is like garbage. Recently it decided not even to run on pump gas. So ive been using sunoco 110. My old yz250 called for a minimum of 95 octane and they dont sell that at the pump. So had to use race gas in that too.

The MAIN reason is having quality gas. We all spend so much time and money building and maintining our bikes with high end parts and meticulous labor. Why risk dirty ethonal dilluted pump gas in it? The gas pumps around me have sediment in them. Find it in new gas cans and in my mower gas tank. No bueno.
RickA wrote:
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas? Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my...
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas?
Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my bike angry. I hope it doesn't decide to stop running on race gas while your on the track

Gasoline is the most misunderstood and overly scrutinized piece of the combustion process that I have ever read.

Race gas does not matter if you don't have the compression to support it. It's a slower, longer burning fuel that will make less power all things being the same.
Ironic for the guy calling out others as "misunderstanding" race gas to post incorrect information about it: http://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/beyond-octane
Octane and burn speed are not the same thing.
MXD
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5/3/2017 12:55pm Edited Date/Time 5/3/2017 12:55pm
RickA wrote:
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas? Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my...
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas?
Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my bike angry. I hope it doesn't decide to stop running on race gas while your on the track

Gasoline is the most misunderstood and overly scrutinized piece of the combustion process that I have ever read.

Race gas does not matter if you don't have the compression to support it. It's a slower, longer burning fuel that will make less power all things being the same.
"Race gas does not matter if you don't have the compression to support it. It's a slower, longer burning fuel that will make less power all things being the same."

That is true with all things being equal. But the race gas will allow you to push your timing further than pump gas will and tune it more aggressively. That is where the benefit and added power comes in. But if you are just going to dump it in and expect it to make more power, it will not. In fact, if your engine was already jetted or mapped perfectly, adding race gas can make less power. If you dump a good quality oxygenated fuel in a stock bike that was maybe mapped a bit rich, it is conceivable that you would feel a bump on the butt dyno.
5/3/2017 12:56pm
You guys really need to find a Base Race Fuel dealer. I pay a little over $9 a gallon for leaded 112. The 114 is around $10 a gallon. Way cheaper than VP.
slowgti
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5/3/2017 12:56pm
RickA wrote:
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas? Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my...
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas?
Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my bike angry. I hope it doesn't decide to stop running on race gas while your on the track

Gasoline is the most misunderstood and overly scrutinized piece of the combustion process that I have ever read.

Race gas does not matter if you don't have the compression to support it. It's a slower, longer burning fuel that will make less power all things being the same.
Read the last paragraph a few times, especially if your bike runs premix.

My buddy had a banshee drag couch that was ported for 100 octane. He tried running some 112 in it and it lost a big amount of power. The pipes got so hot they started to bubble the plating off.
Kanista
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5/3/2017 12:57pm
Im not sure if the fuel standarts are the same in europe as in the states thought. Therefor im not sure if the OP can use your advices to his better.
zehn
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5/3/2017 1:07pm
We run 92 octane pump gas in our YZ125 and YZ250 with Yamalube 2T oil, never had a problem with it. We don't have ethanol in our fuel up here.
5/3/2017 1:10pm Edited Date/Time 5/3/2017 1:11pm
What kind of fuel do they have in Italy? Because I don't think you can compare with USA. In The Netherlands we have 95 or 98. 98 is good enough for a tuned 2 stroke in most cases. (there's no ethanol in both of them)
RickA
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5/3/2017 1:10pm
RickA wrote:
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas? Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my...
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas?
Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my bike angry. I hope it doesn't decide to stop running on race gas while your on the track

Gasoline is the most misunderstood and overly scrutinized piece of the combustion process that I have ever read.

Race gas does not matter if you don't have the compression to support it. It's a slower, longer burning fuel that will make less power all things being the same.
MXD wrote:
[b]"Race gas does not matter if you don't have the compression to support it. It's a slower, longer burning fuel that will make less power all...
"Race gas does not matter if you don't have the compression to support it. It's a slower, longer burning fuel that will make less power all things being the same."

That is true with all things being equal. But the race gas will allow you to push your timing further than pump gas will and tune it more aggressively. That is where the benefit and added power comes in. But if you are just going to dump it in and expect it to make more power, it will not. In fact, if your engine was already jetted or mapped perfectly, adding race gas can make less power. If you dump a good quality oxygenated fuel in a stock bike that was maybe mapped a bit rich, it is conceivable that you would feel a bump on the butt dyno.
Advancing timing beyond reasonable doesn't work. Like I said, I have ran 20 cars on the dyno at work, and it is what it is. Example, a Pontiac 400 generally likes about 36 degrees of advance.
Moving to 40 degrees BTDC doesn't yield any power gain, and beats the shit out of the main and rod bearings in comparison. Dropping to 34, power falls off.. moving past 42 the plugs start to glow red and the Motor will start popping.

Moving past 22 degrees of INITIAL timing leaves you a car that won't crank over and start.

Your timing is all in by 2200rpm, so what's the difference? We would run AvGas or C12 and nothing would change, except a loss of peak power.

If your dirt bike has 12:1 compression, and combustion chamber design likes "X" amount of advance, if the octane contents supports it, race gas won't help. Yes, if you upping the compression, it's a hot day, your lean, and running a long moto i would agree race gas in necessary. It is not the FUEL that's giving you the power, it's the mods you did. The fuel just gives you the ability to avoid detonation.

Now, if you want to run nitro methane, or alcohol that's something different. Anything that cools intake charge, or creates oxygen (like nitro methane does) your starting to have fun.

I don't think adding a little race fuel to your bike will hurt, maybe safe if you don't clean your radiators or it's extremely hot out. I just wouldn't go spend 10$ a gallon unless your trying to run a pro national.. of course, maybe you want to. I'm just being logical.. work on your corner speed
RickA
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5/3/2017 1:15pm
Acidreamer wrote:
From my ass dyno i can say it makes a difference. My 450 has hotcams and a high compression piston. Pump gas is like garbage. Recently...
From my ass dyno i can say it makes a difference. My 450 has hotcams and a high compression piston. Pump gas is like garbage. Recently it decided not even to run on pump gas. So ive been using sunoco 110. My old yz250 called for a minimum of 95 octane and they dont sell that at the pump. So had to use race gas in that too.

The MAIN reason is having quality gas. We all spend so much time and money building and maintining our bikes with high end parts and meticulous labor. Why risk dirty ethonal dilluted pump gas in it? The gas pumps around me have sediment in them. Find it in new gas cans and in my mower gas tank. No bueno.
RickA wrote:
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas? Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my...
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas?
Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my bike angry. I hope it doesn't decide to stop running on race gas while your on the track

Gasoline is the most misunderstood and overly scrutinized piece of the combustion process that I have ever read.

Race gas does not matter if you don't have the compression to support it. It's a slower, longer burning fuel that will make less power all things being the same.
cslacker wrote:
Ironic for the guy calling out others as "misunderstanding" race gas to post incorrect information about it: http://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/beyond-octane Octane and burn speed are not the same...
Ironic for the guy calling out others as "misunderstanding" race gas to post incorrect information about it: http://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/beyond-octane
Octane and burn speed are not the same thing.
Nickel Carbonyl, MMT manganese, lead, and other heavy metals are added to fuel to prevent detonation. They delay the ignition process under heated conditions, we make an Octane booster with MMT in it. I am aware of how this works, I did the testing.

Sunoco and VP wants you to buy fuel. It's good fuel.. I'm not denying that.
MXD
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5/3/2017 1:17pm
RickA wrote:
Advancing timing beyond reasonable doesn't work. Like I said, I have ran 20 cars on the dyno at work, and it is what it is. Example...
Advancing timing beyond reasonable doesn't work. Like I said, I have ran 20 cars on the dyno at work, and it is what it is. Example, a Pontiac 400 generally likes about 36 degrees of advance.
Moving to 40 degrees BTDC doesn't yield any power gain, and beats the shit out of the main and rod bearings in comparison. Dropping to 34, power falls off.. moving past 42 the plugs start to glow red and the Motor will start popping.

Moving past 22 degrees of INITIAL timing leaves you a car that won't crank over and start.

Your timing is all in by 2200rpm, so what's the difference? We would run AvGas or C12 and nothing would change, except a loss of peak power.

If your dirt bike has 12:1 compression, and combustion chamber design likes "X" amount of advance, if the octane contents supports it, race gas won't help. Yes, if you upping the compression, it's a hot day, your lean, and running a long moto i would agree race gas in necessary. It is not the FUEL that's giving you the power, it's the mods you did. The fuel just gives you the ability to avoid detonation.

Now, if you want to run nitro methane, or alcohol that's something different. Anything that cools intake charge, or creates oxygen (like nitro methane does) your starting to have fun.

I don't think adding a little race fuel to your bike will hurt, maybe safe if you don't clean your radiators or it's extremely hot out. I just wouldn't go spend 10$ a gallon unless your trying to run a pro national.. of course, maybe you want to. I'm just being logical.. work on your corner speed
I think we are saying the same thing. In messing with the ignition map on my bike, I found that it likes a bunch of advance down low and then I taper it off through the mid range. If I were running pump gas, maybe I'd be fine but I don't think I would try the ignition curve I'm currently running with a volatile pump gas with some unknown level of consistency. Detonation scares me. Maybe I'm being way over cautious.
Bruce372
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5/3/2017 1:35pm
its not about how good race fuel is or is not......its about how bad or really bad pump fuel can be.
cslacker
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Glendale, AZ US
5/3/2017 1:49pm
RickA wrote:
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas? Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my...
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas?
Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my bike angry. I hope it doesn't decide to stop running on race gas while your on the track

Gasoline is the most misunderstood and overly scrutinized piece of the combustion process that I have ever read.

Race gas does not matter if you don't have the compression to support it. It's a slower, longer burning fuel that will make less power all things being the same.
cslacker wrote:
Ironic for the guy calling out others as "misunderstanding" race gas to post incorrect information about it: http://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/beyond-octane Octane and burn speed are not the same...
Ironic for the guy calling out others as "misunderstanding" race gas to post incorrect information about it: http://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/beyond-octane
Octane and burn speed are not the same thing.
RickA wrote:
Nickel Carbonyl, MMT manganese, lead, and other heavy metals are added to fuel to prevent detonation. They delay the ignition process under heated conditions, we make...
Nickel Carbonyl, MMT manganese, lead, and other heavy metals are added to fuel to prevent detonation. They delay the ignition process under heated conditions, we make an Octane booster with MMT in it. I am aware of how this works, I did the testing.

Sunoco and VP wants you to buy fuel. It's good fuel.. I'm not denying that.
Preventing detonation is not the same as a slow flame speed. If you helped develop an octane booster I'm sure you know that. The problem with most octane boosters such as toluene is that they do decrease flame speed and throttle response which is why most people don't recommend them. After all you are just adding a chemical to an already crappy base fuel and expecting good results.

I understand sometimes a higher octane fuel is slower burning but it is not directly caused by octane. You said it is a slower burning fuel, that is not true in many cases. Sunoco Supreme is one of their fastest burning fuels(much faster than pump gas) and has 112 octane.

Detonation is an explosion, the ignition process is a controlled burn. Octane is the measurement of the ability to resist detonation. The speed of the ignition process is determined by the hydrocarbon makeup of the fuel. They are entirely separate
cslacker
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5/3/2017 1:50pm
Bruce372 wrote:
its not about how good race fuel is or is not......its about how bad or really bad pump fuel can be.
+1
Berni
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ES
5/3/2017 1:50pm
What kind of fuel do they have in Italy? Because I don't think you can compare with USA. In The Netherlands we have 95 or 98...
What kind of fuel do they have in Italy? Because I don't think you can compare with USA. In The Netherlands we have 95 or 98. 98 is good enough for a tuned 2 stroke in most cases. (there's no ethanol in both of them)
I think that you can not compare european gas to the gas in USA. At least here in spain (and probalby in italy too), gas is pretty consistent, nobody here runs race gas because there is no issue with regular gas pump, plus our octane rating system is different. I have never had the need to run more than 95 and I know nobody that had to, even a friend that have had two sxs ktm engines (125 and 250 4t) never had to run more than that.

Beside that, here you can leave pump gas for 6 months sitting in the carb, and no gum is going to form neither it is going to rust anything.
Acidreamer
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Mansfield, OH US
5/3/2017 1:57pm
Acidreamer wrote:
From my ass dyno i can say it makes a difference. My 450 has hotcams and a high compression piston. Pump gas is like garbage. Recently...
From my ass dyno i can say it makes a difference. My 450 has hotcams and a high compression piston. Pump gas is like garbage. Recently it decided not even to run on pump gas. So ive been using sunoco 110. My old yz250 called for a minimum of 95 octane and they dont sell that at the pump. So had to use race gas in that too.

The MAIN reason is having quality gas. We all spend so much time and money building and maintining our bikes with high end parts and meticulous labor. Why risk dirty ethonal dilluted pump gas in it? The gas pumps around me have sediment in them. Find it in new gas cans and in my mower gas tank. No bueno.
RickA wrote:
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas? Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my...
Wow, your bike decided not to even run on pump gas?
Was it hiding in a SAFE space or what? Remind me not to make my bike angry. I hope it doesn't decide to stop running on race gas while your on the track

Gasoline is the most misunderstood and overly scrutinized piece of the combustion process that I have ever read.

Race gas does not matter if you don't have the compression to support it. It's a slower, longer burning fuel that will make less power all things being the same.
It could have a different mapping or something from the previous owner. But regardless of that, when you get up to 14:1 cr and have other mods you need race gas. Thats according to everything ive ever read about race gas.
RickA
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Duluth, MN US
5/3/2017 1:57pm Edited Date/Time 5/3/2017 2:08pm
cslacker wrote:
Ironic for the guy calling out others as "misunderstanding" race gas to post incorrect information about it: http://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/beyond-octane Octane and burn speed are not the same...
Ironic for the guy calling out others as "misunderstanding" race gas to post incorrect information about it: http://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/beyond-octane
Octane and burn speed are not the same thing.
RickA wrote:
Nickel Carbonyl, MMT manganese, lead, and other heavy metals are added to fuel to prevent detonation. They delay the ignition process under heated conditions, we make...
Nickel Carbonyl, MMT manganese, lead, and other heavy metals are added to fuel to prevent detonation. They delay the ignition process under heated conditions, we make an Octane booster with MMT in it. I am aware of how this works, I did the testing.

Sunoco and VP wants you to buy fuel. It's good fuel.. I'm not denying that.
cslacker wrote:
Preventing detonation is not the same as a slow flame speed. If you helped develop an octane booster I'm sure you know that. The problem with...
Preventing detonation is not the same as a slow flame speed. If you helped develop an octane booster I'm sure you know that. The problem with most octane boosters such as toluene is that they do decrease flame speed and throttle response which is why most people don't recommend them. After all you are just adding a chemical to an already crappy base fuel and expecting good results.

I understand sometimes a higher octane fuel is slower burning but it is not directly caused by octane. You said it is a slower burning fuel, that is not true in many cases. Sunoco Supreme is one of their fastest burning fuels(much faster than pump gas) and has 112 octane.

Detonation is an explosion, the ignition process is a controlled burn. Octane is the measurement of the ability to resist detonation. The speed of the ignition process is determined by the hydrocarbon makeup of the fuel. They are entirely separate
Ugghhh.. why do I even comment. You should capitalIze the first letter in your name, it's grammatically incorrect. If Sunoco Supreme has Ethanol, MTBE, or Any other Alcohol in it, it will burn faster under the same compression. I'm pretty sure, could be wrong.

I hope your burn rate is long enough to chase the piston to the bottom. Good luck, I would buy the MOST expensive fuel you can find. It will make the difference, now everyone is happy.
Good day.
gt80rider
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5/3/2017 2:01pm
These gas threads always turn into a train wreck. Fun to read train wrecks at that.
MX690
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AU
5/3/2017 3:55pm
VxeR wrote:
I mean, I see all those guys talking about race fuel and I'm just here running pump gas with Motul 800 in my 125. Does it...
I mean, I see all those guys talking about race fuel and I'm just here running pump gas with Motul 800 in my 125. Does it make a big difference?
The guy twisting the throttle makes a bigger difference than what race fuel will.

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